Quebec's websites more sensitive to languages?

[Machjo]

I'd been looking at various government websites, and get the impression that local and provincial government websites are more sensitive to languages in Quebec than in other provinces.

The provincial website is in three languages (French, English and Spanish), the local government website for the city of Quebec is in French, English, Spanish and Protuguese if I remember correctly; and the website for the city of Montreal is in French and English.

In English Canada, I found it's quite different. The Federal website is only in French and English, as are thoseof Ontario Ottawa likewise. That for the city of Vancouver has neither Chinese nor French (English only). Toronto's was unilingual also, as was that of the province of BC.

I'm not saying either way is good or bad; just an interesting observation.

 

[Numure]

RE: Quebec's websites mor

People might think we are unilingual racist bastards because of Bill 101. But we arnt. Multilingualism is promoted in the province.

 

[Vinnie Cappuccino]

There was no translate to english button on the Bloc's website!

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: Quebec's websites more sensitive to languages?

There was no translate to english button on the Bloc's website!

So that might say something about the Bloc's attitude, but still doesn't change the fact that Quebec governments are more sensitive.

 

[Huck]

Bill 101 is extremely misinterpretted in english canada. The bill is only there to protect quebec from a domination of an already dominant language: english (which slowly but surely eats up french in quebec due to its prevalence in north america). In no way does it want to restrict people from talking many languages, quite the contrary; it simply want s to prevent english (a dominant language in north america) to prevail over french. But, all other languages are more than welcome, even english as long sa it remains respectful of french.

This being said, Quebecers are much more conscious of the importance of respecting other people's cultures and lanugages.
English canadians and americans (not all, but some) sometimes feel english is the only language in the world and dont care trying to learn other languages; they seem to think: "whatever, the world will just adapt to me".

 

[Mogz]

A few things:

In English Canada, I found it's quite different. The Federal website is only in French and English, as are thoseof Ontario Ottawa likewise.

It all depends on languages spoken by the majority in that province/city. If you go to Vancouver, all the ATMs feature 4 languages; English, French, Chinese, and Japanese. In my city of Edmonton you barely see any French, that's because there are barely any french speaking individuals in this Province. Why cater to a linguistic group that isn't even present?

People might think we are unilingual racist bastards because of Bill 101. But we arnt. Multilingualism is promoted in the province.

That is the biggest load of crap i've heard heard/seen. I spent much of 2005 in Quebec, in Montreal in fact and let me tell you, multilingualism is NOT promoted. First off you have the language police, people who go around and fine business owners if their signs don't display French larger than English. Furthermore I walked in to a restaurant in St. Jean-sur-Richelieu with my friends. I asked the waitress a question about the menu and get this folks, here's what she said:

"I will not speak English, you must speak French in my Province"

So let me get this straight? You tell me in English that you won't speak English and I - who doesn't speak much French - must speak French? Jerk. Believe me, i've got a French-Canadian Grandmother and Mother, I know all about Quebec's concept of multilingualism. They both left Sherbrooke and moved to B.C. and Alberta for a reason.

English canadians and americans (not all, but some) sometimes feel english is the only language in the world and dont care trying to learn other languages; they seem to think: "whatever, the world will just adapt to me".

English is the international language, and has been for some time. That's not to say other languages don't exist, just that English IS the dominant language on Earth. You shouldn't have to make laws and bills to prop up a lanaguage. Times change, if the English language creeps in to Quebec, that's life. Instead of puttting restrictions on English speaking residents of Quebec and penalizing hard working Quebecers for having text on their signs too small or too large, perhaps just trying promoting multilingualism, or if you don't like it, move to France. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Francophones or Quebec (actually like the Province a lot), I just happen to think that Quebec acts like the spoiler child of Canada and simply bitches and moans about how it's so hard done by, when in reality Quebec is probably one of the best of Provinces.

 

[Huck]

Mogz, you dont get it. To understand the bill 101 and why the french have the language police, you must put yourself in our shoes. Lets take a hypothetical scenario (which could almost be true in vancouver).


You are all happy and live a very fine life in your native toungue in english. Then, you begin to realize that as immigration increasses and days go by, the downtown of your city is becomming chinese (i picked it arbitrarly, i love chines,e im actually learning it). Eventually, you realize you can't even get around in the city and read store signs, because all is written in chinese giubbersish.


Any normal person would eventually yell: "Hey! i respect your culture and you are welcome in the country, but please respect me too you know. I have a right to understand where im going". and eventually, a protective bill would probably pass to ensure that at least, chinese signs are also written in english, because most people dont speak chinese.



well, its the same for french. we just want to be able to understand what is written in the city. most quebecers dfont understand what: "no trespassing in the park" means, just like if you read: "toute personne depassant cette ligne sera tire a bout portant". you dont understand it, but its important to know what it means (hell, even google can't translate it properly)

I dont want to imply anything, but placing ourselves in other people's shoes is a great market and exercise of intelligence

hail to multilingual freedom

 

[Mogz]

Oh I do get it, in fact straight from the source; French Canadians. However why does French have to be larger on the sigh? Why can't English be huge and French be tiny? It's still there. In this Country we have something called "Freedom of Expression", a right which obviously doesn't apply in Quebec. If I want to move to Quebec and open a Dollar Store, why does French have to be dominant? I agree French should be on the sign, but making it a law to be bigger is childish, and typically French. If a French-Canadian comes to Alberta and opens a store and decides he/she wants a solely French sign, no one will stop him, because in this Province we adhere to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, unlike Quebec. In Vancouver, if you go to China town, all the signs are in Chinese, barely any English. Should we force people to put English on their signs? No, we should not, because that is not democracy. Am I saying that French shouldn't exist in Quebec? No, not at all, it should and Quebec has a rich heritage that should be preserved. However passing childish laws that are blatantly in contradiction to our Charter won't help preserve anything, in fact it simply creates animosity between Anglophones and Francophones. When I drive on the 401 up to Montreal, do I get perturbed that when I hit the Quebec border, all the signs are in French? No, it's Quebec. Do I get perturbed when a waitress who clearly speaks English forces me to speak French, yes, that is the epitome of what's wrong with aspects of Quebec.

 

[I think not]

I was under the impression Quebec never signed on the dotted line (Charter of Rights & Freedoms)?

 

[Mogz]

You know what, I was wrong, they never did. Thanks for pointing that out. They've got the Quebec Charter of Rights and Freedoms. How a Province gets it's own charter and can ignore federal law is really beyond me. Atypical of what's wrong with the the Province and why I personally think we should just let Quebec leave. Form their own Country and see how well they do.

P.S. Can anyone answer for me how the Bloc Quebecois can claim to want to leave Canada yet still get paid by the federal Government? Kind of hypocritcal no? Screw you Canada; can I get paid now?

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: Quebec's websites more sensitive to languages?

"English is the international language, and has been for some time."

Not officially: the UN has six official languages; English, French, Spanish, Russian, Arabic and Chinese. And judging by the trend (the UN only had English and French as official languages to begin with), they will probably grow before they decrease.

" That's not to say other languages don't exist, just that English IS the dominant language on Earth."

And that's why other languages need protection. Just as French needs protection from English, indigenous languages in North America also need protection from not only English, but French and Spanish also. Here in China, the Tibetan, Uighur, Korean, Russian, Kazakh, Zhuang, Mongolian and other minority ethnic languages, while having some legal protection from Chinese, don't have enough, and so in the larger cities, cultural assimilation to Chinese is occurring. But hey, according to you, they're just cultures! If a Tibetan needs to invest more time learning Chinese than Tibetan to get a good job, then that's his problem, right?


"You shouldn't have to make laws and bills to prop up a lanaguage. Times change, if the English language creeps in to Quebec, that's life. Instead of puttting restrictions on English speaking residents of Quebec and penalizing hard working Quebecers for having text on their signs too small or too large, perhaps just trying promoting multilingualism, or if you don't like it, move to France."

Hey, my guess above was right! Whadda ya know. And now you confirm it. Now as for going back to France, why don't you go back to England?

"Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Francophones or Quebec (actually like the Province a lot), I just happen to think that Quebec acts like the spoiler child of Canada and simply bitches and moans about how it's so hard done by, when in reality Quebec is probably one of the best of Provinces."

Then let's get rid of Bill 101, let everyone send their kids to school in English as they believe they must to succeed, and let French dies. Then we could let the indigenous languages fall right behind. And heck, remove the few laws China has to protect the Chinese minority languages, and just let them all assimilate to Chinese too. Beautiful homogenous world, that will be, hugh.

 

[Huck]

I have to completely agree with Machjo.


Mogz, you just cant understwand unless you live it yourself. For the vancouver example, when the chinese signs in the city come to a point when there is practically no more english, dont you agree with me that the english will dislike it and want to at least have english on panels too? can't you gree on that?

Also, you must understand one thing: you say that if english is crawling into quebec, jsut become english. well, thats easy to say, but what about the millions that dont speak english at all? have you tried to learn another language at age 40? have you tried to learn french? or chinese? common, its WAY easier said than done.

most quebcers would love to know english (i hear it all the time), but its not easy. So, now that many are 'stuck' in french, they want to understand whats happening. now, before you answer me kicking and screaming, just try to understand that.


For the lady that asked you to speak in french, she does not reflect quebec you know. Like everywhere in the world, some people are nice, and some are not. this applies the canada, usa, france, etc. Sorry you met a bad apple, but its just that. Most people i know greet the english like brothers.


But, you know, Quebecers (both english and french) hve a lead on you, albertans (and most english that dont border other languages) on one aspect: In Quebec, we are used to live together, the english and the french. Montreal, is just about half french, half english. We live together, have fun together, etc. half of my good friends are english are we live like brothers. We know each other well. There are no 'gangs' and wars of the english agains't the french. Everyone goes along just fine. PLus, its not uncommon for us to receive english people (mostly english canadians and americans) which are treated like grand guests and are taken out to the wild nights of montreal. Everyone loves it, everyone goes along just fine (most people dont even notice the language difference)

On the other hand, many english canadians (from the west mostly) dont know quebecers and have prejuged ideas, which are often based on blind hatered and things they heard about. "wow, my friend told me the french had green skin and ate english for supper!!"

Also, i have to say that some english (not all) dont consider french and never even try to speak a little when in Quebec. They go to places and talk english without considering that the place speaks a different language, as if everyone spoke english (for some french canadians, this sounds arrogant and is insulting). If you jsut try to say a few words, people will love you for it and speak all the english you want. This attitude is common in europe. I lived in spain and france for a few years, and when over there, i always spoke the local lanuage, even if it was hard for me (spanish for example). Never did I made them adapt to me, it was I that was in their home. even if i didn't know much (like german and italian) i spoke a little, then reverted to the common denominator language (usually french or english). Every one would laugh and all would go fine after; it denotes an interrest and respect for their culture; and people like that, being ignored in who they are.

If you knew quebecers in general, you would know they have nothing against english; all they want is that in Quebec, french be represented too. thats it.


is it so hard for you to place yourself in other people's shoes?



NB: Hell, maybe we should prevent other religions like the arabs and budhists to teach their children and protect their cultures and religions beliefs, because they dont use a church like you do. Isn't cristianism the region of the world mogz?? (sorry, i dont mean to insult you, im just begin sarcastic/funny for the purpose of the subject. i apologize)

 

[Huck]

you know mogz, just a little more:


i can assure you that the english do the same about 'different language invasions'.

Many times i have been brought back to order on different internet forums because i was speaking in french with frirends. This caused the english to not be able to understand the discussions, and almost every time they brought us back in order to switch back to english, so that they could understand too. No one complains when this happens, we even excuse ourselves, because we understand how rude it is to exclude others and deny them comprehension.

For the well being of all on these forums, an english only law is used to ensure a certain respect of others. Quebec does the same, for the french. Is it so hard to understand other people's point of view?

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: Quebec's websites more sensitive to languages?

Oh I do get it, in fact straight from the source; French Canadians. However why does French have to be larger on the sigh? Why can't English be huge and French be tiny? It's still there. In this Country we have something called "Freedom of Expression", a right which obviously doesn't apply in Quebec. If I want to move to Quebec and open a Dollar Store, why does French have to be dominant? I agree French should be on the sign, but making it a law to be bigger is childish, and typically French. If a French-Canadian comes to Alberta and opens a store and decides he/she wants a solely French sign, no one will stop him, because in this Province we adhere to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, unlike Quebec. In Vancouver, if you go to China town, all the signs are in Chinese, barely any English. Should we force people to put English on their signs? No, we should not, because that is not democracy. Am I saying that French shouldn't exist in Quebec? No, not at all, it should and Quebec has a rich heritage that should be preserved. However passing childish laws that are blatantly in contradiction to our Charter won't help preserve anything, in fact it simply creates animosity between Anglophones and Francophones. When I drive on the 401 up to Montreal, do I get perturbed that when I hit the Quebec border, all the signs are in French? No, it's Quebec. Do I get perturbed when a waitress who clearly <SNIP: SPAM> English forces me to speak French, yes, that is the epitome of what's wrong with aspects of Quebec.

Not to be pissy, but we didnt sign the Canadian charter.... It was in the new constitution, that we didnt sign. We have our own charter in Québec.

 

[Machjo]

"Also, i have to say that some english (not all) dont consider french and never even try to speak a little when in Quebec. They go to places and talk english without considering that the place a different language, as if everyone spoke english (for some french canadians, this sounds arrogant and is insulting). "Same experience here.

Chinese will travel all over China, to Xinjiang, Tibet, Yanbian, Inner Mongolia, with the attitude, heck, this is China, so I'll just use Chinese. No effort whatsoever to learn the local language.

In some ways it's different from Quebec, though. For instance, some Uighurs who can speak English will just decide, fine, you don;t want to learn Uighur, we don't want to speak Chinese (many can speak it though, but they just have the same attitude toward Chinese as the Quebecois do toward English), so they use English, which in China, can be viewed as an ethnically or politically neutral language among ethnic minorities. Although some Han (the majority ethnic group in China) are now starting to have the same attitude as the Quebecois toward English, though this attitude is much more recent and among a much smaller percentage, albeit growing, of the populaion than is the case in Quebec.

 

[Huck]

Machjo, i think its very interresting to get a point of view from china. I guess this sentiment is not new in the world and certainly not exclusive to canada, and it must be a human trait to ignore minorities at our eyes.

To play devil's advocate, i hate to admit that i will rarely bother to speak the native tongue when i go on a native reserve in quebec. If i live with them, i will try to speak a little, but if i just stop at the grocery store, ill just resort to french and perhaps english. (in their eyes, this can probably seem the same as i said about the french when english dont bother trying). so, I can't entirely blame the english for not trying. (please note that as much as possible though, i will try to speak the most that i can about the local language, as i said about europe)


I think that the key is we must live and let live. and remeber to respect the differences of others, especially when we are in their home. And as much as possible, try to understand why other nation and cultures adopt the positions they do. (yes, some of you may see that the extend of this concept is far greater than just language differences, it applies to wars, terrorism, etc. We must try our best to understand the other, and avoid biased opinions and early judgement when taking sides.). Most usually, others have a valid reason (in their eyes) to do what they do. we must try to understand it, and as much as is possible morally, respect it.

 

[Numure]

RE: Quebec's websites mor

At least we, show alot more respect for Canadian culture by speaking english, though not perfectly, quite well.

In a very large proportion, alot more Québécois speak english, or any other language then Canadians. We fund, and support the english community here to the SAME level as french. English Universities, CÉGEPS, Primary and Secondary school systems are funded at the exact same level as their french counter parts.

Needless to say, the french communities in the rest of Canada don't have that, at all. Even in Ontario, that has a pretty large french community, theirs almost no public funding for french institutions.

Bill 101 might be harsh, I agree. But it is needed. On the other hand, we take care of our minority (Anglophones number at 10% of the population btw), much better then the rest of Canada takes care of theirs.

 

[Machjo]

I am curious though; should Canaidans (both in and outside Quebec) be expected to learn a local indigenous language in your eyes, even before learning the other national language?

I'm not asking this from an economic standpoint, but rather from a moral one. What are your ideas on that one?

 

[Huck]

Re: RE: Quebec's websites more sensitive to languages?

I am curious though; should Canaidans (both in and outside Quebec) be expected to learn a local indigenous language in your eyes, even before learning the other national language?

I'm not asking this from an economic standpoint, but rather from a moral one. What are your ideas on that one?

I'd say this is an excellent question. No one can be forced to learn something unless they want to, so i guess a native language would have to appeal to a certain population for them to wish to learn it. I am not aware of any native canadian language that will provide some kind of international advantage which would justify the effort.


Now, i believe that it might be good to teach canadians 'notions' of native languages like the greetings and forms of politeness. This could be easy to learn and would demonstrate the french and english canadians care for who they are, even if not learning the whole language.

this being said, I would personally love to learn native languages if my brain would permit it. Sadly, learning chinese is currently requesting all me brain power

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: Quebec's websites more sensitive to languages?

Sadly, learning chinese is currently requesting all me brain power

你在学中文吗?