Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Karlin

#1Nov 1st, 2005

The Gomery report says that PM Chretien knew what was going on , but Martin did not. "That PM, not this one"

Furthermore, it says the Liberal Party was the beneficiary of much of the Sponsorship money. Direct kickbacks to the Liberal Party for use in an election is electioneering fraud... eh?

Lots of individuals got "Spons money". They should go to jail I think. I know I would if I was caught defrauding a federal program.

Chretien headed the program, and had Pelletier adminsiter that spending. Both should go to jail...Saving federalism is NOT enough to justify this money distribution -Chretien was hinting at that defense last spring. To me, he is just common criminal now... [and was an uncommon one when in power!!]

Do we believe that PM PM Martin is innocent? I am not sure, likely not, but Gomery has given him a clean slate as predicted months ago by this poster. After all, it was PM Martin who hired Gomery!!

Karlin

bevvyd

RE: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

I hear Jean baby is upset and thinks this report is biased and unfair. As for Pauly, there's not too much one can do when the #1 boss is calling the shots, plus how intertwined would a Finance Minister be in the day to day handling of the entire government budget, programs, et al. I think his story and the findings are pretty much one and the same.

no1important

RE: Gomery nails Chretien

Nov 1st, 2005

double post.

no1important

RE: Gomery nails Chretien

Nov 1st, 2005

Well the sad part is Canadians as usual will forget about this come election as people will elect Liberals out of fear of the Conservatives. The libs are at 40% now and will get either a large miniority or small majority. Their numbers may take a dip for a week or 2 but in 4-6 weeks they will be back up.

pastafarian

Re: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

Quote:

Well the sad part is Canadians as usual will forget about this come election as people will elect Liberals out of fear of the Conservatives. The libs are at 40% now and will get either a large miniority or small majority. Their numbers may take a dip for a week or 2 but in 4-6 weeks they will be back up.

Yeah, and I've been known to say that the American electorate is the stupidest in the world...

Reverend Blair

RE: Gomery nails Chretien

Nov 1st, 2005

A lot of people feel they don't have a choice though...it's either the corrupt and non-progressive Liberals or the corrupt and regressive Conservatives. Some choice, especially since it looks a lot like Chuck Guite learned to run this scam when Mulroney was in office.

I wish people would look at the other parties. There are one or more to choose from to match your political leanings, no matter what those leanings are.

manda

RE: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

All right, every-body put my name on your ballots and vote for me!

but seriously, Gomery has a good head on his shoulders. He was right to nail the fromer pm to the wall not this one. As financial minister at the time he was responsible for dispersing funds, not minitoring until the reports came back to him. Yes he could have been more vigilante, but we could all stand to handle our lives with a little more care. We just don't get hauled into the national spotlight over our own bank accounts.

I don't believe that trashing him is worthwhile over this matter. There are bigger fish to fry

MMMike

Re: RE: Gomery nails Chretien

Nov 1st, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by no1important

Well the sad part is Canadians as usual will forget about this come election as people will elect Liberals out of fear of the Conservatives. The libs are at 40% now and will get either a large miniority or small majority. Their numbers may take a dip for a week or 2 but in 4-6 weeks they will be back up.

And the clear message to the Liberals is: we don't care about corruption. Do you really think that anything will change? Their ballyhooed 'ethics' package concentrates mostly on civil servants, not the politicians that direct them. For things to change there has to be clear political repercussions for corruption. These bums have to sit a few out - they will purge their most corrupt members and come back a better party.

Andygal

RE: Gomery nails Chretien

Nov 1st, 2005

You and I agree on what needs to be done Miiike. If not who should be in power after we boot the Liberals.

Any party that stays in power to long will become corrupt. Of course some parties (*cough*Harperservatives*cough* are inherently corrupt but that's another story. They must be kicked out every so often and made to go through the wash for a while to clean up the corruption.

Karlin

#10

Re: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

The Sponsorship fiasco indicates a general tendancy towards fudging results. Liberals willing to spend for results are not concerned with the actual opinions of Quebecors on the separation question, they just want the result they want - stay in Canada.

This begs the question of vote tampering in both the Quebec Referandum and the last two Federal Elections.

I think it is "highly likely" that there was a rigging of results for the Quebec Referandum. Too much was at stake, and the 50.1% NO vote looks suspicious in itself, Chretien demanding "just enough rigging to get over the line, don't risk any more than that"

Gomery doesn't have to go that far though. The 2nd report will have recomendations in it - will he say Chretien should face criminal charges?

PoisonPete2

#11

RE: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

jail terms are needed if just to lift this malaise that all politicians are corrupt and nothing can be done. Maximum sentence for political fraud is 5 years (less then fraud by anyone else), but it would be better to put them away and let a lot of people out whose major fault was not having sufficient funds to afford a lawyer.

Reverend Blair

#12

Re: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

Quote:

And the clear message to the Liberals is: we don't care about corruption. Do you really think that anything will change? Their ballyhooed 'ethics' package concentrates mostly on civil servants, not the politicians that direct them. For things to change there has to be clear political repercussions for corruption. These bums have to sit a few out - they will purge their most corrupt members and come back a better party.

What is Harper's alternative ethics package? Other than protecting corporations from whistle-blowers, I mean.

It isn't that people don't care about he corruption MMMikey, it's that they feel they have no choice. They have, by most reasonable accounts, already purged those responsible for this scandal and this corruption.

Most people who have been following politics throughout the reign of the Liberals undestand that purge had little to do with corruption and much to do with political infighting, but Martin himself has been exonerated (Gomery's word, not mine) and just gave a bitch of an effeective speech listing all that he's done about this and what he's still doing. You can bet that will go a long way during the next election.

The Conservatives have been posturing a lot, saying things that don't make a lot of sense in the context of the report, and looking like all they care about is partisan attacks for cheap political points. The chances of a Christmas election are looming a little larger, and that's never good for the party that pushes for the election.

The Liberals, who should be skulking away like errant puppies, are winning the political battle already and the report has only been out for a few hours. If Harper was a better politician, I'd be disgusted at that, but he's so ****ing inept I expected no better from him.

A message needs to be sent during the next election, but it shouldn't be sent to the Liberals alone. It should be sent, loud and clear, to the government and the official opposition. Even if you accept that Martin has been exonerated, he's still incompetent. Harper is even less competent.

There's plenty of choices out there. Why would we vote for either of these parties?

#juan

No Party Affiliation

#13

Re: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

When we think about how Martin handled the investigation, he did everything by the book. The first thing he did was call the RCMP in to investigate and fired a cabinet minister. Some people are in jail for their part in this scandal because of the efforts of Martin. If Martin was involved, why has someone not come forward and said he was involved to save their own ass. I think Gomery's report will swing those undecided voters over to Martins camp. Two things I would like to see is a stronger showing by the NDP, and a small Liberal majority

I wouls also like to see the PCs elect a credible leader with a clear platform and get rid of the worst of the Reform red necks that are also dragging the party down. THe country needs a credible opposition party and an alternate government that the PCs have not been providing.

Reverend Blair

#14

Re: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

Quote:

I think Gomery's report will swing those undecided voters over to Martins camp. Two things I would like to see is a stronger showing by the NDP, and a small Liberal majority

I wouls also like to see the PCs elect a credible leader with a clear platform and get rid of the worst of the Reform red necks that are also dragging the party down. THe country needs a credible opposition party and an alternate government that the PCs have not been providing.

Martin will lose a few more seats in Quebec and likely the two he has in Alberta. The Conservatives will lose some to the Liberals and NDP in BC, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario. The BQ will pick up everything the Liberals lose in the end.

If the Conservatives don't smarten the hell up and start focusing on policy, and that includes policy to deal with corruption, they could lose enough seats that we're looking at a BQ opposition again. While I find that relatively funny, I don't think it's terribly good for the country.

Ocean Breeze

Free Thinker

#15

Re: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

interesting. Scandals etc... seem to be part of the political game these days. And people should be held accountable. No question about that one.

Jean may have had his issues.........but I will always be darned grateful he said NO to bush about Iraq. Money is one thing.....but living human beings are another. It is with horror that one imagines the situation-- if he had gone along with the psychopathic lier to the south of us.

Andygal

#16

RE: Gomery nails Chretien

Nov 1st, 2005

I agree with you there Ocean. Whatever JC did wrong at least he kept us out of THAT cesspit. I can't imagine what trouble we'd be in if he hadn't.

Ocean Breeze

Free Thinker

#17

Re: RE: Gomery nails Chretien

Nov 1st, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by Andygal

I agree with you there Ocean. Whatever JC did wrong at least he kept us out of THAT cesspit. I can't imagine what trouble we'd be in if he hadn't.

for sure. everytime I hear anything about the mess in Iraq....( which is more often than one would like

........I breath a sigh of relief. We could be up to our eyeballs in this cesspit and no way out. And another crappy entanglement with the bush fanatics. Who the heck needs that ??? Seems many nations ....even those that bought into the bush crap..... have a quiet respect for CA....due to the fact JC did stand up to the usr..

"We" can deal with these other issues and suspect we will.....but no one was killed in this tomfoolery.

Jo Canadian

#18

Re: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

#juan

No Party Affiliation

#19

Re: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

Quote:

Ocean Breeze wrote: Jean may have had his issues.........but I will always be darned grateful he said NO to bush about Iraq. Money is one thing.....but living human beings are another. It is with horror that one imagines the situation-- if he had gone along with the psychopathic lier to the south of us.

I certainly go along with that. We would have had at least two hundred dead by now, and God knows how many injured. Men killed and injured for oil companies? Nothing can make that equitable except in Georgie's little brain.

damngrumpy

No Party Affiliation

#20

Re: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

In the West it is a scandal, hell everything out here is a scandal since the news became entertaiment instead of information.
In central Canada most don't care, in the east it is the way political business is conducted and in Quebec, well the sin is they got caught.
Who will benefit from all this? The Liberals and maybe a bit for the NDP.
Harper looks like a cry baby, Harpers harping on this has filled the electorate with the who cares attitude. You see the Liberals are not considered a threat to the way things are done. On the other hand the Tories want to change things. Canadians don't want change. They are so conservative, about not changing things, the only way to prevent change, is to vote LIBERAL.
Unfortunately for Harper, the Liberals and the NDP will take almost all of Atlantic Canada, the Bloc gets Quebec, the Liberals and NDP much of Ontario, so what about the west?
Manitoba will elect Liberals and NDP, Saskatchewan will see the NDP hold its seats but the Liberals may take one or even two from the Conservatives. Alberta doesn't understand anything but the Tories. BC stands to be a real battleground this time and the results may well prove to be closer than you think. The Tories could lose more ground in this region of the country.
It all comes down to this Liberals gain, NDP gain, Bloc gains.
Tories, they get to have a leadership convention, contemplate why no one supports them and they promise us a new start and some real change, that should keep them in opposition for another century.

meitme

#21

Re: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

something iteresting is they say there was 100 million dollars badly spent in the sponsorship scandal. and as i remember it cost around 100 million dollars for the gomery inquiry. so looking at that it is interesting TAXPAYERS PAY JUST AS MUCH FOR THE INQUIRY.

remember no matter hom much the gomery asks for martin has to grant it so it is not his falt(i am talking politcaly he has too).

the reason i think the liberals are the people to vote for is what the concervative may do. harper does belive in private health care. if he thinks he can do it politcaly he will and nobdy wants that. also harper nobody notices did say he wanted to go in iraq. also he says he wan't the lowest tax rate in the world. think about that. there is 2 ways of getting that done. doing things like cutting all services like health care(*cough* private health care *cough). the other is bringing up the debt like bush did.

actualy harper has about the same belifs as bush. the quetion is if he will have the power to do what he wants because the canadians don't want him to do it.

a great thing about martin is he will do whatever he thinks is politcally best. this means he will not do anything too stupid no matter what. many people say he has the survival skills of a rat etc... I think this is good he will always do something he thinks canadians want.

Reverend Blair

#22

Re: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

Quote:

the reason i think the liberals are the people to vote for is what the concervative may do

So why vote Liberal? There are many other choices, not just Conservatives and Liberals. On this board we have a candidate for the Green Party and at least a couple of CAP supporters. The NDP are an option. So are parties like the Progressive Canadians and the Cosmopolitan Party. Surely there is an option other than Liberal or Conservative in your riding.

damngrumpy

No Party Affiliation

#23

Re: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

Withing a week no one will care about what happened, they just don't like the Conservatives. We don't want private health care, we don't want to saddle up and ride with Bush, and we don't like the social conservative agenda being manipulated by the evangelical christian movement internationally.
The biggest factor is most canadians don't give a damn about the sponsorship scandle anymore its old news. Martin made a great move the enquirery has bored everyone to tears, and Harper has lost his edge. The smart thing would be to let Harper crowd win and force an election for December 27th. If that happened there would be enough room to hold a conservative convention in a telephone booth.

meitme

#24

RE: Gomery nails Chretien

Nov 1st, 2005

ok look at this. I think the NDP are just liberals that call themself something else and steal votes from the liberals. the bloc are sepratists and i live in newfoundland not quebec. all other parties have never had a seat beofre. well the green party hasen't at least and they are the biggest one. so i don't vote for parties who don't have a chance.

also it is not a liberal problem(the sponsorship scandal) it is a democrtic problem. the pasfic scandal ,water gate... these were republican and concervative. actauly this happens all the time. it is more that hte liberals got caught.

so though the sponsorship scandal is something bad about the liberals it really is not that bad.

alex31

#25

RE: Gomery nails Chretien

Nov 1st, 2005

The NDP are not that bad but people who vote for the NDP are almost certanly voteing for the librals if there is no NDP.

Karlin

#26

Re: LOCK HIM UP - it was WRONG

Nov 1st, 2005

Quote:

In central Canada most don't care, in the east it is the way political business is conducted

That what JC is saying - he did some good things for Canada {-stayed out of Iraq, Kyoto, Quebec separatism, and balanced budgets] and whatever crimes he had to committ were worth it.

Is he saying it was worth it to the Canadian people too?
or just JC?

What JC is NOT saying is what I want to hear most from him:
"It was worth it to me, so I am prepared to go to jail for what I did".

But NOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooo... JC has to keep his little self from any repercussions. No "big man who can stand up to the consequences of his actions, just the little guy from shawinagan.

His ego could not take it if he was found guilty, I know these kind of people and they are disconnected in some ways like admitting doing wrong, just can't accept it, allways justified and justifying themselves.

lock him up i say, or it will encourage future leaders to do similiar crimes. This was not a good thing JC, it was WRONG even if it did save Canada . It was WRONG because it saved Canada by tactic and not heartfelt opinion - manipulators of people don't see the difference. Lock him up like a common criminal!!!

alex31

#27

RE: Gomery nails Chretien

Nov 1st, 2005

Also what is really weird is how some of the money from the sponsership scandal ment to keep Quebec in Canada went to the bloc the sepratists

Andygal

#28

Re: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

Quote:

ok look at this. I think the NDP are just liberals that call themself something else and steal votes from the liberals.

Uh no the NDP are completely different from the Liberals, have you een paying any attention, how you read the NDP platform, totally different from the Liberals.

The Liberals are centre-right, the NDP are leftist, the Conservatives are majorly right wing and the Bloc is also leftist not that I care cause I live in BC and I despise the seperatists.

meitme

#29

RE: Gomery nails Chretien

Nov 1st, 2005

ya i have to say alex i never understood that. i gess they figured out and people wanted to shut them up.

ok karlin. you say lock him up
1) who in there right mind says put me in jail. especialy when they have a strong case they never did it. the only evidene gomery has is that one person(something to note). also i am oing to brign up the micheal jackson case now. Micheal should not have gone to jail because there was not enough evidence against him(of corse he did not) . he may have done this I do not know. i do not care. it does not matter in court if someone did it or not it matters if you can prove it.
2) also he is not facing that he is facing normal fines
3) this is a common thing done and will contiue to happen. politics is a you scratch my back i will do it to you. for example compony's that donate money to the party get more influence in what happens this will never change
4)who are you asking to do this. nobody the courts decide that.

Ocean Breeze

Free Thinker

#30

Re: Gomery nails Chretien not Martin

Nov 1st, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by Andygal

Quote:
ok look at this. I think the NDP are just liberals that call themself something else and steal votes from the liberals.
Uh no the NDP are completely different from the Liberals, have you een paying any attention, how you read the NDP platform, totally different from the Liberals.

The Liberals are centre-right, the NDP are leftist, the Conservatives are majorly right wing and the Bloc is also leftist not that I care cause I live in BC and I despise the seperatists.

gotta tell ya..........I love your honesty.

anyhow........don't "we" all just love a good scandal.??? In politics that is a given.

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