#1Jan 3rd, 2006
Either you are a citizen of Canada or you aren't. So many peole I know gain citizenship just to reap benefit without any sense of loyalty.
Any thoughts?
Down with dual citizenship!
Either you are a citizen of Canada or you aren't. So many peole I know gain citizenship just to reap benefit without any sense of loyalty.
Any thoughts?
Free Thinker
#2
RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006
I agree that some people shouldn't have been given Canadian citizenship to begin with. For example, the ones that arrive at Toronto Pearson with no luggage or money who are instructed to come back in 3 years to pick up their passport. But allowing only one citizenship is so middle-age. What benefits does one reap if they are not in Canada but hold Canadian citizenship? You get to vote for the next 5 years if you plan to return, but there's nothing much past that.
#3
Re: RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by Andem
You get to move around and travel under the flag of Canada which is respected worldwide. If you get into trouble, you have the Canadian government to try and help you. What benefits does one reap if they are not in Canada but hold Canadian citizenship? You get to vote for the next 5 years if you plan to return, but there's nothing much past that.
I have nothing against people moving around, but citizenship should be more than just convenience. Even if I moved away from Canada, I would stay Canadian. I would understand and respect the fact that I would not be entitiled to and have the same rights as citizens of my new home country. If I did one day, decide to take up citizenship of my new lands, I would expect Canada to renounce my Canadian citizenship.
I know folk who use a second passport (US or EU) just to avoid visa fees and line ups at airports; to me this is terrible.
#4
Re: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006
Now, I want to do humanitarian work either with the UN or UNICEF. How about if it takes me away from Canada for many years, more than the five year period. I am always going to be Canadian and I always want to be Canadian, except for that wee time when I was a young teenager. Shouldn't I have canadian citizenship?
Free Thinker
#5
Re: RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by DasFX
Quote: Originally Posted by AndemYou get to move around and travel under the flag of Canada which is respected worldwide. If you get into trouble, you have the Canadian government to try and help you.What benefits does one reap if they are not in Canada but hold Canadian citizenship? You get to vote for the next 5 years if you plan to return, but there's nothing much past that.
I have nothing against people moving around, but citizenship should be more than just convenience. Even if I moved away from Canada, I would stay Canadian. I would understand and respect the fact that I would not be entitiled to and have the same rights as citizens of my new home country. If I did one day, decide to take up citizenship of my new lands, I would expect Canada to renounce my Canadian citizenship.
I know folk who use a second passport (US or EU) just to avoid visa fees and line ups at airports; to me this is terrible.
I have an EU passport by birthright, and even if I did want to renounce it, it is a difficult task to give it up. I live in the EU so it would be quite annoying living there without an EU passport. I don't feel guilty about having both and having allegiance to both nationalities. This doesn't mean that I won't return to Canadian society one day, I'm just living on the other side of the globe right now.
A Canadian passport is becoming less and less valuable these days anyways. We give them out to the masses of non-Canadians. Why shouldn't a Canadian, who grew up in this country, be denied the right to Canadian citizenship as opposed to "refugees" who never really integrate into society?
#6
Re: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006Quote:
Show me evidence that refugees do not integrate into society. A Canadian passport is becoming less and less valuable these days anyways. We give them out to the masses of non-Canadians. Why shouldn't a Canadian, who grew up in this country, be denied the right to Canadian citizenship as opposed to "refugees" who never really integrate into society?
Some are on welfare, yes, but is it because they are not trying to work in Canada, or because the conditions are too difficult.
Immigrants, Refugees, and 'true' Canadians should all deserve Canadian citizenship if they want to first, abide by the rules of this country, make this country better and finally, want to have connections to this country.
Not use this country to hop into America.
#7
Re: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by Jersay
Of course you should, I am not suggesting otherwise. But if your travels you actively sought and become a citizen of another country, then you should not be allowed to retain your Canadian citizenship.Now, I want to do humanitarian work either with the UN or UNICEF. How about if it takes me away from Canada for many years, more than the five year period. I am always going to be Canadian and I always want to be Canadian, except for that wee time when I was a young teenager. Shouldn't I have canadian citizenship?
#8
Re: RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by DasFX
I really don't think it matters what "flag" I travel under when I go abroad. Most people just assume I'm American and I haven't noticed any different treatment when I correct them. [You get to move around and travel under the flag of Canada which is respected worldwide. If you get into trouble, you have the Canadian government to try and help you.
.
I really don't care if someone has dual citizenship. I think it's somewhat unreasonable to expect people to forget the country of their birth just because they live somewhere else. I don't even care if people use their citizenship to avoid problems with work permits or visas. Since most countries don't really recognize dual citizenship in any meaningful way, they aren't getting any special treatment. As far as the Canadian government is concerned, if you have Canadian citizenship you are a Canadian end of story. You don't get any benes for holding a US passport.
I also don't see how people with dual citizensip aren't being loyal.
#9
Re: RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by Andem
I am not advocating such a stance, however if you become a citizen of another country, then it should be automatic that you are not a citizen of this country. How can you wear two hats? Why shouldn't a Canadian, who grew up in this country, be denied the right to Canadian citizenship?
By your own words, you suggest that you wish to retain your EU passport mostly for practical purposes of living in Europe. How are you any different from those refugees you speak of who simply use Canadian citizenship for their own advantages.
Are you loyal to the EU or do you just want the passport cause then you can travel, live and work freely in Europe?
#10
Re: RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by Andem
Have you ever tried to get into the EU with a passport from an African country? A Canadian passport is still worth its weight in gold if you travel a lot. Granted there are more visa requirements than there were 20 years ago but that is true for all nationalities.A Canadian passport is becoming less and less valuable these days anyways. We give them out to the masses of non-Canadians. Why shouldn't a Canadian, who grew up in this country, be denied the right to Canadian citizenship as opposed to "refugees" who never really integrate into society?
About 10 years ago I went to the Immigration office to pick up the citizenship forms. I was only there a few minutes and then I left. I couldn't do it. I only have the one passport.
#11
Re: RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by tracy
My parents came here and become Canadian citizens, but they certainly haven't forgotten their home nation. The accepted the fact that to be an active participant in Canadian society, one would have to become a citizen and so they did. I think it's somewhat unreasonable to expect people to forget the country of their birth just because they live somewhere else.
It all depends on how one views citizenship, if you view it as a form of bureaucracy, then sure, why not have citizenship of every land. I see citizenship as part of who I am. I am a Canadian citizen. I would never consider travelling under another nation's passport, even if it meant less red tape, cost and scrutiny.
Is this the society we are trying to build, a society based on entitlement and the motto of use and abuse? Citizenship is based on loyalty and allegiance.
Look at the new Oath of citizenship,
"From this day forward, I pledge my loyalty and allegiance to Canada and Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada. I promise to respect our country's rights and freedoms, to defend our democratic values, to faithfully observe our laws and fulfil my duties and obligations as a Canadian citizen."
#12
Re: RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by DasFX
I don't see why you can't do that just because you are also an Eu citizen or something. There are a lot of dual citizens who probably contribute more to Canada than those who are only Canadian. I have friends who are dual citizens and I don't think I'm a better Canadian just because I'm not. Heck, they still live in Canada, I'm the one who left.[Is this the society we are trying to build, a society based on entitlement and the motto of use and abuse? Citizenship is based on loyalty and allegiance.
Look at the new Oath of citizenship,
"From this day forward, I pledge my loyalty and allegiance to Canada and Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada. I promise to respect our country's rights and freedoms, to defend our democratic values, to faithfully observe our laws and fulfil my duties and obligations as a Canadian citizen."
#13
Re: RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by tracy
Your opinion is your own, but I certainly don't want to stand shoulder to shoulder with a bunch of fence sitters who can flip at a moment's notice. What is so wrong with asking people to make a choice?Quote: Originally Posted by DasFXI don't see why you can't do that just because you are also an Eu citizen or something. There are a lot of dual citizens who probably contribute more to Canada than those who are only Canadian. I have friends who are dual citizens and I don't think I'm a better Canadian just because I'm not. Heck, they still live in Canada, I'm the one who left.[Is this the society we are trying to build, a society based on entitlement and the motto of use and abuse? Citizenship is based on loyalty and allegiance.
Look at the new Oath of citizenship,
"From this day forward, I pledge my loyalty and allegiance to Canada and Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada. I promise to respect our country's rights and freedoms, to defend our democratic values, to faithfully observe our laws and fulfil my duties and obligations as a Canadian citizen."
If one lives in the US, you can still be Canadian. This I am not denying, but why become a US citizen? Most Canucks do so for practical reasons, not because they want to drape themselves in Old Glory and recite the Pledge of Alligence every morning. To me this is wrong. That is just using American citizenship. If you want to be an American who can actively participant in American issues and government, then by all means become one, but don't expect to have it both ways by also being Canadian.
#14
Re: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006
.....Perhaps, then, I'm an opportunist. For me its about spreading culture, sharing skills, and experience. I am Canadian, I was born here and live here . But appreciate that my family roots are else where, and that I can be a part of it. I am grateful to be able to live, and travel, freely, where I choose. How can this be stupid????We in Canada are a mutli-cultural society. Founded and built by people who immigrated from around the world. Many of whom, kept dual status, or never even became citizens. What loyalty and dedication, these people had eh?
Andem, my father showed up here, in Toronto, with no luggage, ......... because he was wearing all his clothes ( & no $ because he spent it on a plane ticket). Everything else he owned, was in his pockets. The benefits he got were being able to live in this country, and continue his education. He got a job put himself thru school, got his masters in Science, and taught high school for 35 yrs. He maintains a dual citizenship, but has been living in Canada for 45 yrs. When asked, while traveling, where he is from, he will tell you CANADA.... .
#15
Re: RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006
[ Quote] We give them out to the masses of non-Canadians. [quote]
??????... ...other than the natives, we are all from somewhere else.
??????... ...other than the natives, we are all from somewhere else.
#16
RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006
people should be able to have as many citizenships as they desire.
heck, i am even for free market citizenship. If somebody does not want their, for purposes of this thread, canadian citizenship anymore they should be free to sell it to the highest bidder.
Loyalty, now why should anybody hold loyalty to a country? It is a geopolitical creation and nothing more. It is an area bounded by black lines drawn on a map.
heck, i am even for free market citizenship. If somebody does not want their, for purposes of this thread, canadian citizenship anymore they should be free to sell it to the highest bidder.
Loyalty, now why should anybody hold loyalty to a country? It is a geopolitical creation and nothing more. It is an area bounded by black lines drawn on a map.
#17
Re: RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid
people should be able to have as many citizenships as they desire.
heck, i am even for free market citizenship. If somebody does not want their, for purposes of this thread, canadian citizenship anymore they should be free to sell it to the highest bidder.
Loyalty, now why should anybody hold loyalty to a country? It is a geopolitical creation and nothing more. It is an area bounded by black lines drawn on a map.
#18
Re: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006
I have no problem with dual citizenship. I've been thinking about getting my Irish Citizenship this year myself.
I don't have divided loyalities and to think this way is a step backwards into our racist past beliefs.
I don't have divided loyalities and to think this way is a step backwards into our racist past beliefs.
#19
Re: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006
I believe we can allow dual citizenship, but selectively. We need to look at what other nationality this individual seeking Canadian/American citizenship holds. If a war or other type of armed conflict were to break out against a rogue nation, we want to be sure our citizen will not go and fight for the enemy. There are also espionage/nationa l security issues to consider.
#20
Re: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by Nascar_James
Whatever, if your going to be a terrorist or whatever, you could be one and be a landed immorgrant or even a tourist. At least if you check up on people who apply for Duel citizenship you actually start making a file on them and can look into there activies from the other nation. I believe we can allow dual citizenship, but selectively. We need to look at what other nationality this individual seeking Canadian/American citizenship holds. If a war or other type of armed conflict were to break out against a rogue nation, we want to be sure our citizen will not go and fight for the enemy. There are also espionage/nationa l security issues to consider.
Even if war breaks out with there mother nation both the USA and Canada had internment camps for the Japeness, and they were Canadian and American citizens. So I don't see how not allowing dual citizenship changes anything.
I don't see how being a citizen for Libiya (foe/rogue nation nothing to do with 9/11) or Saudia Arbia (Ally of the USA and the nation of most of the terrorists of 9/11) have anything to do with it. Friendly and rogue nations have little to do with this.
#21
Re: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by Nascar_James
I believe we can allow dual citizenship, but selectively. We need to look at what other nationality this individual seeking Canadian/American citizenship holds. If a war or other type of armed conflict were to break out against a rogue nation, we want to be sure our citizen will not go and fight for the enemy. There are also espionage/nationa l security issues to consider.
paranoia, may destroy ya!
Liberal
#22
Give Dual Citizens the Benefit of the Doubt
Jan 3rd, 2006
I believe that citizens who hold dual citizenship should, unless they give a reason otherwise, be given the benefit of the doubt by the Government of Canada. Citizens should be permitted to hold several citizenships.
I would submit that the following policies should be taken into consideration for debate by members of this Board, and furthermore, by Members of Parliament (they are going to be submitted to my Member of Parliament once the next session opens):
(a) A citizen of Canada may choose to pursue citizenship in any other country, provided that such a country, at the time of the pursual of citizenship, is not presently at war with Canada, and is not under heavy export restrictions, at the discretion of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration;
(b) If a country with which a citizen of Canada holds citizenship declares war on Canada, or Canada declares war on such a country, then the Government of Canada shall require that such a citizen be asked to renew their Oath of Allegiance to Canada and the Queen of Canada, or if preferred, a similar-in-principle oath to Canada;
(c) If a citizen refuses to renew his or her Oath of Allegiance, pursuant to Section (b) of this proposal, then such a citizen may have his or her Canadian citizenship revoked, if a ruling of an independant commission, to be styled the Commission on Wartime Citizenship Status, so deems appropriate;
(d) A ruling made pursuant to Section (c) of this proposal may be overturned without notice by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, or through an appeal process to be conducted through the Federal Court of Appeal and, if the Federal decision is appealed, then the Supreme Court of Canada.
(e) No citizen of Canada, or permanent resident of Canada, or anyone found to be within the borders of Canada, whether or not such a person holds status within Canada or the Provinces thereof, shall be deported exclusively for the reason that such a person is a citizen of, or has resided in or does reside in, a country with which Canada is at war.
Just some thoughts and ideas on my part.
Edit Corrected to accomodate alternative oaths, and corrected a typo.
I would submit that the following policies should be taken into consideration for debate by members of this Board, and furthermore, by Members of Parliament (they are going to be submitted to my Member of Parliament once the next session opens):
(a) A citizen of Canada may choose to pursue citizenship in any other country, provided that such a country, at the time of the pursual of citizenship, is not presently at war with Canada, and is not under heavy export restrictions, at the discretion of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration;
(b) If a country with which a citizen of Canada holds citizenship declares war on Canada, or Canada declares war on such a country, then the Government of Canada shall require that such a citizen be asked to renew their Oath of Allegiance to Canada and the Queen of Canada, or if preferred, a similar-in-principle oath to Canada;
(c) If a citizen refuses to renew his or her Oath of Allegiance, pursuant to Section (b) of this proposal, then such a citizen may have his or her Canadian citizenship revoked, if a ruling of an independant commission, to be styled the Commission on Wartime Citizenship Status, so deems appropriate;
(d) A ruling made pursuant to Section (c) of this proposal may be overturned without notice by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, or through an appeal process to be conducted through the Federal Court of Appeal and, if the Federal decision is appealed, then the Supreme Court of Canada.
(e) No citizen of Canada, or permanent resident of Canada, or anyone found to be within the borders of Canada, whether or not such a person holds status within Canada or the Provinces thereof, shall be deported exclusively for the reason that such a person is a citizen of, or has resided in or does reside in, a country with which Canada is at war.
Just some thoughts and ideas on my part.
Edit Corrected to accomodate alternative oaths, and corrected a typo. #23
RE: Down with dual citize
Jan 3rd, 2006
From purely an economic standpoint, there is no incentive to be a dual. You are required to pay dual taxes..can only invest in the most limited selective way, so on and so forth.
But besides all of that, i would not want to give up my Canadian citizenship if i were to become an american. I don't see why an arbitrarily defined border show define who I am.
In fact, i wish that immigration rules were less stringint. I should be able to move where ever i want to live for work purposes without having to be either sponosored, married or have a job in my field. If i made a choice to move to the US..so be it.
But besides all of that, i would not want to give up my Canadian citizenship if i were to become an american. I don't see why an arbitrarily defined border show define who I am.
In fact, i wish that immigration rules were less stringint. I should be able to move where ever i want to live for work purposes without having to be either sponosored, married or have a job in my field. If i made a choice to move to the US..so be it.
#24
RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006
A friend of mine has dual citizenship with the U.S. One of his parents was born there and half his family if there. In that sort of case I understand having dule citizenship. However he says that if things keep going like they have in the states he may get rid if it. He views himself the be Canadian compleatly.
#25
Re: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006
My aunts and uncles lived under dual US Canadian citizenship quite happily. When I went to a dinner at their house in the US I was litterly attacked because "I" sold "my" wheat to China!
After living down there their whole lives the Canadian part simply wore off! Knowing Americans who have moved to Canada on the other hand, seem to remain American forever; Canadian being a convenience of one form or another.
Having said all that the Memers of the Fraser Institute are a number of US Canadian dual citizenship. All for opening up the borders; all for unlimited access to industry both ways. All fail to realize that the north bound business people are treated as though they are entering a country were as the south bound people have to face a second hearing, that of the state they are going to.
It comes to mind that one of Alberta's "elected" or "nominated" senators was of dual citizen ship. These guys have no problem with a US citizen holding a place in the senate.
The Fraser institue is behind Harper 100%. That's where most his "good ideas" come from; the US membership in the Fraser Institute.
After living down there their whole lives the Canadian part simply wore off! Knowing Americans who have moved to Canada on the other hand, seem to remain American forever; Canadian being a convenience of one form or another.
Having said all that the Memers of the Fraser Institute are a number of US Canadian dual citizenship. All for opening up the borders; all for unlimited access to industry both ways. All fail to realize that the north bound business people are treated as though they are entering a country were as the south bound people have to face a second hearing, that of the state they are going to.
It comes to mind that one of Alberta's "elected" or "nominated" senators was of dual citizen ship. These guys have no problem with a US citizen holding a place in the senate.
The Fraser institue is behind Harper 100%. That's where most his "good ideas" come from; the US membership in the Fraser Institute.
#26
Re: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006
Paradox you should run for parliment. you appear to draw up policy on a whim. lol. Either that or make a mirco-nation. lol.
Liberal
#27
RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006
Thank you, Finder.
With any luck, you're reading the posts of the future Hon. Member for Newton—North Delta.
With any luck, you're reading the posts of the future Hon. Member for Newton—North Delta.
#28
Re: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006
I'd vote for you for sure. Well as long as you made a promise to me about voting for electoral reform and seante reform you would have my vote 100%, even if you are a Liberal. lmao
Liberal
#29
RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006
Well, lol, I think on this forum I've gotten a bit better at compromising with, for lack of a better term, "the Opposition" when the debate reaches a certain "critical" point where neither side would budge, lol.
#30
Re: RE: Down with dual citizenship!
Jan 3rd, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by FiveParadox
Thats why you'd make a good MP. We need more ppl like you.Well, lol, I think on this forum I've gotten a bit better at compromising with, for lack of a better term, "the Opposition" when the debate reaches a certain "critical" point where neither side would budge, lol.
BTW I I finished my nomination at City Council today. Hopefully I'll get elected myself. But you should really consider going for MPP or MP with the Liberals or the NDP, I have a feeling you'd do very well and help a lot of people.
I almost believe it's your civic duty to run.
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