Liberals, Conservatives Virtually Tied in Canada


unclepercy
Avatar
#1
OK, someone said all I had to do was ask in order to learn about Canada. This article has one particularly confusing statement in it. Could someone explain it, please?

November 8, 2005

(Angus Reid Global Scan) – The Liberal party’s advantage has dwindled considerably in Canada’s federal political scene, according to a poll by Ipsos-Reid released by CanWest Global. 31 per cent of respondents would vote for the governing party in the next federal election.

The opposition Conservative party is second with 30 per cent, followed by the New Democratic Party (NDP) with 19 per cent, the Bloc Québécois with 13 per cent and the Green party with five per cent. Support for the Grits fell by seven points since late October, while backing for the Tories increased by four points.

Liberal leader Paul Martin took over as Canada’s prime minister in December 2003. In the June 2004 election, the Liberals secured a minority government with 135 seats in the House of Commons. Last year, Martin called a public inquiry into the federal sponsorship program—initiated during the tenure of prime minister Jean Chrétien to promote Canada in Quebec—after auditor-general Sheila Fraser concluded that approximately $75 million U.S. of the program’s budget was paid to Liberal-friendly advertising firms for little or no work.

URL --

This seems crazy to me. That's like promoting steak in Texas.
What does that mean? And why would that be necessary?

Uncle
 
no1important
#2
Go to the poll section in the federal election forums and the pols have changed since that one 35% Lib and 28% conservative.
 
unclepercy
Avatar
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by no1important

Go to the poll section in the federal election forums and the pols have changed since that one 35% Lib and 28% conservative.

Well, this article was dated today. But anyway, I was asked why Canada would promote Canada in Quebec, which is Canada. That makes no sense. What is the motivation?

Percy
 
Reverend Blair
#4
You really have to read our history to understand it, Uncle. I'll give you a quick rundown though.

There has always been an element of separatism in Quebec. It goes back to the French/English wars.

In the 1960's and 1970's we had some terrorism by a group called the FLQ. If you read their manifesto, they really weren't being that unreasonable on a lot of points and they likely could have gone on blowing up mailboxes for years without anybody taking much notice. Then a particularly militant faction of the FLQ kidnapped a diplomat and a cabinet minister. One of them turned up dead in the trunk of a Chevy and all hell broke loose.

Our Prime Minister invoked the War Measures Act...martial law...in Quebec and our army was arresting people left, right and centre.

All that, along with something called the Quiet Revolution...kind of an intellectually based decision to be a separate nation whether recognised or not...led to separatism becoming a legitimate political movement. One of Canada's best politicans, whether you love him or hate him, a man named Rene Levesque, got it really rolling.

Levesque held a referendum but lost by a fairly large margin. He was still building separatist support though, and his referendum was really just part of that building.

Then Brian Mulroney came along and did his level best to piss off everybody in the country. We all wanted to separate and become 30 million little nations of our own. Who could blame us?

Ten years ago, shortly after the Liberals got back into power, we had a referendum in which Quebec almost decided to leave Canada. The margin was cigarette paper thin...1%. The Liberals formed the sponsorship program to promote Canada within Quebec as a result of that referendum. It was basically an advertising program to promote Canada. It worked to an extent too...separatist sentiment was waning and things seemed to be settling down.

Right now separatism is on the rise. The next referendum, and there will almost certainly be one, will be at least as close as the last one.
 
Shiva
#5
Just a small correction- not all people who were a part of the Quiet Revolution were separatists, but all separatists were a part of the Quiet Revolution.

The situation in Quebec in the 60s and 70s was such that all positions of power and influence in Quebec were held by English speaking Quebecers, effectively creating an English speaking bourgeiousie, with the French speaking Quebeckers left in the cold doing more menial labour. The idea behind the movement was to empower the local French speakers so that they, too, could succeed to the highest posts in Quebec in gov't and the private sector, destroying old barriers and segregations. The province had been run on a more colonial style previous to this time, and Quebeckers had many legitimate grievances against the status quo.

Consequently, some people felt that in order to be rid of this English domination, a separate nation would need to be formed. Separatists were actively involved in creating a French speaking Quebec business class and exerting influence in political policies to ensure that French was the main language of Quebec (particularly in Montreal, the home of the English speaking Quebeckers). However, there are many Quebeckers who wanted to be rid of the social inequality, but were nevertheless proudly Canadian.

To answer your question about why the federal gov't was interested in using public monies to promote federalism in Quebec, the answer is simply that a separatist gov't was in power in Quebec that was using public monies to spread its message, in attempt to foster support and bring federalists over to the separatist side. The federal gov't had to do something to counter this campaign, and decided to play the same game and sponsor public events, festivals, etc., in Quebec, with public money provided that Canadian symbols, etc., were visibly shown. The provincial gov't had reneged on its responsibility to promote federalism and the federal gov't had to step in and play the role.
 
Reverend Blair
#6
Quote:

Just a small correction- not all people who were a part of the Quiet Revolution were separatists, but all separatists were a part of the Quiet Revolution.

Just trying to keep things simple, Shiva. I also didn't get into the Jesuits or how they acted as power-brokers and controlled who was educated etc. They got kicked out of positions of influence in nearly every country on earth during the 17 and 1800's, including France, yet they maintained massive influence in Quebec until the 1970s.

Chretien was educated by the Jesuits, btw. So were most of the francophone politicians and thinkers in Quebec up until the late sixties. When people wonder how come we have so many leaders from Quebec, they should go talk to a Jesuit priest for a while. It doesn't take long to understand that they provide a better education in skills needed for political debate than most institutions. Their students become leaders because they are better at the game.

Are you confused yet, Uncle?
 
unclepercy
Avatar
#7
Well, yes, I am still confused. I have been on high tech Canadian forum for a few years, and they are super smart techno-geeks.
I started 2-3 discussions about America vs. Canada and Canadian Politics. Eventually someone said, "If you figure out Canadian politics, would you explain it to us?"

So, I pretty much gave up on them. Haven't been there in a while, because I got the home theatre setup I wanted for the time being.
Also the computer. I pretty much knew all the computer stuff, but I got some help on the home theatre.

Maybe it would be simpler if you told me what is the same in US and Canadian politics? There must be something. We both originally came from England...what is it? Please don't say absolutely nothing.

Uncle
 
no1important
#8
Our parliament or House of Commons, elections, form miniority or majority governments is pretty well the same as Englands.
 
Reverend Blair
#9
Quote:

Maybe it would be simpler if you told me what is the same in US and Canadian politics?

A bit. Our Conservatives follow neo-conservative doctrine almost to the letter. The Christian right has a lot of influence over them and they keep trying to mix that with politics (abortion, SSM...not too much creationism yet, but it's coming).

Our followers of Leo Strauss here belong to something called the Calgary School (as opposed to the Chicago School). They also use right wing think tanks to influence policy. Our Conservatives have a problem though...they have a bad habit of confusing American jingoism with Canadian soft nationalism since they've been unable to generate much Canadian jingoism.

The Conservatives get much of their money from the business lobby (though that's restricted by our laws) and it shows in their policy.

Our Conservatives are like your Republicans.

Our Liberals have moved right since Paul Martin haas come on the seen and are now close to your Democrats. They play the same game of running from the left and governing from the right once they get into power too.

Because of promises made when they were running, they can sometimes be tricked into putting people ahead of money.

They generally like "free" trade and get much of their money from corporate interests. They tend to be better on social issues than the Conservatives because they don't mix church and state.

They are also better at real-politik. While Harper mumbles about some vast silent majority that simply doesn't exist, the Liberals look at the polls and do what they have to while doing what they can to keep their corporate masters happy.

That's about where the similarities end. Twenty years ago, we didn't have a single party as far to the right on the political spectrum as your Democrats. Now we have one that is basically Republican and one that is very close to your present-day Democrats.

That brings us to third parties. Nader (you really should make him President) got what, less than 1% of the vote last time around right? You have no significant third party movement in the United States. At this point all similarity to the US really falls apart.

Our oldest third party is the NDP. Because we sometimes have minority governments (nothing like it in your two-party system) they have been able to get progressive legislation through to help actual Canadian people. They have gotten Canada universal health care, pensions, labour legislation, unemployment insurance and other social programs by putting forth policy initiatives that were popular with the majority of Canadians. The ruling party (generally the Liberals) have been forced to adopt those policies because they needed the NDP votes and Canadians liked the policies.

Our other major third party is the Bloq Quebecois. They hold more seats than the NDP and were even the Official Oppostion for a while. They exist to break the country up. That is their main reason for being. At the same time they do a decent job of representing the centre-left values of most Quebecois. Imagine if NY, Mich. and Mass. had a single government that was left-leaning and had seccession as it's ultimate goal. That's the BQ.

That's federal politics. The provincial/federal interactions are also much more complex than your federal government has with your states.
 
unclepercy
Avatar
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

Quote:

Maybe it would be simpler if you told me what is the same in US and Canadian politics?

A bit. Our Conservatives follow neo-conservative doctrine almost to the letter. The Christian right has a lot of influence over them and they keep trying to mix that with politics (abortion, SSM...not too much creationism yet, but it's coming).

Our followers of Leo Strauss here belong to something called the Calgary School (as opposed to the Chicago School). They also use right wing think tanks to influence policy. Our Conservatives have a problem though...they have a bad habit of confusing American jingoism with Canadian soft nationalism since they've been unable to generate much Canadian jingoism.

The Conservatives get much of their money from the business lobby (though that's restricted by our laws) and it shows in their policy.

Our Conservatives are like your Republicans.

Our Liberals have moved right since Paul Martin haas come on the seen and are now close to your Democrats. They play the same game of running from the left and governing from the right once they get into power too.

Because of promises made when they were running, they can sometimes be tricked into putting people ahead of money.

They generally like "free" trade and get much of their money from corporate interests. They tend to be better on social issues than the Conservatives because they don't mix church and state.

They are also better at real-politik. While Harper mumbles about some vast silent majority that simply doesn't exist, the Liberals look at the polls and do what they have to while doing what they can to keep their corporate masters happy.

That's about where the similarities end. Twenty years ago, we didn't have a single party as far to the right on the political spectrum as your Democrats. Now we have one that is basically Republican and one that is very close to your present-day Democrats.

That brings us to third parties. Nader (you really should make him President) got what, less than 1% of the vote last time around right? You have no significant third party movement in the United States. At this point all similarity to the US really falls apart.

Our oldest third party is the NDP. Because we sometimes have minority governments (nothing like it in your two-party system) they have been able to get progressive legislation through to help actual Canadian people. They have gotten Canada universal health care, pensions, labour legislation, unemployment insurance and other social programs by putting forth policy initiatives that were popular with the majority of Canadians. The ruling party (generally the Liberals) have been forced to adopt those policies because they needed the NDP votes and Canadians liked the policies.

Our other major third party is the Bloq Quebecois. They hold more seats than the NDP and were even the Official Oppostion for a while. They exist to break the country up. That is their main reason for being. At the same time they do a decent job of representing the centre-left values of most Quebecois. Imagine if NY, Mich. and Mass. had a single government that was left-leaning and had seccession as it's ultimate goal. That's the BQ.

That's federal politics. The provincial/federal interactions are also much more complex than your federal government has with your states.

OK, where does states rights (or provincial rights) come in? Every state is pretty much allowed to make ALL of its own laws as long as they do not contradict a federal law. That is the reason Texas had the right to decide that gay marriage is not legal. Personally, I could care less - it really doesn't apply to me - but I do realize it matters to some.

Texas does have it own government in a manner of speaking. No other state has an identical set of laws. We also have the right to secede. However, we are not left leaning - although we used to be a Democratic state some years ago. Secede? Not us! We love our country and even our neighbors, as we proved when Louisiana got into a bit of hurricane trouble.

Does Ontario love Quebec? Does BC love Labrador? Is there a strong affinity among provinces?

Uncle
 
Reverend Blair
#11
Quote:

OK, where does states rights (or provincial rights) come in? Every state is pretty much allowed to make ALL of its own laws as long as they do not contradict a federal law.

Canada is more centralised than the US...the feds wield more power here. That's been diminishing over the past couple of decades and the result has been an increase in separatist sentiment, both in Quebec and Alberta (when you hear people speak of western separatism, what they really mean is Alberta separatism).

There are also some odd overlaps where Ottawa has laws and provides funding and the provinces have laws and provide funding. Health care is a good example of that. We have the Canada Health Act, which outlines what provinces can and cannot do. If they break the rules, they lose funding. We also have provincial laws and provinces that lose funding because they will not follow the federal rules then whine that they are being treated unfairly because they are not getting all of their funding. This is commonly known as "fed-bashing" and it's an easy way for a provincial government to get votes.

Another area of much contention is that Ottawa makes trade deals for our goods even though all natural resources belong to the provinces. This gets sticky because sometimes premiers (kind of like governors) forget which country they belong to or that there are rules.

Ralph Klein would crap his pants if an export duty was put on oil as part of the softwood lumber dispute for instance. The feds have every right to do so though. The result is a lot of confusing and contradictory rhetoric where both sides make illegitmate claims.

Quote:

That is the reason Texas had the right to decide that gay marriage is not legal. Personally, I could care less - it really doesn't apply to me - but I do realize it matters to some.

The SSM thing here shows a difference. Our gays and lesbians have a constitutional right to get married. The only way for a government, federal or provincial, to get around that is to invoke the notwithstanding clause, which is basically a way for the government to claim that the constitution does not apply in a specific case.

Ralph Klein (you'll notice that Alberta is a lot like a half-bright juvenille delinquent with too much spending money and an attitude problem...that has a lot to do with the Premier of Alberta being a half-bright delinquent with too much spending money and an attitude problem)...anyway...Ralph Klein yammered and sputtered about invoking notwithstanding to keep SSM out of Alberta (word is that he thought it was mandatory ), but in the end he backed down because notwithstanding has to reviewed every five years and everybody was pointing at Ralph and calling him a backwards hillbilly.

Quote:

Does Ontario love Quebec? Does BC love Labrador? Is there a strong affinity among provinces?

Yes and no. Conservatives tend to foster competition and discord among the provinces while Liberals and New Democrats try to bring the provinces more together.
 
unclepercy
Avatar
#12
Thank you, Rev, for taking the time to explain Canadian politics
to me. You understand that I am coming from a totally different mindset, and yes, ignorance. Not stupidity, though, I'd hope.

I listened to the people at the high-tech forum until I was blue in the face, and mostly they argued among themselves. I didn't learn a thing. What is grits? I see this in Canadian news article, and I have no idea what they are talking about. To me, it's a corn side dish served in the south.

Uncle
 
Reverend Blair
#13
Grits are the Liberals. Tories are the Conservatives. The nicknames come from long ago and neither party can really claim the terms as part of their true heritage, since both parties have drifted from what they stood for when those names meant something.

There are also factions within the larger groups. There's a kind of short-hand tht has developed to describe them too.

Harperites generally refers to neo-conservatives or followers of Stephen Harper. That term is used to differentiate them from those who came from the old Progressive Conservative Party. The federal Conservatives have very few members who aren't Harperites.

Martinites are those Liberals who are loyal to Paul Martin. They tend to be right-leaning for Liberals...close to your Democrats.

The other major camp within the Liberal party are the Chretienites. Chretien is out of politics, but his followers are still within the Liberal Party, although not in positions of power.

The battle between Chretien and Martin ran for over a decade and gives a lot of credence to claims that Martin didn't know anything about the sponsorship scandal. The dislike the two have for each other is palpable.

You may see references to these terms in the press, but mostly you'll see and hear them in discussions about politics online.
 
Karlin
Avatar
#14
As for politics, Canada has two [main]* parties, one or the other has allways had power. The difference between them came clearer with the Sponsorship scandal and the emergance of Harper as leader of one of these two parties, the CPC.

It isn't much [the difference betwwen them]. The way I see it, the Liberals takes/steals money from taxpayers and other government revenues , whereas the conservatives [CPC} get money from corporations [in trade for ...].

Here is a link to a story about Harper and corporations:

"If it's all about trust, beware of Harper"
[url]http://tinyurl.com/86od6http://<br /> <br /> <div class="...r a leader eh?
 
Reverend Blair
#15
It may be one-sided, Karlin, but it's also full of facts. Harper has worked very hard to keep corporate money in politics. He has worked hard to see that corporate influence within the Conservative and Liberal parties keeps flowing. He has supported keeping lobbying rules lax.

For him to do an about-face now is laughable and his entire party is forever tainted by Harper's past attempts.
 
Summer
#16
Wow... great thread, and very informative. I'm brand-new to the board, and welcome the chance to learn more about the ins and outs of Canadian politics. Thanks for humoring us folks from the U.S.
 
Reverend Blair
#17
Good to see a new face, Flower. The first thing you need to know about Canadian politics is that it is much more complicated than US politics. Not only do we have more parties, but there are factions within those those parties.

We've also got things like Question Period and press scrums. Very few of your politicians could get through either without breaking down in tears.

Imagine Bush and his cabinet facing a barrage of questions from the Democrats every day as part of their official duties. Now imagine them doing that, having a bad day, and then having to face 30 or 40 reporters yelling questions at them as they leave. If they sneak out the back, they get written up as cowards who are trying to hide something.

That's the everyday reality of Canadian politics.
 
Andem
Free Thinker
Avatar
#18
Quote:

Countrywide, the Liberals stand at 33 per cent support, just a few percentage points lower than the 36.7 per cent support they won in the last election.

Meanwhile the Conservatives hold 28 per cent support, roughly the same as the support level they had in the 2004 vote, the poll suggests.

According to a CTV Poll.. but another poll on CTV says:



"The Decima Research survey provided to The Canadian Press shows that the Conservatives have 30 per cent of national support while the Liberals hold 33 per cent."
 
Reverend Blair
#19
The seat projections are even more different, Andem. The CPC stands to lose seats along with the Liberals. The BQ and NDP will pick them up.

If an election were held today, there would be another within a year or eighteen months.

We really need to go to set election dates.
 
missile
Conservative
#20
That's one of the best things about the US Electoral System[along with an elected Senate]
 
Reverend Blair
#21
I don't think an elected senate is a good idea at all. It leads to deadlocks as often as not and completely unrelated riders end up being attached to bills in both houses as part of the horse-trading that results. It is also inherently undemocratic because it does not follow the one person/one vote ideal of democracy. The cost of elections is also a huge factor. By increasing the number of elections you encourage more involvement by special interests with cash while inducing voter-donation fatigue.

I'd like to see a Senate where the H of C votes for candidates the provinces put forth...say three candidates for each seat. Have them do it in the summer when the House isn't usually sitting. Give all of the provinces and territories an equal number of seats, give the Senate more power, but not enough to kill legislation. If a province wants to run an election to select candidates, let them but it comes out of their pockets, not the national purse.

Failing that, just abolish the damned thing and be done with it. That's likely what will happen eventually anyway.

I used to be against set election dates as well, because they tend to induce a kind of permanent election campaign. We already have a permanent campaign though, so we might as well make it official.

I'd say one election every five years with some form proportional representation and then worry about the Senate though.
 
no1important
#22
Ipso has it 34- 28 for libs.

I think though with the way seats are distributed libs will lose 5 in Quebec and maybe 2 or 3 in BC. But they could pick up more if the cons lose too many in Ontario.

The Ndp should pick up a few in Ontario and BC as well. My riding will be tight between Liberal and NDP candidate as Grewal is a dead horse. Hopefully his wife will lose as well. Cadmans old riding is a toss up between NDP, LIBs and if his daughter runs as independant.

It seems the closer we get to the actual voting day the libs tend to go up a bit when people actually have to cast a ballot. They hold their noses and vote Liberal. I wish those people would have the courage to vote NDP though.

Do you think Rev, that the Conservatives will hold all the Ontario seats they won last time? I think they will lose 5 and maybe even up to 12 but more would not surprise me either.
 
Summer
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

Good to see a new face, Flower. The first thing you need to know about Canadian politics is that it is much more complicated than US politics. Not only do we have more parties, but there are factions within those those parties.

Oh yes, that much I knew already. We do get some factioning in our own parties, but it's mostly minor. I actually prefer a system that has more than two parties with enough oomph to actually influence the picture... we're pretty much locked into what looks like a permanent 2-party system here and quite frankly, those two parties become more and more similar in many areas as time goes on. Not a good situation to have.

Quote:

We've also got things like Question Period and press scrums. Very few of your politicians could get through either without breaking down in tears.

I've never seen Canada's Question Period, but I occasionally watch Britain's, as they run it weekly on C-SPAN here in the States. I truly love the idea of that, as it gives the ordinary person a bit of a look into what is going on. Naturally, our overly-scripted, "treat everything as sound-bite fodder" government would never go for that. Ugh. I don't know whether they'd be more likely to break down in tears or in uncontrollable invective, though. Our current President would probably become (more) unintelligible and just decide to have everyone carted off by the Secret Service.

Quote:

Imagine Bush and his cabinet facing a barrage of questions from the Democrats every day as part of their official duties.

*big grin*

Quote:

Now imagine them doing that, having a bad day, and then having to face 30 or 40 reporters yelling questions at them as they leave.

*even BIGGER grin*

Quote:

If they sneak out the back, they get written up as cowards who are trying to hide something.

heheh... those of us who are not Republicans already figure them for cowards, but confirmation's always nice.

Quote:

That's the everyday reality of Canadian politics.

Beats the heck out of what we've got, that's for sure.

For the record, I'm independent... not a member of any political party. Can't stand the Repubs, like the Democrats more but don't trust either one. Frankly, none of our various "alternative" parties here really float my boat, either. Politicalcompass.org pegs me as a "left libertarian" and there doesn't seem to be much real estate on the U.S. political landscape for us.

Cheers,
Summer
 
Reverend Blair
#24
Quote:

I think though with the way seats are distributed libs will lose 5 in Quebec and maybe 2 or 3 in BC. But they could pick up more if the cons lose too many in Ontario.

Every seat projection I've seen show the the Liberals losing a lot, the CPC losing a little, and the NDP and BQ picking up seats. The trend there is that the Liberals lose less with every poll and the CPC lose more. The NDP are doing really well in the projections, doubling their vote in some, because the anti-Harper vote that elects Liberals (and a fair number of Harperites) never shows up in the polls...it's always a last minute rush.

If I had to place a bet on final seat counts this morning, it would be BQ 65, NDP 30, CPC 95, and the rest going to the Liberals. I'm tempted to give the BQ a couple more and take another 5 away from the Conservatives, but I won't. Those numbers likely will have changed by the time time Parliament rises later today though. An election call always changes things.

Quote:

Do you think Rev, that the Conservatives will hold all the Ontario seats they won last time? I think they will lose 5 and maybe even up to 12 but more would not surprise me either.

I think they'll lose some they hold in Ontario, lose a few on the Prairies and in BC, pick up two in Alberta, and get some Ontario ridings they don't presently hold. They will have fewer seats coming out of this election than going in.
 
Reverend Blair
#25
Quote:

I've never seen Canada's Question Period, but I occasionally watch Britain's, as they run it weekly on C-SPAN here in the States.

Britain's politicians tend to be a little more cutting with their remarks, but it's the same basic thing.

Quote:

Naturally, our overly-scripted, "treat everything as sound-bite fodder" government would never go for that. Ugh. I don't know whether they'd be more likely to break down in tears or in uncontrollable invective, though.

We have rules about that. One of our Prime Ministers actually had to claim that he said "fuddle duddle" once because he muttered the f-word under his breath.

Quote:

For the record, I'm independent... not a member of any political party.

That's another difference. Here you don't have to name an allegiance when you register to vote. Some of us belong to parties and some people vote the same every time, but nobody asks when you register.

Quote:

. Can't stand the Repubs, like the Democrats more but don't trust either one. Frankly, none of our various "alternative" parties here really float my boat, either.

I've always liked Nader for president even though he got the dangerous convertibles I love so much made into dreck-mobiles. I think Chomsky should run at least once. I think the most disgusted I've ever been with your political process was the debate where Bush and Gore were dressed like twins and kept saying, "I agree with my opponent." What the hell was that all about?

Quote:

Politicalcompass.org pegs me as a "left libertarian" and there doesn't seem to be much real estate on the U.S. political landscape for us.

That would have you voting NDP or CAP up here, most likely. We have a thread around here someplace where everybody posted their Political Compass scores, by the way.
 
Summer
#26
Quote:

That's another difference. Here you don't have to name an allegiance when you register to vote. Some of us belong to parties and some people vote the same every time, but nobody asks when you register.

Actually, that's not a difference, because it's the same way here. The only time it matters is if you want to vote in a primary election, because each party runs its own primary and these are limited solely to members of that particular party. But you don't have to declare a party allegiance in order to register as a voter - if that were the case, independents such as myself would never vote, and I definitely vote.

Quote:

I've always liked Nader for president even though he got the dangerous convertibles I love so much made into dreck-mobiles.

Heh. There are things I like about Nader and things I dislike. He's widely regarded as a bit of a loose cannon, but no one can deny that - for good or ill - he's influenced elections.

Quote:

I think Chomsky should run at least once.

Good grief, that WOULD be interesting to watch.

Quote:

I think the most disgusted I've ever been with your political process was the debate where Bush and Gore were dressed like twins and kept saying, "I agree with my opponent." What the hell was that all about?

I wish that was the most disgusted I were, but then again I've had to live with the results of the process (sigh). Frankly that debate was ridiculous. Of course, even more distasteful though for different reasons were the debates between Bush and Kerry in the 2004 campaign. They were a sham for the most part.

Quote:

That would have you voting NDP or CAP up here, most likely. We have a thread around here someplace where everybody posted their Political Compass scores, by the way.

I think I ran across that thread the other day, right before the server here appeared to seize up. I'll have to find it again and take another look. I've been sort of trying to figure out which Canadian party I'm most in line with philosophically.
 
no1important
#27
That Norman Specter the former Mulroney aid, actually said on radio that Liberals have been good to BC. Strange that he would say that.
 
unclepercy
Avatar
#28
OK, I am trying to do some reading on Canadian politics, and I don't understand this term: Toronto-Montreal-Bombardier politics.

What is that?

I saw it here:

--

Uncle
 
Reverend Blair
#29
Okay, first a caution about the Brandon Sun...it isn't a newspaper so much as a tool for political harrassment. It's like the Fox of small-town prairie newspapers. The story you referenced came off the CP wire though, so it's valid.

"Toronto-Montreal-Bombardier politics" isn't an actual political term, but it is a political situation. Bombardier is in Quebec. It's basically an aerospace company that started out making snowmobiles. It's a major employer though, and has a lot of political clout. Traditionally our government subsidises Bombardier both directly, which pisses the Brazilians off because they do the same thing, and through giving Bombardier every government contract that comes along.

Aerospace companies in Toronto (and Winnipeg for that matter), that are mostly foreign-owned, get pissed off because they miss out on the juicy government contracts.

That leaves the feds (and this happens with both Conservative and Liberal governments) trying to do a balancing act when contracts are being talked about around election time.

It's basically our version of pork-barreling, but the Quebec situation has made it a lot more volatile.
 
Nascar_James
#30
If you notice Rev, Bombardier is based in Montreal and the Federal Transport minister is Jean LaPierre, a Separatist. It's only normal that he plays favorites with a Quebec based company. Once a Separatist, always a Separatist ... you know it's true, so don't deny it. What was the federal aid for Bombardier? Almost $1 billion, right?

The Brazlians do indeed subsidize Embraer, their Business Jet equivalent of Bombardier. They do it fair and square, no separatists there. Kidnappers yes, but no separatists.
 

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