Why would anybody support the Liberals?

[Triple_R]

It actually amazes me that Liberal support hasn't eroded even more than it has.

I understand that political ideology is important, and can certainly play a key role in how we vote. I understand that a left-leaning Canadian would want little to nothing to do with a Conservative government.

However, there are some things that transcend political ideology. There are some things that are more important in the realm of politics than getting the public policies that you want. One such thing is rewarding honesty in government, and punishing corruption/dishonesty in government.

A certain degree of corruption/dishonesty is to be expected in government, given the very nature of politics in a democratic society. For example, I can genuinely understand why the Liberals got elected last time (before the Gomery Inquiry was completed).
However, there comes a point when the level of corruption/dishonesty is so high that you must throw the current government out. You have to show that you're not willing to stand for THIS much corruption/lying in government. Otherwise, you're just going to continue to get such levels of corruption/lying in government (which naturally leads to wasteful spending - which is bad regardless of what your political ideology is, or is not).

How can anybody cast a vote for the Liberals given the obvious levels of corruption/dishonesty within that pary? Why would you want to reward such corruption/dishonesty by voting Liberal?
This was the assessment of a CTV news anchor...

"The liberals spent the first half of the campaign fending off the opposition parties' attacks. They've spent the last two weeks fending off the RCMP."

This is shameful. Downright shameful. I'm actually ashamed, as a Canadian, to have such a transparently corrupt/dishonest/wasteful government in power. I'd take the Conservatives OR the NDP over the current Liberals any day... because this transcends political ideology. We simply have to stop rewarding this brazenly arrogant, corrupt, and dishonest party with electoral success.

Back in 1993, the Tories needed to be taught a lesson. I'm glad that they were. Now, however, the Liberals need to be taught a lesson. I hope that Canadians will rise to the occassion now as they did back in 1993.

 

[Jersay]

We will have to wait and see.

I am voting NDP if that would help.

 

[Triple_R]

Jersay - That's cool with me.

I respect the NDP. They have some good ideas (particularly on Heath Care), and are a respectable party.

I might vote for them, in fact, though I haven't made up my mind yet. My family is largely NDP supporters.

 

[Jersay]

Well hopefully they do a bit better in the election so they can keep both major parties on track.

Their support seems to be around 17-18%.

 

[#juan]

I have traditionally supported the Liberals but this time I don't know. I voted for Mulroney for his first term but that was a mistake I'll try not to repeat. Harper has flip/flopped so many times on so many issues it is hard to know where he stands. I get the feeling Harper will say anything to get elected, which makes him just like every other politician in the country. Martin has at least given us a balanced budget and a strong economy in spite of the free trade agreement. Harper looks to take us back to crippling deficits just like Mulroney and we sure as hell don't need that. There is a saying about the devil you know as opposed to the devil you don't know. Hell, I might just vote NDP.

 

[FiveParadox]

My Position

Despite the fact that I am probably going to be insulted for having said so, I am going to be voting for a candidate of the Liberal Party of Canada. Before I am "booed" out of the Forum, please permit me to explain my reasoning behind my decision to do so:

(a) I am gay, and the concept of same-sex marriage is an important right to me. Under a Conservative Government, that right would be placed in jeopardy; by voting for any party who currently is not represented in the House of Commons, or by voting for the Conservative Party, I would be knowingly placing that right at risk.

(b) I am opposed to the abolishment of the Senate of Canada; I see a useful purpose in the institution, in the job that it does for us, and for the House of Commons, and for the check that it places (however much such a check could use improvement) on the House; therefore, I cannot in good conscience support the New Democratic Party, as such a Member would advocate for the destruction of what I would consider a valuable institution, and a valuable part of Canadian tradition and heritage.

(c) I support the history and the record of the Liberal Party of Canada; the Canada Pension Plan, Canada Student Loans, the basis of the Child Tax Credit, our universal healthcare system, the repatriation of the Constitution and, perhaps most importantly, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

(d) I supportthe stance that the Rt. Hon. Jean Chrétien and the Liberal caucus had taken at the outbreak of the war in Iraq; I cannot say the same for the Conservative Party. On March 20, 2003, the Hon. Stephen Harper voted against a motion "that this House call upon the government not to participate in the military intervention initiated by the United States in Iraq."

:!: Edit Corrected a typo.

 

[Triple_R]

Juan - My own view is that Harper is making some campaign promises that aren't entirely truthful... or that he has some social spending cuts planned that he's not revealing. This degree of dishonesty is to be expected. I dare say that almost every politician lies during a campaign. It's like when Chretien essentially said he would eliminate the GST. His failure to do so never really bugged me that much.

There's lying-to-get-elected, and then there's providing favours to your friends (which aren't necessary to get elected). One is a common abuse to GAIN power... the other is a more painful abuse OF power. I get a real strong sense of Liberals providing favours to their friends... and doing so for at least a decade now.

I get a sense that the Conservatives, or the NDP, wouldn't be doing this 'doing favours for our friends' sort of thing. It's out of synch with the conservative mindset of small government, while the NDP strikes me as too honest/too "I stand for all Canadians" for this sort of thing.

 

[Triple_R]

Re: My Position

Despite the fact that I am probably going to be insulted for having said so, I am going to be voting for a candidate of the Liberal Party of Canada. Before I am "booed" out of the Forum, please permit me to explain my reasoning behind my decision to do so:

(a) I am gay, and the concept of same-sex marriage is an important right to me. Under a Conservative Government, that right would be placed in jeopardy; by voting for any party who currently is not represented in the House of Commons, or by voting for the Conservative Party, I would be knowingly placing that right at risk.

(b) I am opposed to the abolishment of the Senate of Canada; I see a useful purpose in the institution, in the job that it does for us, and for the House of Commons, and for the check that it places (however much such a check could use improvement) on the House; therefore, I cannot in good conscience support the New Democratic Party, as such a Member would advocate for the destruction of what I would consider a valuable institution, and a valuable part of Canadian tradition and heritage.

(c) I support the history and the record of the Liberal Party of Canada; the Canada Pension Plan, Canada Student Loans, the basis of the Child Tax Credit, our universal healthcare system, the repatriation of the Constitution and, perhaps most importantly, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

(d) I supportthe stance that the Rt. Hon. Jean Chrétien and the Liberal caucus had taken at the outbreak of the war in Iraq; I cannot say the same for the Conservative Party. On March 20, 2003, the Hon. Stephen Harper voted against a motion "that this House call upon the government not to participate in the military intervention initiated by the United States in Iraq."

:!: Edit Corrected a typo.

I am not going to boo you. However, I like a challenge, and persuading you to vote for somebody other than Liberal might be a good challenge.
To answer each of your points...

a) Last I checked, Stephen Harper supported gay civil unions. He simply perfers the traditional definition of the term 'marriage' over it's recent legal re-definition. I don't see any threat to a right here. I see a potential terminology change should Harper get elected, but that's about it. If you're in a loving relationship with a man/woman that you adore, and you consider yourselves to be married, it shouldn't matter to you what the government CALLS that relationship, as long as it as all the rights/responsibilities of marriage. Beyond that, Harper would need an overwhelming electoral victory even to gain a mere terminology change.

b) In its current form, the Senate is terribly open to calls to demolish it. Quite frankly, it's currently almost as legislatively useless as the Governor General is. If you like the concept of a meaningful Senate (as I myself do), then you would want to see it changed to an elected Senate, where it's much more likely to have genuine legislative impact. The Liberals are the least likely party to bring this about. Beyond that, the NDP aren't going to form the government, so they're not going to get a chance to abolish the Senate anyway. If the Conservatives form the government, we may get an elected senate which in turn would make the NDP less likely to call for its abolishment. I find it incredibly odd that you would find it against your conscience to vote NDP due to the principle behind one policy position, yet would not find it against your conscience to vote for an unbelieveably corrupt Liberal party.

c) My knowledge of the history/reality of the Canadian Pension Plan is admittably slight. However, Health Care was the brainchild of the NDP - in particular, the man voted the greatest Canadian ever: Tommy Douglass. The Liberals simply took the NDP's wonderful idea, and ran with it. Student Grants would be far better than Student Loans. In fact, I dislike the idea of Student Loans - it gives Univesities all the excuse they need to over-charge. When I compare what my parents had to pay to go to post-secondary to what I had to pay to go to post-secondary, the difference is incredible. The difference is due, in no small part, to the culture of Student Loans. I know of numerous people who are absolutely financially crippled by the debt that comes from Student Loans. You champion this creation?
The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms was the brainchild of Pierre Trudeau, who often went against his own party... and in fact was on the same side as the old Reformer Preston Manning was back during the Meech Lake issue.

The Liberals simply don't deserve to get Health Care, and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, as feathers in their cap. Health Care came from a NDP political leader. The Charter was almost solely due to the thinking, and machinations, of one Prime Minister.

d) The Iraq issue simply highlights the duplicity of the Liberal party. While we officially weren't involved in the Iraqi war, we did have several Canadian soldiers actually fighting in Iraq. That's incredibly dumb. We're ticking off the Americans, and doing so while not sparing the lives of our men and women. We got the worst of both worlds... :?

With all due respect, I think that you're too concerned with lip service/image, and not enough with concrete reality. Given your stances outlined here, I think that the NDP deserves your vote much more than the Liberals do. It's the NDP that deserves most of the credit for universal health care, and it's the NDP that propped up Trudeau (the eventual champion of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms) on numerous occassions.

 

[Finder]

I will be voting NDP as I am very close to there politics. I'm a left leaning Canadian.

Now I do not dislike Liberal policy. The problem with the liberal party is they never follow threw with alot of there promises. they have cut immporant social programs, and they have lied about many issues I care about like electoral reform and child care programs and so on. The corruption and arrogance of the Liberal party makes it immporrible for me to vote for them

I am against the right ring policies of the Conservative party which I do not support, but some of there "populist" idea's sound good. I think they could cause a lot of damage to Canada if they get a magority. I'd vote for them if I had to.

The Green party, they have some policies I like some I dislike. They support democratic reform but often split the other party (NDP) who support it fully as well killing the chances of the NDP to get more power and force a plateform which would benifit the greens. I'd vote Conservative before green on this issue by itself. I would maybe vote green before liberal.

 

[FiveParadox]

Liberal Party Supporter

I must say, while I recognize the validity of the arguments presented, at this point I would still prefer to vote for the Liberal Party of Canada. Notwithstanding the issues with accountability (with the more recent "Finance leak" being nothing more than propaganda, in my opinion; but that's a topic for another thread), I am closest to their policies and, therefore, they are going to have my vote.

Then again, anything can happen in an election, right?

Best of luck to our preferred parties.

 

[Colpy]

It actually amazes me that Liberal support hasn't eroded even more than it has.

I understand that political ideology is important, and can certainly play a key role in how we vote. I understand that a left-leaning Canadian would want little to nothing to do with a Conservative government.

However, there are some things that transcend political ideology. There are some things that are more important in the realm of politics than getting the public policies that you want. One such thing is rewarding honesty in government, and punishing corruption/dishonesty in government.

A certain degree of corruption/dishonesty is to be expected in government, given the very nature of politics in a democratic society. For example, I can genuinely understand why the Liberals got elected last time (before the Gomery Inquiry was completed).
However, there comes a point when the level of corruption/dishonesty is so high that you must throw the current government out. You have to show that you're not willing to stand for THIS much corruption/lying in government. Otherwise, you're just going to continue to get such levels of corruption/lying in government (which naturally leads to wasteful spending - which is bad regardless of what your political ideology is, or is not).

How can anybody cast a vote for the Liberals given the obvious levels of corruption/dishonesty within that pary? Why would you want to reward such corruption/dishonesty by voting Liberal?
This was the assessment of a CTV news anchor...

"The liberals spent the first half of the campaign fending off the opposition parties' attacks. They've spent the last two weeks fending off the RCMP."

This is shameful. Downright shameful. I'm actually ashamed, as a Canadian, to have such a transparently corrupt/dishonest/wasteful government in power. I'd take the Conservatives OR the NDP over the current Liberals any day... because this transcends political ideology. We simply have to stop rewarding this brazenly arrogant, corrupt, and dishonest party with electoral success.

Back in 1993, the Tories needed to be taught a lesson. I'm glad that they were. Now, however, the Liberals need to be taught a lesson. I hope that Canadians will rise to the occassion now as they did back in 1993.

ABSOLUTELY DEAD ON!

Very well said.

 

[Cosmo]

RE: Why would anybody sup

I was pleasantly surprised reading this thread! I thought it would be nothing more than another *yawn* party bashing event. Good thoughts here.

I'm voting NDP, without a doubt. It's good to see others are doing so as well!

 

[Colpy]

I have traditionally supported the Liberals but this time I don't know. I voted for Mulroney for his first term but that was a mistake I'll try not to repeat. Harper has flip/flopped so many times on so many issues it is hard to know where he stands. I get the feeling Harper will say anything to get elected, which makes him just like every other politician in the country. Martin has at least given us a balanced budget and a strong economy in spite of the free trade agreement. Harper looks to take us back to crippling deficits just like Mulroney and we sure as hell don't need that. There is a saying about the devil you know as opposed to the devil you don't know. Hell, I might just vote NDP.

I did exactly the same thing with Mulrooney, I voted for the SOB the first time out, and got screwed.

Then I drifted to the Reform Party.

I believe the Conservative deficit thing is a scare tactic. The CPC retains enough of the old reform principles that this would be completely unacceptable. The Feds are currently awash in cash, but the Liberals have been shoveling it out the back of the truck pretty quickly.

Honestly, I expect Harper to dump a lot of the deals Martin made leading up to the election. I also expect him to concentrate on his five priorities, and I think deficit spending just ain't gonna happen. It is no longer acceptable to the Canadian people.

I think you can feel safe on that point, and vote Conservative. Or NDP.

Anything but Liberal.

 

[nomore]

I have traditionally supported the Liberals but this time I don't know. I voted for Mulroney for his first term but that was a mistake I'll try not to repeat. Harper has flip/flopped so many times on so many issues it is hard to know where he stands. I get the feeling Harper will say anything to get elected, which makes him just like every other politician in the country. Martin has at least given us a balanced budget and a strong economy in spite of the free trade agreement. Harper looks to take us back to crippling deficits just like Mulroney and we sure as hell don't need that. There is a saying about the devil you know as opposed to the devil you don't know. Hell, I might just vote NDP.

Just have a couple of problems with this...
Please give examples of what issues Harper has flip/flopped on, because personally, I have not seen any. In fact, I think he has been very careful in making only promises that he can keep. Hence why he hasn't just said "abolish the GST" he is carefully laying out a plan that will be possible should they get elected.

Martin giving a balanced budget is almost to the point of laughable, because anybody could have done what Martin did. He took large amounts of funding away from the provinces, and as a result took significant funding away from many social programs (healthcare anyone). It is also universally recognised, especially by all the oposisiton parties, that it was due to severe financial mismanagement. Also much of it due to over taxation, rather than proper fiscal management, and removing the huge amounts of burocracy in the federal government.

Next is Mulroney, you are incorrect. The deficit was not caused by the Mulroney government, it was caused by the Liberal Trudeau government, along with one of the biggest debt increases in Canadian history. The Mulroney government was left with this when they took office. They were the ones that were left with the daunting task of trying to fix it, as conservative governments usually are.

As for your "devil you know" statement, we have no proof Harper is a "devil", in fact quite the contrary, Harper has had quite a distiguished career up to this point., where as we know and have proof that Martin and the liberals are "devils", so unfortunatly your statement is completely without merit, and is more liberal propoganda.

Triple_R, your posts have been very well put.

 

[FiveParadox]

Harper's past speeches have, with all due respect, proven him to be far more conservative than he now asserts himself to be; I am referring to "hardcore" conservatism, just to be clear; the kind that even some Conservatives denounce.

As for never having flip-flopped on an issue, that is incorrect. The Iraq war was a huge issue. He says now that he never supported participating in the war in Iraq; however, he made a speech to the contrary, and voted against the Government on a motion to stay out of the war.

:!: Edit My post had originally referred to Harper as "intolerant." On reading it over, it seemed a bit too strong; it has been re-worded. Sorry if I offended any Conservative supporters with that; it's late, lol.

 

[Colpy]

Re: My Position

Despite the fact that I am probably going to be insulted for having said so, I am going to be voting for a candidate of the Liberal Party of Canada. Before I am "booed" out of the Forum, please permit me to explain my reasoning behind my decision to do so:

(a) I am gay, and the concept of same-sex marriage is an important right to me. Under a Conservative Government, that right would be placed in jeopardy; by voting for any party who currently is not represented in the House of Commons, or by voting for the Conservative Party, I would be knowingly placing that right at risk.

(b) I am opposed to the abolishment of the Senate of Canada; I see a useful purpose in the institution, in the job that it does for us, and for the House of Commons, and for the check that it places (however much such a check could use improvement) on the House; therefore, I cannot in good conscience support the New Democratic Party, as such a Member would advocate for the destruction of what I would consider a valuable institution, and a valuable part of Canadian tradition and heritage.

(c) I support the history and the record of the Liberal Party of Canada; the Canada Pension Plan, Canada Student Loans, the basis of the Child Tax Credit, our universal healthcare system, the repatriation of the Constitution and, perhaps most importantly, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

(d) I supportthe stance that the Rt. Hon. Jean Chrétien and the Liberal caucus had taken at the outbreak of the war in Iraq; I cannot say the same for the Conservative Party. On March 20, 2003, the Hon. Stephen Harper voted against a motion "that this House call upon the government not to participate in the military intervention initiated by the United States in Iraq."

:!: Edit Corrected a typo.

I'll try not to BOO, which is hard for me, as I can't stomach the Libs.

A I believe Harper would like to step away from the SSM issue as well. I don't think SSM would be overturned by a free vote. If it was, a new law would be submitted to the SCOC, and that law would define marriage in the traditional way, with civil unions with the exact same priviledges for same sex couples. At the most, you lose the term marriage, and that is doubtful.

B The Conservatives would not abolish the Senate, they would simply only appoint elected senators where the provinces saw fit to hold elections for them. This is exactly the way the US Senate became an elected body..........the states' legislatures ceased sending appointees, and started holding elections.

C Geez, the Liberals have ruled long enough they had to do something right! Seriosly, I don't think any of those things are threatened by the CPC more than they are by the Liberals themselves.

D Honestly, I can't argue this with you because I thought, and I still believe, we should be in Iraq with our natural allies.....not just the USA, but the UK and Australia.

 

[Citizen]

Re: My Position

Honestly, I can't argue this with you because I thought, and I still believe, we should be in Iraq with our natural allies.....not just the USA, but the UK and Australia.

The Iraq situation is arguably an illegal war, started by those cowboys in Washington. I disagree with you that Canada should have gone into Iraq and was quite pleased when Chretien resolved to follow the letter of international law and U.N. in that respect.

Regarding the U.K., I suggest to you that Britain owed the U.S. Remember the Falkland Islands war? Australia I've no idea about....

 

[Colpy]

Re: My Position

Honestly, I can't argue this with you because I thought, and I still believe, we should be in Iraq with our natural allies.....not just the USA, but the UK and Australia.

The Iraq situation is arguably an illegal war, started by those cowboys in Washington. I disagree with you that Canada should have gone into Iraq and was quite pleased when Chretien resolved to follow the letter of international law and U.N. in that respect.

Regarding the U.K., I suggest to you that Britain owed the U.S. Remember the Falkland Islands war? Australia I've no idea about....

Well, you and, it seems, everybody else in Canada

Not the first time I've been outnumbered.

I have to say, I think the entire concept of any war being "illegal" is a very bad joke.

 

[nomore]

Re: RE: Why would anybody support the Liberals?

As for never having flip-flopped on an issue, that is incorrect. The Iraq war was a huge issue. He says now that he never supported participating in the war in Iraq; however, he made a speech to the contrary, and voted against the Government on a motion to stay out of the war.
[/color]

He didn't deny saying he supported the war in Iraq, he said he now sees he was mistaken, as he was misled, along with many others, with false information.

People also forget that Martin (while finance minister) also supported sending troops to Iraq. However he now claims he never said that.

So the way I see it, at least Harper admitted his mistake, where as Martin has not.

 

[FiveParadox]

Mistakes

Oh, the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin has screwed up before, lol, I'm not going to cover for him on that; however, notwithstanding his faults, he is still my preference for Prime Minister, and his party remains my preference for the Government of Canada.