Socialists: For the people?

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
Now i think that it seems to be left-leaning, or socialist people who truly believe in true human rights for all people and all classes and minorities and women, and etc, etc.

While other people are more interested in making money and not interested in their fellow man.

For example;

Tommy Douglas (1904 -1986) was one of Canada's best known New Democrats. He was a man of many talents and, being involved in politics since 1936, he is renowned for various reasons.

The "Mouseland" story is a small sample of the wit and humour many people knew him for. To see and listen to Tommy Douglas in person was a rare treat. Tommy was a most accomplished orator.

Some people saw Tommy Douglas as a true democratic socialist, someone who placed human rights and needs above the mere pursuit of profits and power. Such principles should be implemented at the wish of the majority of the people. A social minded government would plan the economy of the country to allow all people to share in the country's wealth and have equal access to such basic needs as health and education.

Others saw Tommy as a great politician whose natural speaking, story telling and debating abilities helped bring social change to the country. Tommy was first elected to the House of Commons in Ottawa in 1936. He later switched to provincial politics and it was during his years as Premier of Saskatchewan that Medicare was first introduced to North America. Prior to Medicare, health care services were only available to those who could pay the price.

When the C.C.F. (Co-operative Commonwealth Federation) was renamed the New Democratic Party in 1961, Tommy Douglas was chosen as the Leader of the New Party until he resigned in 1971.

Tommy Douglas relates his message of social democracy in such a fashion that any audience can understand even the most complicated issue and be well entertained at the same time.

To social minded people everywhere, Tommy Douglas remains a constant source of inspiration.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
So are socialist like good old Tommy Douglas, the hero of most socialists in Canada, care more about the people than other kinds of people.

Do socialists care more about minorities and women and working-class people more than other people?

This doesn't involve any systems or political inititives they have used but do they fundamentally care more about people.

Except for the rich. :D
 

thulin

Electoral Member
Jan 30, 2006
147
0
16
Jersay said:
Do socialists care more about minorities and women and working-class people more than other people?
Here is a subject I know - first hand. Some socialists think they care more about their fellow man, and others don´t - but claim they do.

The truth is that they don´t care more than anobody else, they just get off thinking they do - or chase perks society throws their way as politicians in a HUGE public sector.
 

pastafarian

Electoral Member
Oct 25, 2005
541
0
16
in the belly of the mouse
Some socialists think they care more about their fellow man, and others don´t - but claim they do.

I'd have to agree on that. The flipside of that coin is that I have friend who claim they are Capitalists through-and-through, hate the "nanny-state", resent every penny of tax money they pay, but who organize clothing drives for the poor, volunteer at soup kitchens, help out their neighbours at every opportunity...

I'd say socialism tends to be more humane than capitalism, the rhetoric surely is, and there is deifnitely a greedy "f*** you pal, as long as I've got mine" strain among True-Believer capitalists, but many would say that a rsing tide floats all boats and that capitalism is the only practical system to end deprivation.

My own view is that a mixed system works best (Canada's got a pretty good system, but could be a bit more socialist for my taste).

Perhaps in some future Utopia, we can eliminate the idea of private (I don't mean personal) property) altogether and we'd have a better world, but it ain't gonna be for a few hundred years, if it's possible at all.

I agree with those who say that the possibility of wealth does spur innovation and effort, so maybe socialist utopias are just as scary as capitalist dystopias.
 

thulin

Electoral Member
Jan 30, 2006
147
0
16
pastafarian
I can live with paying a total 25-35% tax on everything I earn if everyone else would do just that. Those money should cover law enforcement, defence force, health care (financing, not operating), fire department, some infra structure, minimum social welfare for those in real need and at least 12 years of good education.

I can clearly see the point of this for everyone, but I can´t really call it socialsm - and trust me, I know about socialism. I´ve been in DDR just after the wall fell, former Jugoslavia, Bulgaria, Estonia, Venezuela - and of course - my own home country Sweden (even though Sweden is not completely comparable eith the first five). I´ve studied political science, history of economics and have written a paper on Karl Marx.

I would call it an organized, democratic society.

Asking for more socialism..? Gee, you don´t know what you are asking for, corrupt politicians buying their way to power with your money - and then smack you in the face when entering office...
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
38
www.kdm.ca
well, we need to work on the path from here to the non-monetary society.

We need to adapt captialistic mechanisms to social-democtatic principles to provide the underlying foundation for a fully enabled society.

Most importantly, we must ensure the system is always reflective of, and responsive to, the nature of its members. So long as the materialistic greed of the individual exists, society must work to control and balance it. Change their mind-sets, and you change society's ways.
 

Alberta'sfinest

Electoral Member
Dec 9, 2005
217
0
16
RE: Socialists: For the p

I'm a socialist, and I care about my fellow man. Even if I become extremely wealthy, I'll still care about everyone. I don't hate rich people either, only those who lack a social conscience, or simply, a conscience, but that doesn't just apply to rich people. The majority of businessmen are rich because they are good at exploiting people, resources, and situations that are profitable.

Rich people hate things like public healthcare, not because they have to pay more, which they don't, but because It's a market of gaurenteed profit which they aren't allowed to touch. They know that there is no better investment than one that has a gaurenteed demand, with lucritive profits. Not only would they make a lot of money on Healthcare, but even more money can be made on private insurance.

The private insurance industry is merely a scam that allows rich people to use their vast wealth, to force the population to give them money. Or in other words, a way for the rich to tax the poor. To drive my car I have to pay $1600 a year for basic insurance. Insurance companies here in alberta paid out less than they took in, then made a shitload of interest on top of that money before it's paid out, and even more on the money that was never paid out. Then the profits are sent out to the rich people who own the insurance companies.

However, unlike some socialists, I believe the private sector is more efficient, and I support a two teired healthcare system with a socialist twist.

That twist would simply be a heavy tax on private care, which would be covered by your private insurance. The Tax could be up to 100% on the procedure, so every knee replacement that is done in a private clinic, pays for a knee replacement in the public system. This would gaurentee that no matter how well the private system did, the public system would do just as well. This kind of setup would reduce waiting times as people would use private hospitals more, while simultaneousely adding the extra funding to increase the quality of care in the public system, and everyone would win.

For insurance, I'd make it law that for every year that you don't have to make a claim, a certain percentage of your premium should result in shares of the company. By being a good driver your shares would grow and grow and your premium would eventually be subsidized by your profits from the company, this way everyone builds a nestegg for retirement, and are rewarded for being a good driver.

To me, it should be our priority as a society to reduce the net cost of living for everyone. When the poor pays less for insurance, Healthcare, and other essentials, they have more money to spend on products, or require less pay, which makes rich people richer. Having a healthy and happy workforce both physically and mentally, is the key to huge profits. History shows that when the wealthy don't help the poor to help themselves, the poor become resentful and rebell, and the wealth is redistributed once again.
 

thulin

Electoral Member
Jan 30, 2006
147
0
16
Re: RE: Socialists: For the people?

the caracal kid said:
So long as the materialistic greed of the individual exists, society must work to control and balance it
Why? Is "society" just another lobbyist organisation working its ass off to manipulate or consciousness in hope of a reaction leading towards the universal goal of mankind - sorry - society, oh no - lobbyist... Whatever...

Margaret Thatcher once said "There is no society, there are only individuals". Well, society is a defenition, since it does´nt exist - it can´t have an oppinion or a goal - only individuals can.

Have you read Ayn Rands, "Atlas Shrugged?
 

tawker

Electoral Member
RE: Socialists: For the p

Well, socialism is all fine and dandy but someone has to earn the funding to pay for the services. If you take too much from the hard worker he will have no incentive to preform (no benefit to them) and our society is screwed.

I think the Liberals are our best bet long term once they get their issues sorted out. The NDP is WAY too socialist at the moment, the Conservatives are too right wing nutjob's for me.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
38
www.kdm.ca
thulin,

society is a system. the system itself can be directed by the actions of nodes of itself.

The collective, in its ability to comprehend the magnitude of its impact, if interested in self preservation will act to balance out the actions of all.

As much as there is no society, there are also no individuals, if you want to go that route.
 

pastafarian

Electoral Member
Oct 25, 2005
541
0
16
in the belly of the mouse
Asking for more socialism..? Gee, you don´t know what you are asking for, corrupt politicians buying their way to power with your money - and then smack you in the face when entering office...

I should have realized that words like "socialism" and "capitalism" mean different things to different people. When I speak of "socialism" I mean public ownership of public service providers, administered by an accountable, democratically-elected government.

I mean factories owned by taxpayers, by the people who founded them or by the people who work in them, not by parasites whose "work" consists of phoning their brokers to buy or dump shares bought with money they inherited from robber-baron ancestors.

I don't mean Stalinism or State Capitalism.

If the leaders are not elected then i don't call it socialism.

Capital and profits are taxed on a sliding scale.

Companies pay taxes for infrastructure based on what they use: a company with a large groung-shipping fleet pays a lot towards road maintenance, for example. "Externalities" such as pollution are used to calculate corporate taxes. Taxes are gauged by the amount of local employment and cash back to the local economies provided by companies that operate in them etc., etc.

Taxes provide the services we have now in Canada, but adding non-cosmetic dental care and more grants/bursaries for deserving post-secondary students.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

ETA: Maggie Thatcher is not only an evil DOB, she's completely wrong in that stupid quote. Unless democracy can't exist and there are no communities and groups of people can't agree on things.

Ayn Rand wrote mediocre fiction.
 

thulin

Electoral Member
Jan 30, 2006
147
0
16
I really can´t get myself caught in discussions like this one... Last time (swedish forum with a hard core socialist) I almost got a heart attack - and started looking around for somewhere else to live (me on this this forum is part of that project).

If you would only read one political / philosophic book in your entire life, read Ayn Rands "Atlas Shrugged".
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
68
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
Maggie Thatcher said it for effect.

She said it Only to emphasize that individuals make separate decisions that when taken in the aggregate move consumer markets, move social trends, move the critical mass to accept certain ideas.

And many things, many major forces do arise from
the bottom up by some unity of individually made decisions.

Consumer markets are such an example.

How much the top and the bottom influence each other
or feed on each other is of no matter to me except
to make a case for synchronicity.

But both capitalist and socialist extremism has some
maniacal tendencies to take away an individual's personal
property.

And that's the issue here, because our own self interest
is what's going to add up to the aggregate.

And our own self interest is not a narrow concept
but one broad enough to include all what we see (NOT WHAT YOU SEE) is our self interest.
 

Alberta'sfinest

Electoral Member
Dec 9, 2005
217
0
16
RE: Socialists: For the p

I don't think anyone is truly individual, most people can be easily classified despite what those people think. Society however, is nothing more than a mob currently. A true society recognizes that we are all individuals, stays away from nationalism and idealism, and should focus on creating a condition where are individualism is unrestrained by what the majority thinks. Mutual respect within our society can only be achieved when nobody is discriminated against, even for things like drug use, or homesexuality. By respecting others rights to live their life as long as they aren't killing people, stealing, or breaking some other obvious law, is how we create communities that have mutual respect, the citizens respect themselves, and killing and stealing become things of the past. Most of the social problems I see in my community today, are results of spin-off crimes created by bad policy. Civil disobedience is the result of inequities within society, inequities that aren't necessary and could be easily rectified. Unfortunately, our societies are just mobs that feel they're right because they're on the side of the majority, but hey, Nazi's fealt like they were on the right side too.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
68
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
You don't think anyone is truly individual ?
And you think a true society would recognize
that we are all individuals ?

That's kind of contradictory?

Do you presume that you as an individual can only
be an individual if society recognizes you as one ?

Is individual-ness an idea only bestowed by a
right-thinking society ?

And do you presume no individual can be one
unless the group mindthink says so?

I'd rather you not reply.

And let these questions remain unanswered.
 

Alberta'sfinest

Electoral Member
Dec 9, 2005
217
0
16
RE: Socialists: For the p

Sorry about the confusing way I wrote that.
Truly individual, means that you have no common traits or similarities with anyone. Nobody is like that.

However, each of us is an individual, as in we aren't a collective conscience, and have our own individual body.

Another way to look at it would be to say society is a piece of skin. The skin can be cut down and seperated into individual cells, but no matter how many ways you look at them, they all look similar, have a similar task, and even the same DNA base. Although the cells can be seen as individual, they aren't truly individual from eachother, and are all just a piece of skin.

If you don't understand, ask for clarification. "assumption is the mother of all f*&%-ups"
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
"The essence of socialism is the attenuation and ultimate abolition of private property rights. When this is done privately we call it theft. When it's done collectively we use the euphemisms: income transfers or redistribution."
 

Alberta'sfinest

Electoral Member
Dec 9, 2005
217
0
16
RE: Socialists: For the p

I think that pretty much everyone can agree that full-out socialism is doomed to fail, because those who feel superior would be forced to swallow their own feelings, and except equality, when we aren't equal. We all deserve equal rights, have equal responsibilities in society, but our potential for greatness is not equal, so someones greatness must be sacrificed to the level of average, which breeds contempt. Communism failed for the same reason.
Capitalism has the opposite problem. The people who are superior within society excel, as the system is primarily geared towards this type of person. Meanwhile, the people who are average get the shaft, because they can't compete on the same ground as those who are superior, but still want to live a descent life, and want the social nets to help them up when they fail.
The obvious solution is that we need to find the mid-ground where those who are superior are allowed to excel, but are limited within reason to gaurentee a minimum quality of life for everyone else. This means a mixed economy, and a semi-social government. I love Canada because I believe we are the closest, but we need to learn to spot those who aren't average and support them so that they can reach their full potential, and in turn society would benefit from their achievements. This doesn't mean that they should be allowed to use their talents to exploit, or do anything counterproductive to the advancement of society. The US is also very close, but they're on the other side of the line where the superior people amongst them rule and control, once that is limited to a tolerable level, they will also achieve the best compromise.
Basically we need to quit working for perfection of our society, and work towards a compromise that allows for everyone to do well, and some to do better. If there is no compromise, we will only breed endless hate creating conflict after conflict between the average person who'd be happy with equality, and the above average people who know they aren't equal.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
A Bird's Eye View of Socialism

By Bertell Ollman

I. The American humorist, James Thurber, tells the story of a friend who asked him, "How is your wife?" to which Thurber replied, "Compared to what?" Most judgments in our lives involve comparisons of one sort or another, but comparisons to what? The comparison we choose, and we often do so unconsciously, will decisively affect the judgment we make.

What object of comparison shall we use to judge American society? Contrary to what we are usually told by defenders of the status quo, it should not be some other country with a very different history and unique conditions. Those differences ensure that they couldn't be like us even if they wanted to, nor we like them. Hence, it makes little sense to respond to criticisms of the U.S. by saying—"Well, you're eating better than you would in India." With our particular history and conditions, the U.S. has the potential for being something other, something more, something much better than it is. Just as one judges an athlete's performance by what he or she can do, we should judge American society by what it could be, given all it has going for it. Given, therefore, our wealth, industry, skills, democratic traditions, and other conditions, what judgments can we make about our nation today?

If a man has lost his legs, that is a sufficient explanation for why he can't run. It doesn't make sense to add that he also uses a faulty technique in trying to run. Similarly, after recognizing that Russia in 1917 and China in 1949 had none of the material conditions Marx considered essential for developing socialism, does it make any sense to add that they also followed faulty strategies or that their experience shows that socialism can't work? In the case of our legless man, this shifts the blame to him. In the case of Russia and China, it blames their political leaders or the very idea of socialism. In short, it is one thing to mention the impossible situation in which these regimes began (most writers do, if only briefly); it is another to draw the logical consequences of such an admission (most don't).

While the so-called "socialist countries" were not in any position to build socialism, this does not mean they did not ameliorate the material existence of most of their citizens (something Eastern Europeans are increasingly willing to admit). Nor does it follow, since capitalism succeeded in accumulating wealth in Western Europe and a few other countries, that it could do so everywhere. Noting the absence of socialism in the so-called "socialist countries," should not be taken as a rejection of all these countries achieved, or as a backhanded endorsement of the capitalist road to development, with all its horrors and inconclusive results. Instead, we must examine what capitalism is and what we can do with the means it has made available to resolve the very problems it has created. Only then can we see whether socialism has become a real possibility.

II. Imagine walking down a clean street, encountering friendly people, and knowing that everyone you see has enough to eat and a decent place to live. You do not fear being robbed or otherwise abused, and the only police you see are directing traffic. Imagine that you are going to a job you enjoy, where you are respected, not overworked, and where all your suggestions are taken seriously; and that afterwards you meet with friends to pursue common interests with no worry about educational or medical bills that spoil most of our good times. Is this heaven? No, it's socialism, or what our capitalist society can become once we rationally re-order it, replacing capitalist conditions with new rules, new priorities and new decision makers. What might this look like?

In socialism, you will help make the decisions now made by the president and board of trustees of your university, by the boss on your job, by your landlord, by the owners of newspapers, TV stations, movie studios, and sports franchises, and by government officials at all levels. Extending democracy—the rule of the people—into all areas of society is the key difference. It is the socialist alternative to the dictatorship of money, and of those who have it, that dominates life in capitalist society. And everywhere, the aim of maximizing profit for the few will be replaced by the human aim of serving social needs.

In the economy, this means making more of the things people really need—which in our wealthy country could eliminate poverty in a few years—but also making them better and distributing them more fairly, while showing an equal concern for preserving the environment, protecting workers' health, and reducing work hours (all important "social needs"). This can occur because all the factors of production available to society would be put to full use. There would be no idle machines, wasted raw materials, and, above all, no unemployed workers. Recall the $13 trillion spent on arms since World War II, the waste in what gets made and in what doesn't, the conspicuous baubles of the rich, and all the money spent on repression and on brainwashing to keep people from asking just these kinds of questions. View all this in light of the rapid advances being made in automation, computerization, and robotization, and then tell me it can't be done.

The institutional form of democracy that will enable people to participate in making decisions on all such matters range from self-management committees at workplaces, schools, and home communities, to local councils, to national and world governments, to a central planning and coordinating board, whose members will be elected by everyone and whose priorities will be set, after general debate, by majority rule.

Though some small businesses will remain privately owned when socialism begins, the goal is to achieve full public ownership of the means of production and the social means of consumption (parks, railroads, and so forth), but not private means of consumption (cars, clothes, homes, and so forth), as soon as possible. By abolishing inheritance for everything but personal effects, even small capitalists won't be able to leave their businesses to their children, who will have to find real jobs like everyone else.

On the job, wage differentials, though greatly reduced, will exist as long as there are some people who require this kind of incentive to do their best. Over time, as other incentives, such as pride in a job well done, the praise of one's co-workers, and the satisfaction in serving the community, replace the desire to get rich and the fear of being poor (since there will no longer be rich or poor), wages will be about the same for everyone who works the same number of hours. These wages will be more than enough to buy what people want, since many of the things that cost so much today will be free—such as education, including college and other kinds of special training, health care, and probably very quickly, transportation, communication, and entertainment. Other costs will be heavily subsidized—such as housing and basic items of food and clothing. Also, with production planned to serve social good rather than private profit, and with most things we use apportioned by need rather than by cost, money's role in society will gradually diminish, and with it the grip money now exercises on our psyches.

Throughout socialist society, in education but also at work and at play, efforts will be made to counter selfishness and the fear of what is different, and to promote the values of cooperation and mutual concern. With collective control over our activities, their products, and social relations, alienation—and its feeling of disconnectedness and powerlessness—would give way to feelings of empowerment, and a sense of belonging to the human community. In the process, freedom, equality, and democracy—all the noble ideals that capitalism (to its credit) first set out, and then (to its shame) undermined and distorted—will finally begin to describe our actual life together.

Where there is little to share, socialism will have difficulty working, but where material abundance already exists and is simply badly distributed, socialism can flourish. Socialism cannot work without industrialization, but where it has occurred, it can. Socialism can't work if complex organizations for producing and distributing goods have not already been created, but where they have, it can. Socialism cannot work in a society divided into different classes with distinct and competing interests, but in a society divided into different classes with distinct earners and have the same basic interests, it can. Socialism cannot work without democracy, but where it exists and the people themselves have chosen to cooperate, it can. Under these conditions, not only can socialism work, but nothing else can work as well. All the experiences of nations, such as China and the Soviet Union, where these conditions never existed, simply have no relevance to what we could do here and now. That the media emphasize these negative experiences every time they discuss socialism should only serve to remind us who owns the media and the interest they have in misleading us about the real possibilities that make up our future.

III. George Bernard Shaw defined "barbarian" as "someone who takes the morality of his own country as human nature." Yet there is probably nothing about which people feel more certain but know less about than human nature. Thus, socialism often gets criticized because people are said to be too selfish, too competitive, too uncaring, and too full of fears and hatreds to live in a society that requires so much cooperation. Many people believe, therefore, that socialism, while a nice idea, could not work. Nor do these critics lack evidence for their conclusion, since we all know a lot of Americans—possibly even ourselves—who posses those negative qualities.

But even if we were to view (falsely) all Americans in this way, that would still be only a fraction of the earth's population. If we look at all societies "primitive" as well as advanced, past as well as present, what we find is an enormous range in what people do, believe, want, fear, and hope for. It becomes impossible to single out any particular traits—whether good or bad—as representing basic human nature. All we can conclude is that humans display a great variety of traits, and that our species has been extraordinarily flexible in adapting itself to very different conditions.

Like Shaw's barbarian, those who consider socialism impossible because of the prevailing morality in their country have simply mistaken what most people have been made into by capitalism for basic human nature. Socialists, on the other hand, believe that in a society where people are permitted, encouraged, and even rewarded for showing mutual concern and cooperative behavior, they will gradually develop these qualities: they will become a part of their human nature. This does not mean that people are naturally good or loving, or cooperative. While some socialists hold this view, it is more associated with anarchism. In contrast, the Marxist position is that people by nature are neither good nor bad but they have the potential for both, as well as for everything in between. The mixture of character traits people develop are those made possible, functional, desirable, and sometimes even necessary by their particular society and by their class in that society. This view best explains what we have seen in the past as well as what we see in the present. Why wouldn't it also explain what is likely to occur to people, under the uniquely egalitarian and democratic conditions that will be set up in the future?

IV. Why socialism? We can boil all the reason down to the following: first and foremost, if you are a part of the working class, whether blue, white, or pink-collared, it is in your interest. Beyond this, socialism provides the only sure alternative to the material misery and other injustices of capitalism, and to the profit-driven destruction of the environment that will soon render our planet unlivable. Promoting cooperation and mutual concern is also morally superior on both religious and secular criteria to promoting competition and mutual indifference. Organizing production and distribution to serve social needs based on democratically devised plans also provides a more rational approach to life than succumbing to the vagaries of an uncontrolled market. Socialism also works more efficiently, since unlike capitalism (especially in times of crisis), it would fully use the available means of production—workers, machines, factories, and raw materials. With its concern for human values and beauty, socialism would curb the ugliness and shoddiness of capitalist production. With its concern for truth, socialism would also make unnecessary the hype, false advertising, and outright lying that defiles so much of our public life. It would also liberate knowledge to serve all humanity rather than the powerful few.

While socialism is generally argued for in the language of equality, it is every bit as much about freedom. Its equality lies in doing away with the various oppressions—of workers, women, people of color, and others—as well as with the special privileges that disfigure capitalism. Its freedom lies in making it possible for the first time in history for each person to develop his or her full potential as a human being. It is the final attainment of this goal that Marx calls "communism."

V. So, "Is it time," as William Buckley asked a few years ago, "to bury Karl Marx?" Well, it depends on the position one takes on Cacus. Cacus was a Roman mythological figure who stole oxen by dragging them backwards into his cave so that their footprints made it appear that they had gone out from there. After quoting Martin Luther's account of this story, Marx exclaims "An excellent picture, it fits the capitalist in general, who pretends that what he has taken from others and brought back to his den emanates from him, and by causing it to go backwards, he gives it the semblance of having come from his den."

Capitalists present themselves as the producers of wealth, as the providers of jobs, and as donors and public benefactors. When we examine their activities it appears as if nothing and no one gets going without their okay. These are the "footprints" in the sand, and they are there for all to see. From these appearances, it's easy to conclude that anything capitalists retain for themselves as profits is their just and well-earned reward.

But, as with Cacus, this tells only a partial story. To find out what really happened to the oxen, we would have to find out about the night before (to do a little history) and poke our heads into the cave (to examine the larger context). In the end, the full truth is exactly the opposite of the apparent truth. In the case of capitalists, only by investigating how most businessmen have extracted their wealth from the surplus labor of previous generations of workers (history) and by investigating how the laws and customs of our society are biased in their favor (the larger context), can we see that it is not capitalists who serve society (and thus, meriting a reward) but rather the rest of society who serve them. The businessman's power to make important decisions cannot be denied—the "footprints" are there. But when we place his role in its social and historic context, its meaning gets completely turned around.

In their different ways, all of Marx's theories perform this common work. Thus, as long as capitalism hides its real relations behind its appearances, its underlying processes behind its surface events, class struggle behind class collaboration, and the potential for an egalitarian democratic order behind the present inequality—so long will Marxism be needed to uncover the truth. And the capitalists and those Marx called their "ideological handmaidens," who insist, "It's time to bury Karl Marx"? Well Cacus, too, had an interest in keeping people from finding out what went on in his cave.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
Socialists, capitalists, conservatives, liberals, Republicans, democrats, social democrats, libertarians. It's all up to the person not the beliefs. You can Be a Stalin pretty easyly and call yourself a Communists, or a conservative, but thats just what you call yourself.

I think there have been many socialists who have cared for the people... like Tommy Douglas... Though he is a socialist in the tradition of Christian socialism, or British Guilde socialism, or Social democracy. Tommy Douglas is the one great figure of the left in Canada. But I also think people like Perre Trudeau did a lot of good (and some bad). It's just really depends on the person.