Bilingualism required in Canadian Forces: Good or Bad?

Should the Canadian militay become universally bilingual and allow foreigners to join?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Looking at the situation in Iraq and the rest of Arabia right now, along with Iran and Afghanistan, it would seem that the presence of foreign soldiers in a land which whose culture they are completely ignorant are causing more and more PR scandals day after day. So my question is this:

Would it be wise for the military to require all members to be bilingual, even if that means having to hire foreigners?

Some advantages I could see with this:

1. In the event that Canada must go to another country to fight, it can gather it's troops who can speak the local language and are familiar with the local culture. In the case of Afghanista, for instance, immagine Canadian soldiers who can speak Dari or Pashta, and who might have some familiarity with Islam and Afghan culture, along with their do's and dont's.

2. Canadian military strategists, when considering the plan of attack in another country, could consult with their own troops and see what would be culturally acceptabel and not, very clearly before war even begins. Let's say, for instance, that Canada is about to go into Afghanista and, according to current strategy, the Afghan platoons thow down their arms in rage saying there is no way in hell they're going to do that, then we know how the locals are going to react! So the strategy could be catered to deal with PR problem early. In the event that there is a shortage of such soldiers, then they can be placed as consultants within each platoon.

Perhaps the closest example to such a concept today would be the French Foreing Legion. But here I'm expanding a similar concept across the board to the Canadian military.

As for disadvantages, certainly it would mean taht only those Canadians who are bilingual (and this does not limit itself to French and English) could work in the military. It would also mean that military strategy would need to be more well thought out and not just rushed through at a whim, so as to ensure that local circumstances are considered. This could of course lead to more limitations as to the extent to which the military could be used.

I came to this idea after looking at how the major obstacle for the US and UK in Iraq right now does in fact seem to be a culture clash above all else. And since the soldiers know little about Islam, and even less Arabic, they are simply not in any position to solve these clashes beyond Abu ghraib style sharades.

So what would be your thoughts on this?
 

missile

House Member
Dec 1, 2004
4,846
17
38
Saint John N.B.
If the Army is going into a peacekeeping situation,understanding the native languages is preferable. But,if going in to fight, bullets do all the talking necessary.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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missile said:
If the Army is going into a peacekeeping situation,understanding the native languages is preferable. But,if going in to fight, bullets do all the talking necessary.

Good point. Then let's talk about peace keeping, since that is the bulk of operations anyway. And even when it is to fight, PR is still importan; it was in Vietnam, and due to PR failure on the US' part, they lost the war despite superior technology. Iraq started as a war likewise, and still is. yet there likewise, PR proves crucial to success or failure. But how to achieve that when troops can't even speak the local language beyond "Shut up!"?
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Bilingualism in the Canadian Armed Forces

In my opinion, bilingualism should not be a prerequisite for joining the Canadian Armed Forces. However, I would like to assert that the arguments given above are quite true and good ideas, and even if we do not require that a member of the Armed Forces can speak two languages, we should put those who can, to good use.

I would assert that the guidelines here should be adopted.

1. In order to serve in the Canadian Armed Forces, one must be able to speak one of either French, English, or both.

2. Wherever possible, Her Excellency the Right Honourable Governor General shall not authorize any military procedure abroad unless he or she has first commissioned and consulted a Committee on Cultural Consideration, upon which Her Excellency will depend for advice pertaining to cultural considerations in relation to the particular situation, to be formed for that purpose and dissolved no more than three months after such action has ceased.

3. The Right Honourable Prime Minister, the Honourable Minister of Defence, and the Honourable Minister of Multiculturalism shall serve as de facto members of each and every Committee on Cultural Consideration, and Her Excellency shall serve as the Chair of any such Committees; she may, however, appoint Deputy Chairpersons to assume her responsibilities as the case may warrant.

4. Her Excellency the Governor General may, on the advice of the Cabinet, authorize such military action notwithstanding any objections of the Committee on Cultural Consideration, only where:

(a) there is a good-faith belief that such action is immediately necessary to protect Canada;

(b) the House of Commons and the Senate both pass resolutions by two-thirds majorities, that the Canadian Armed Forces be authorized to proceed notwithstanding the objections of the Committee.
 

missile

House Member
Dec 1, 2004
4,846
17
38
Saint John N.B.
To some points i agree, but no amount of PR would have won Vietnam for the Yanks and the same goes for Iraq. The ideal peacekeeping force should be mostly native troops and our advisors in the command positions; and of course,the leaders should be well versed in local languages,customs,religions,etc. On the other hand,that was the American strategy in Vietnam :(
 

The Gunslinger

Electoral Member
May 12, 2005
169
0
16
Wetaskiwin, AB
I'm going to go out on a limb and say no. My reasoning being that in the event of emergency, a military working in one language instead of two suffers less of a risk in translation errors, etc.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
Agreed with Gunslinger on the errors of communication. But I would be for, billingual as a good choice. That the Canadian forces will look highly of you if you have two languages of any kind under your belt, and will accept you over a unillingal guy for a position or job.

However I don't think uniligual people should be forced out of the army or CF.
 

The Gunslinger

Electoral Member
May 12, 2005
169
0
16
Wetaskiwin, AB
To some points i agree, but no amount of PR would have won Vietnam for the Yanks and the same goes for Iraq

The media lost the Vietnam war, not the Americans, they were doing well in Vietnam if you look at the numbers. If America had invaded North Vietnam, they probablty could have won. As for Iraq... Iraq has been a massive disaster from day one, so I can't argue with you there.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
So.... is Canada going to invade France soon?

If you are speaking languages, you might use the term multi-lingual - as the whole world does not speak French and English.

Military use very distinct orders and they are easily interchangeable from one language to another - it is sort of universal shorthand. The less spoken the more security is afforded any military ground movements.

When occupying a foreign nation usually there are interpreters assigned to units who do the talking with the locals. The grunts are supposed to be doing other things than having a chat.
 

DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
You poll is not very good. You ask two completely independent questions in the same sentence, yet you still have only yes and no as possible responses.

How can I answer yes to one question and no to another? If I click other, what information can you really gather?

Sorry, I'm a scientist, so details are important to me.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
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The Gunslinger said:
To some points i agree, but no amount of PR would have won Vietnam for the Yanks and the same goes for Iraq

The media lost the Vietnam war, not the Americans, they were doing well in Vietnam if you look at the numbers. If America had invaded North Vietnam, they probablty could have won. As for Iraq... Iraq has been a massive disaster from day one, so I can't argue with you there.

I think we are doing a heck of a lot better in Iraq than Vietnam. Vietnam was really lost the minute we arrived. The war in Vietnam was unwinnable with the way it was fought. Now I am not talking about the way our troops fought in the field but the strategy of the war. US Troops could not go into N. Vietnam, whereas the NVA flowed across the border.

It is true that the US Troops thumped the NVA and VC in every major engagement. And sure the NVA and VC on occasion would catch a squad or platoon off guard and do a number on them before melting away but the US did out gun them day in and day out.

One of my favorite quotes was from an NVA General who was speaking to a US Army Col. in France long after the North defeated the S. Vietnamese Army. The US Col said

"You never beat us on the battlefield. We beat you every time."

The NVA General said

"That is true... but it is also irrelavent."

Touche

In Iraq I think we have a chance to make this work. Some people say it is a disaster because I think deep down they WANT it to be a disaster. As far as the Democrats are concerned I strongly believe that they would rather, MUCH RATHER lose this fight and win back the White House than visa versa.

Iraq isn't a popular war but that does not mean it is unwinnable. If the Iraqi Army can one day stand on their feet and rid the country of Baathsism and foreign fighters then they will prevail. Do you think Iraqi's like Syrian and Morroccan fighters (for example) driving car bombs into their Police Stations?

Time will tell. But don't wish and hope for a US defeat because you hate GW.
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
1
38
Edmonton
RE: Bilingualism required

Would it be wise for the military to require all members to be bilingual, even if that means having to hire foreigners?

Uh sorry to burst that bubble there chet, but when you start hiring foreigners to do your military work, we call them mercenaries. This is....yes, this is the stupidest idea I have ever read/heard.

NOw to shoot down your "pros"

1. In the event that Canada must go to another country to fight, it can gather it's troops who can speak the local language and are familiar with the local culture. In the case of Afghanista, for instance, immagine Canadian soldiers who can speak Dari or Pashta, and who might have some familiarity with Islam and Afghan culture, along with their do's and dont's

1. So you're suggesting that only people with an Arab background, who speak the lingo should deploy? So we'd have, right now, 2,500 non-Canadians, directed by non-Canadians, representing a Canada they don't care about in Afghanistan? Do you stop to think before you start typing, or are you huffing gas?

2. Canadian military strategists, when considering the plan of attack in another country, could consult with their own troops and see what would be culturally acceptabel and not, very clearly before war even begins. Let's say, for instance, that Canada is about to go into Afghanista and, according to current strategy, the Afghan platoons thow down their arms in rage saying there is no way in hell they're going to do that, then we know how the locals are going to react! So the strategy could be catered to deal with PR problem early. In the event that there is a shortage of such soldiers, then they can be placed as consultants within each platoon.

Perhaps the closest example to such a concept today would be the French Foreing Legion. But here I'm expanding a similar concept across the board to the Canadian military.

As for disadvantages, certainly it would mean taht only those Canadians who are bilingual (and this does not limit itself to French and English) could work in the military. It would also mean that military strategy would need to be more well thought out and not just rushed through at a whim, so as to ensure that local circumstances are considered. This could of course lead to more limitations as to the extent to which the military could be used.

So we'd put everything to a democratic vote? So tomorrow for example, I have a 10km run with my unit at 7am, and if we all just don't show up, does the Regimental Sergeant Major just assume it was a bad idea and live with it? So your plan, would have non-Canadians throughout the Army making calls on how the Army was run, and when and where it deployed? Once again, are you high?

The French Foreign Legion is NOTHING like you're suggesting. The Legion is simply a mix of men and women from all walks of life who sign up to serve France's interests. What you may fail to realize is that somewhere in the neighbourhood of 90% of Legionaries are wanted criminals in their home nations, something the Legion gives them amnesty from. Furthermore the Legion is still controlled by the French Army and respectively the French Government. The Legion doesn't decide when or where it goes dude.

You clearly have no concept of combined operations or even how the military works. You suggest that only people who speak more than one language could join the Army. See, we have a word for that in our society, it's called discrimination. Furthermore if this magical army did exist, how would you plan on staffing an effective force is you placed such ridgid restrictions on recruitment? We have a hard time recruitng as it is, yet you'd suggest we scrap everyone who is monoligual, me for instance?

And since the soldiers know little about Islam, and even less Arabic, they are simply not in any position to solve these clashes beyond Abu ghraib style sharades.

When the 3rd Canadian Division landed on Juno Beach on D-Day during World War II, they knew nothing about France, or Holland, or Germany, and their ways of life. In the 40's the world was isolated pockets of cultures, there was no cross talk as there is today. Yet those men that landed in 1944 kicked the German's asses back to Berlin over the next year. My point? A Division of mainly english Canadians sailed 1/2 way across the World to a continent, but a handful had ever read about, let alone been to, and they won. Language and cultural acceptance has nothing to do with winning a war.

Good point. Then let's talk about peace keeping, since that is the bulk of operations anyway. And even when it is to fight, PR is still importan; it was in Vietnam, and due to PR failure on the US' part, they lost the war despite superior technology. Iraq started as a war likewise, and still is. yet there likewise, PR proves crucial to success or failure. But how to achieve that when troops can't even speak the local language beyond "Shut up!"?

Man, you're totally embodying their peacekeeping stance that every Canadian takes. We haven't deployed for peacekeeping since Operation ADDITION, our mission to Eritrea in 2000. I hate how Canadians have this vision that we're a peacekeeping military, when we've spent more time at war in the last 100 years than peacekeeping. News flash, Macedonia, Bosnia, Afghanistan, those were/are warzones, there are no blue berets there. When you see pictures of troops in Afghanistan, are they waving U.N. Flags and wearing blue berets? No, because they're not over there peacekeeping, contrary to what the news says. They're conducting combat operations. Also I think I pointed this out once before on another forum macho, the U.S. didn't lose Vietnam because of "PR", they lost because by the end their main source of fighting men were hippy dope-smoking draftees. Lastly, when Canadians deploy overseas, they take weeks of language training. When we deploy to Afghanistan we're given phrase books and quized on phrases common to the locals. So your take on us not knowing anything beyond "shut up" is slightly misguided my friend.

I would like to sum up with saying that this idea is the dumbest thing i've heard of next to Jonathan Swift suggestion the Irish peasents feed their babies to the rich.

P.S. Anyone that voted yes to this idea is a moron. No offense :roll:
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
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2. Canadian military strategists, when considering the plan of attack in another country, could consult with their own troops and see what would be culturally acceptabel and not, very clearly before war even begins. Let's say, for instance, that Canada is about to go into Afghanista and, according to current strategy, the Afghan platoons thow down their arms in rage saying there is no way in hell they're going to do that, then we know how the locals are going to react! So the strategy could be catered to deal with PR problem early. In the event that there is a shortage of such soldiers, then they can be placed as consultants within each platoon.

Wow... Are you off your rocker? They should consult their own troops and see how they would react?

You must be smoking some pretty powerful stuff up there.

Democracy in the military... what a laugh. If that is your idea I hope you are planning for a lot of failed missions.

"OK soldiers we are going in."
"No way Sir!"
"Hmmm.... ok... let us sit down and talk about our emotions and feelings."
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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Ottawa, ON
Re: RE: Bilingualism required in Canadian Forces: Good or Ba

The Gunslinger said:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say no. My reasoning being that in the event of emergency, a military working in one language instead of two suffers less of a risk in translation errors, etc.

Sorry, I should have clarified. My idea was that one common language would still be required.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Jersay said:
Agreed with Gunslinger on the errors of communication. But I would be for, billingual as a good choice. That the Canadian forces will look highly of you if you have two languages of any kind under your belt, and will accept you over a unillingal guy for a position or job.

However I don't think uniligual people should be forced out of the army or CF.

I was thinking more for new recruits only.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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Ottawa, ON
Wednesday's Child said:
So.... is Canada going to invade France soon?

If you are speaking languages, you might use the term multi-lingual - as the whole world does not speak French and English.

Military use very distinct orders and they are easily interchangeable from one language to another - it is sort of universal shorthand. The less spoken the more security is afforded any military ground movements.

When occupying a foreign nation usually there are interpreters assigned to units who do the talking with the locals. The grunts are supposed to be doing other things than having a chat.

First off, bilingual does not mean specifically English and Frenhc (that's a misconception among some Canadians). And secondly, so few people are multilingual that it would be hard to enfoece such a standard; I think bilingual would suffice.

And even with French and English, should Canadian and French peace keepers be in the same area, for instance, this could also be useful to help integrate their operations and avoid various disasters such as friendsly fire, etc. Don't forget likewise that French is spoken in Haiti and many parts of Africa.

I'm well aware that interpreters are provided, but they can't be everywhere all the time, so just immagine how much crucial exchange of information is being lost daily and resulting in lethal misunderstandings and animosites. After all, we are talking about life, death and potential clashes of civilizations.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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Ottawa, ON
Re: RE: Bilingualism required in Canadian Forces: Good or Ba

DasFX said:
You poll is not very good. You ask two completely independent questions in the same sentence, yet you still have only yes and no as possible responses.

How can I answer yes to one question and no to another? If I click other, what information can you really gather?

Sorry, I'm a scientist, so details are important to me.

Good point. Then I'll just recommend voting yes or no to both together, and I included other just in case there is still confusion. You're right, I should have made two separate polls for that I suppose. But I think one reason I put them together is taht I suspects that to make bilingualism compulsory and still not have a shortage of applicants might in fact require hiring qualified applicants from abroad.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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48
Ottawa, ON
EagleSmack said:
Iraq isn't a popular war but that does not mean it is unwinnable. If the Iraqi Army can one day stand on their feet and rid the country of Baathsism and foreign fighters then they will prevail. Do you think Iraqi's like Syrian and Morroccan fighters (for example) driving car bombs into their Police Stations?

That was the kind of thought which motivated this poll. People will always respect their own countrymen over people they perceive to be foreign to them. If they can't speak the language, know nothing of the local religion, etc., then it will be hard to win their hearts and minds. The Iraqi army is made up of Iraqis, fluent in Arabic, fighting on their own soil for their own country. They can win the hearts and minds of the people; the US army can never do that. And quite honestly, if Canada were there, it could never do it too under its current structure which is really the same as that of the US army, with all its flaws.