Changes Needed in Canadian Immigration Policy


Timetrvlr
Avatar
#1
A lot of Canadians are not happy with the way our immigration system works now. Most immigrants congregate in the big urban centres and have trouble competing with hundreds of other applicants for a few jobs. This puts a lot of strain on our social services that results in resentment from established residents. I think we do need immigrants to fill up this vast country, we just don't need them in the cities.

Somehow, we have to drag our immigration beaureaucrats into the realities we face. We need skilled immigrants with the right skills in the right places if we are to benefit Canada as a whole. We have a vast Northland that is virtually uninhabited but we have employers there unable to attract employees. We have small towns all over the interior of the provinces that are unable to attract the skilled professionals we need such as Docters, Dentists, other medical professionals, and skilled tradespeople of all kinds. Most of our Northern towns are a paradise for entrepreneurs of every sort.

Most immigrants, and indeed most Canadians have an irrational aversion to living outside the densly populated areas. I confess, I do not understand this phenomonon, it doesn't make any sense to me! The quality of life and cost of living in most of the small towns in Canada is far superior to the smoggy, congested, crime-ridden metropolitan areas.

As for jobs, how many of you have kids in their mid-twenties that are making over $30 an hour and top-notch benefits with sky's-the-limit potential in the city? Yet our northern industries beg for responsible, qualified employees. If the people in this country can ever conquer their agrophobic fears and spread out a little, most of our problems would disappear! That is why I'm a strong proponent of allowing skilled immigrants in, but assigned for five years to a specific area in the North where their skills are required.

If five years of Northern service were the requirement for immigration; the immigrants would take the giant step of assimilating into Canadian society instead of huddling together in a city ghetto with other countrymen. Canada would greatly benefit from their services during that five years and prepare them for a future as a Canadian.

No better example of the truth of this can be found than in the plight, and then the ultimate success, of Newfoundlanders. When the fishing stopped, they were out of a job, so they migrated en masse to Fort McMurray, Alberta in the early days of the Tar Sands project. Now, most of that cities people are from Newfoundland. They didn't stop there, now most of the towns in the North are full of Newfies, making big money and contributing in every way to their adopted communities!

 
the caracal kid
Avatar
#2
5 years of service?

interesting, but does it not undermine the freedom to move about the country? Or are you thinking more along the lines of a "contract" like some doctors make where in exchange for a town helping finance their schooling, they agree to establish practice in said town? Before we get to assigning people to areas, we need to do something about recognizing credientials from other countries first, though. If you think a person with a PhD driving a cab in toronto is frustrated, imagine being the same person driving that cab in some isolated location with limited cultural exposure.

Besides, people stay out of many small towns because they are completely lacking. If canadians don't want to live in a cultureless location, who are we as a supposedly free country to create a new class of citizens that can only be where "we" need them. It does sound a tad too much like a slave trade to me on second thought.
 
Reverend Blair
#3
I mostly agree Timetrvlr. It isn't just the north though. We have a lot of rural areas on the prairies with many of the same problems. It isn't even for skilled work...my mother has trouble hiring somebody to clear her snow in the winter. When she needs work done on her house she either pays through the nose or one of us has to do it, which means a lot of travelling.

We have a lot of room for immigration in this country. We also have room to tie free educations to service in under-serviced areas. If we offered free education to anybody, immigrant or born here, willing to work in rural areas or the north for a set period of time, we would solve a lot of our problems.
 
Summer
#4
Few people will want to immigrate if they are only allowed to live in what they consider undesirable areas for the first several years. In fact, I know that would put me right off, and I *am* planning to immigrate to Canada within the next few years. For one thing, there are not always jobs available in small towns - no matter what country you're in. Secondly, many people immigrate with a job offer already in hand, which may well be in a major city. Thirdly, many come in on temporary work papers and then apply for permanent residency from within Canada. If they are already working in Vancouver or Toronto, would you really want to tell them that they can only have permanent residency if they are willing to quit that job and move up north to a small town? Not to mention that immigrant families often come in fits and starts, with family members who are already citizens sponsoring other family members to immigrate to Canada from the originating country - would you want to deprive these people of the opportunity to be with their families?

Just so you'll understand my particular POV, I'm an American living in Cleveland with my fiance, who happens to work for a company which is looking into opening a new location in Toronto within the next few years. When that happens, he plans to request a transfer to that location. We plan to then apply for permanent residency, I plan to return to university studies (having been out of such study for many years) and we plan to pursue Canadian citizenship. We have no desire to live in a small town, his company will not open a location in a small town (due to the nature of their business) and he would like to remain with the company. Meanwhile, the studies I wish to pursue are also not something I am likely to be able to do in a small town, and we also would like to remain not far from the Toronto area for at least several years because it is convenient to Cleveland, where the rest of our family is, so that we may visit frequently as his nieces grow up.
 
Reverend Blair
#5
That's why I'd tie it to education, Summer. We have plenty of doctors and engineers etc who moved here only to find that their credentials are no good here. They can't afford to go back to school. Many of them would have come anyway.

So offer them free education to upgrade their credentials on the understanding they will spend time in remote and rural areas at full wages for a set period of time if they want. Let them buy it out out if they decide they can't handle it. Be honest about the offer before they come to Canada.

I know a lot of people have moved to remote areas thinking they'd take the money and leave in a year only to discover that they loved it and wanted to stay. Others will leave and be replaced. Others will choose not to take, or won't need, the offer.

It wouldn't be restricted to immigrants but would address our problems and theirs at the same time.
 
Said1
Free Thinker
Avatar
#6
The following is a bit dated, but addresses a few comments in this thread.

Quote:

Liberals preparing to unveil immigration plan

Updated Sat. Sep. 24 2005 4:29 PM ET

Canadian Press

OTTAWA -- Canada's current immigration levels would rise 40 per cent within five years under a plan that will soon be presented to the federal cabinet, The Canadian Press has learned.

Prime Minister Paul Martin described immigration in a speech this week as key to Canada's economic success in an era defined by low birth rates, an aging population and an ever-deepening shortage of skilled workers. His immigration minister will address that challenge by announcing the target by Nov. 1 after consulting cabinet colleagues.

Joe Volpe will table a document in Parliament setting out the goal and will also deliver a wide-ranging plan for meeting it in a presentation to his cabinet colleagues next month.

Volpe declined to provide specifics but said something needs to be done to ramp up the country's immigration levels.

"We've got to have more," the minister said in an interview Friday. "There isn't a place in the country that hasn't used that four-letter word: 'More'."

Volpe said the reality of Canada's immigration needs hit home as he travelled the country over the last five months and heard the same refrain from coast to coast, in rich and poor provinces and in urban and rural areas.

Government sources say his proposed target would see immigration levels rise to one per cent of the Canadian population within five years -- or about 328,000 per year and growing.

That would represent an increase of about 40 per cent from last year's level of 235,824 people who became permanent residents of Canada -- which fell within the government's current target range of 220,000 to 245,000 new residents per year.

Prime ministers have long cited the one-per-cent goal without success. Volpe's plan would set out a strategy for finally achieving the target, though one Opposition critic said the Liberals are merely recycling a broken promise.

"I find it interesting that after 12 years the Liberals are talking about meeting their own targets," said Tory critic Diane Ablonczy.

"Parliament's going to want to know -- what's changed?"

Municipal and provincial officials, labour leaders and businesspeople struck a recurring theme while lobbying Volpe over the summer.

Economic growth is being hampered in places like Edmonton, Calgary and Fort McMurray because they can't fill jobs fast enough, Volpe said.

Rural communities in Atlantic Canada are dying and existing public services such as schools and hospitals are emptying for lack of use.

Continued here
 
Reverend Blair
#7
Then there's our stupid refugee policy. The United States is not a safe third country.
 
MMMike
#8
Summer, we'll have to ship you up to Nunavut for a few years before letting you come to Toronto. :P

Beyond simply providing immigrants with accurate information on job availability, the government has no role here. Northern and rural regions must compete for talent like any other place. In most cases, that will mean substantially higher salaries. If the incentives ($$) are high enough, people will respond.

I can just imagine now a new government program to count jobs and sign deals to get people to move to where they're needed. What a total disaster that would be. They can't even count guns for goodness sake.
 
Reverend Blair
#9
If what you're suggesting actually worked, Mikey, we wouldn't have any problems. What you're suggesting doesn't work though, we've been watching it not work for decades, so we need incentives.
 
MMMike
#10
If no one wants to live in those communities Rev, why should we try to sustain them at all?
 
Summer
#11
Mike, Bingo!
 
annabattler
#12
Immigration has changed over the past several decades.
It used to be that men would arrive first,taking any job available to them,get themselves established and then bring over the rest of their family.Many of the mines in Northern Ontario and the forest industry were manned by immigrants.
The "economic" immigrants(those willing to invest $300,000.00 or more)are automatically going to invest in large urban areas...and I'd be willing to bet most of those immigrants are from large urban areas themselves.They arrive with their families,like the cities,and are more likely to meet other immigrants of their countries there...familiarity is important,for people in a strange land.
Someone waxed poetic about Newfoundlanders and Fort McMurray...it might be important to talk to some of those folk. Yes,they have found jobs...but their desperate longing for Newfoundland and their extended family remains with them.
I get most concerned about the refugees,who arrive here without language,without skills,a lot without a basic education.They come from tribal systems,rural areas and all of a sudden find themselves immersed in a huge city,living in crowded apartemts. More needs to be done to help them through this process of settling into a new country.
 
coldstream
Avatar
#13
The healthiest immigration policy is one that does not bring in 'elite' investors, but one that brings in people who'll fill in traditional entry roles for immigrants. The same one's our parents filled in. This idea that we can import 'investment' is pure folly. We would be much better off with government managed and available credit.. into an industrial environment that protects the domestic market place with tariffs. It wouldn't hurt to encourage values consistent to the traditional ones on which the country was built. Those are western, Christian values, but apparently we've decided to ditch these in favour of our new secular scientific religion.
 
Reverend Blair
#14
Quote:

If no one wants to live in those communities Rev, why should we try to sustain them at all?

Because there are people in those communities. Canadian people. If the communities grow, those people will have better lives. Because at one time nobody wanted to live in Upper and Lower Canada either and this country wouldn't exist if everybody took your attitude. Because we need to bring immigrants into this country to keep growing, but just dumping them in the major cities and expecting them to sink or swim isn't working for them or us. Because we have a duty to accept refugees who arrive here with little more than the clothes on their backs.

Most of all though, Mikey, because some things can't be measured in terms of corporate profit margins.
 
TenPenny
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#15
Interestingly enough, in rural NB, where McCain Foods has their head office, there is a huge population of immigrants, from China and India...and these people are skilled technical and IT people. Our Canadian-born people don't want to live in rural NB, so guess what happens.

I've interviewed about a half dozen trained engineers who have immigrated to NB, and their experience and qualifications would, for the most part, put any grad from any university in Canada to shame.

It's truly a mind-expanding experience, to meet these people.
 
the caracal kid
Avatar
#16
I am with you on this MMMike,

people came to upper and lower canada of their own choice, and moved around or left of their own choice. the same freedom should remain in place for current immigrents. As with Tens' example, if jobs are there, and somebody is willing to move there, let them (no matter what their "status" is).

The idea of mandating people to live in shrinking communities just to allow the people there an easy way to keep a community alive does not work. If a community can not compete for poeple, it dies. How many mining towns and the like disappeared when the mines closed?
 
Said1
Free Thinker
Avatar
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by TenPenny

Interestingly enough, in rural NB, where McCain Foods has their head office, there is a huge population of immigrants, from China and India...and these people are skilled technical and IT people. Our Canadian-born people don't want to live in rural NB, so guess what happens.

I've interviewed about a half dozen trained engineers who have immigrated to NB, and their experience and qualifications would, for the most part, put any grad from any university in Canada to shame.

It's truly a mind-expanding experience, to meet these people.

I had a similar experience while working at a local bingo hall. A lot of the men who applied for the parking lot attendant position were from Africa, and held advanced degrees in science and math. Really nice men, with famlies and a desire to WORK. Each and every one hired, was eventually fired for some reason or another, but mainly becuase the people who owned the hall were bigotted assholes. I was fired too....... something about a bad attitude.
 
Reverend Blair
#18
People came to Canada because they had little choice, Caracal. The United Empire Loyalists came because they were chased out of the US. The Irish came because they were starving. The Scottish because they were booted off their land to make way for sheep. The Eastern Europeans came because they were poor and there was land here. Many of the English came to escape debts or because they were desperately poor. People came from all over because they had done something to piss of the authorities...sometimes they were common criminals and sometimes it was religious or political persecution, but they headed for the boats rather than heading for prison.

Many came without few or no skills. We gave them land as enticement. We gave them jobs. We gave them a chance. That chance always had strings of some sort attached.

My great-grandparents got off the train in Winnipeg and were told where their land was. They didn't choose Saskatchewan, the government sent them there for reasons of economic development and to protect Canadian sovereignty.
 
the caracal kid
Avatar
#19
they still had choice though.

Now you will tell me that under this proposal, people would still have the choice to come to canada or not and it is fair so long is the government is up-front about the requirements.

I think that the federal government should stay out of the business of supplying people to communities. If communities can not lure people to move their on their own merits why should the government step in? I am thinking of communities like businesses. We tend to not desire having governments bail out failing businesses.
 
Reverend Blair
#20
Quote:

they still had choice though.

Yeah, they could come here, go to the US (which had similar requirements), or stay where they were. Except some of them couldn't get into the US (and many who wanted to come to Canada couldn't get in here) and none of them considered staying where they were a choice otherwise they wouldn't have come.

Quote:

Now you will tell me that under this proposal, people would still have the choice to come to canada or not and it is fair so long is the government is up-front about the requirements.

They'd still be welcome to come. If they wanted the free education, they'd have to go where required. That would be available to Canadians too, not just immigrants.



Quote:

I think that the federal government should stay out of the business of supplying people to communities. If communities can not lure people to move their on their own merits why should the government step in? I am thinking of communities like businesses.

Communities aren't businesses though. They exist and are successful or fail for a myriad of reasons. You know why many towns are where they are on the prairies? Because that's where the trains had to stop for coal and water. Do you know why Winnipeg is the big city in Manitoba? Because a couple of politicians had a fight and one of them won, so the railway came here instead of running through Selkirk. Do you know why Ottawa is the capital of Canada? Because the Queen made an arbitrary decision. She may or may not have thrown a dart at a map, but the decision was that arbitrary. Do you know why Regina is where it is? Because that's where the railway ended when they started massacring the bison.

None of those places were put where they are because of sound business decisions. They are where are they because of the needs of the CNR and CPR or because of petty political squabbling. Most have prospered to one extent or another because that's where the people came as a result.

The North is no different. The communities are where they are for historical reasons...usually silly ones in today's context. They are where the people are though, and those people deserve the same chances as the rest of us.
 
the caracal kid
Avatar
#21
yes, communities are established for arbitrary reasons, and they die for arbitrary reasons as well. I say let them die if they can not generate enough interest for people to want to be there.

On the education issue though, i am in partial agreement with you. If a community wants to lure people with education in exchange for service thats fine, but the fed government should stay out of such activities. It is not the federal government's job to control migration patterns.
 
missile
Conservative
Avatar
#22
The McCains' example of a forced community came about because of the proximity to the potato fields,making it more convenient to set up the processing plants..Florenceville just grew up around this.
 
TenPenny
Avatar
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by missile

The McCains' example of a forced community came about because of the proximity to the potato fields,making it more convenient to set up the processing plants..Florenceville just grew up around this.

Of course it did; there is a significant area of manufacturing in this area, probably one of the greatest concentrations in the Province. But good old Canadians don't want to live and work there for some reason.

"forced community" is an interesting word choice, though. Same as any resource based industry, you go where the resources are.
 
Nosferax
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

People came to Canada because they had little choice, Caracal. The United Empire Loyalists came because they were chased out of the US. The Irish came because they were starving. The Scottish because they were booted off their land to make way for sheep. The Eastern Europeans came because they were poor and there was land here. Many of the English came to escape debts or because they were desperately poor. People came from all over because they had done something to piss of the authorities...sometimes they were common criminals and sometimes it was religious or political persecution, but they headed for the boats rather than heading for prison.

Many came without few or no skills. We gave them land as enticement. We gave them jobs. We gave them a chance. That chance always had strings of some sort attached.

My great-grandparents got off the train in Winnipeg and were told where their land was. They didn't choose Saskatchewan, the government sent them there for reasons of economic development and to protect Canadian sovereignty.

Wow, and you forgot the first wave of immigrant... The French!
Unless you were only talking about upper Canada...
 
Reverend Blair
#25
Quote:

yes, communities are established for arbitrary reasons, and they die for arbitrary reasons as well. I say let them die if they can not generate enough interest for people to want to be there.

But if we have no people in our north, we will lose sovereignty there. Having a population base is more important in that context than having the military there. There is also the matter of culture. The northern cultures are worth preserving because they represent much of what Canada is. As they develop they will evolve further and add more to the fabric of Canada.

To be so willing to just toss those away because you can't put a cash value on them is short-sighted.

Quote:

If a community wants to lure people with education in exchange for service thats fine, but the fed government should stay out of such activities. It is not the federal government's job to control migration patterns.

The federal government is in charge of immigration. It is where the territories turn for funding for diversification and education projects. It plays a much larger role in the governing of territories than it does of provinces, but it is providing money for municipal development and infrastructure. That includes rural municipalities.

To say that the federal government has no role in this is to say that Canada should just be chopped up and auctioned off to the highest bidder.
 
Summer
#26
Provinces can do their own nominations for immigrants, though. Perhaps they ought to ramp up these nominations and then the province can have a say in which immigrants go where. Let the territories do the same.

Meanwhile, have there still be just plain old immigration alongside it at the federal level where people can go where they want to settle or start.

This way you'd get a healthy and natural competition between the various parts of Canada for immigrants, while still allowing a large element of choice to the immigrants themselves.
 
Reverend Blair
#27
Quote:

Provinces can do their own nominations for immigrants, though. Perhaps they ought to ramp up these nominations and then the province can have a say in which immigrants go where. Let the territories do the same.

But then you end up with Whitehorse in direct competition with Toronto. Now, anybody who knows anything about both will naturally choose Whitehorse, but most immigrants have never heard of it.
 
MMMike
#28
Before we undertake this massive exercise in social engineering, please explain to me again why we should do this, and what the goal is anyways.
 
Reverend Blair
#29
To allow enough development in the north and in rural areas to make them vital and vibrant contributors to Canada instead of just sources of raw materials for rich men in suits to get even richer off of.
 
Summer
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

Quote:

Provinces can do their own nominations for immigrants, though. Perhaps they ought to ramp up these nominations and then the province can have a say in which immigrants go where. Let the territories do the same.

But then you end up with Whitehorse in direct competition with Toronto. Now, anybody who knows anything about both will naturally choose Whitehorse, but most immigrants have never heard of it.

So? Let them do some research of their own, ask questions, etc. Make the information available. Sure beats the hell out of treating immigrants (PEOPLE!) like they are a commodity just to be sent wherever someone else wants them, regardless of where they themselves want to go.

Canada's supposed to be a land of freedom, no? Or does that only apply to people who were actually born in Canada?

Edit: Remember, immigrants are not ALL members of the great unwashed and uneducated masses from the amorphous "somewhere else", incapable of gathering information to make a perfecly reasonable decision on their own.
 

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