Patriotism for Canada Day

[Aitrus]

On the day before the sea of red and white overtakes our city, I wonder what some of you think about patriotism or nationalism.

My own thought is a perplexing one - which is that nationalism cannot be anything but love of government. Thus if you disagree or dislike the party in power and its policies, it is not really possible to wave the flag and sing the anthem.

Also, our North American consumerist wasteful lifestyle is a leading cause of pollution in the world, and poverty in the developing world. Are we to celebrate this? Our suburban SUV's and our self-congratulatory kyoto signing?

Are we to keep pretending that we are a "moral authority" in the world when in fact we are a laughing stock? To continue to pontificate to those who act while we ourselves do nothing? Paul Martin will pose with Bono and talk about debt relief, but will he do anything to stem the causes of poverty in Africa? no. Should we celebrate anyways?

I haven't worn a maple leaf or waved a flag in a long time, because I don't have good answers to these questions that would let me be a true patriot. I have far too many reservations about the actions of my government and my country on the world stage to sing their praises and offer my blind support.

But I will go to parliament hill for the Sam Roberts concert anyways, because Sam Roberts is awesome.

 

[EagleSmack]

Interesting

 

[Reverend Blair]

You are buying into the opposite of the "my country right or wrong" jingoist mindset, Aitrus.

Canada does have a lot of problems. It is up to us to pressure the government to solve them.

Don't like Paul Martin's stance on meeting our aid goal? Send him a letter or e-mail, and make sure that you send a copy of it to your MP and to leaders of each of the opposition parties too. Sign a petition. Buy one of those beat poverty wrist bands. Join a political party or, if there are none you like, run as an independent or start a new party.

You've already started to act by posting your thoughts on a website, which is good. You can't just give up on your country because the government sucks though...some of us existed through two terms of Mulroney...you have to try to change things for the better.

There's a lot more to democracy than voting every once in a while and bitching about the government in between elections. The Live 8 concerts are a perfect example of that. They aren't there to raise money, they are there to raise awareness to put pressure on governments to adopt better policies.

 

[TenPenny]

Nationalism is not love for the party in power, it is a love for the country. You can love the country, and be annoyed at the present Government. You are too easily accepting the current mindset of the US - if you don't agree with Bush, you are unpatriotic, and should be in prison. (Which I have seen posted by what seemed like rational people).

There are times I am disgusted by the present (and, for that matter, past) Government. Same for the Opposition. But that does not diminish my love for this Country. We celebrate our ability to think and disagree with our government, and every 4-5 years or so, we get input on who our leaders will be.

I'm proud to be here. And be from here. And I'm proud to live in a country where we can carry on for 9 pages debating the merits of same sex marriages. And no, we don't all agree. But what would be the point if we never disagreed? Nothing would ever change, would it?

So put the damn flag in your window. And be glad that you live here. You could walk up to Paul Martin and tell him (in a rational tone) that you fundamentally disagreed with him, and the Secret Service wouldn't shoot you.

 

[Aitrus]

Oh its not just a question of me not liking the government. It's a matter of nationalism and patriotism being fundamentally about love of government.

Describe to me what "Canada" is. It is an arbitrary landmass in which there is actually no geographical difference between Southern Canada and the Northern US - for geography knows nothing of man-made "borders".

Canada, like all other countries, is only the policies and institutions created by our government.

Yet our government changes every few years, so to whom are we owing allegiance? The "idea" of Canada? What is that idea? Whose idea is it?

Can I be proud of my country without being proud of my government? Can I be proud of my country while being embarassed by its consumption habits and ignorance?

It is not that I would say country X or country Y are way better than Canada, it is simply that I don't know what "Canada" means if it does not mean the government of the country. Is it the people? If so I don't know 99.99% of them, but I do know that Canadians includes all the dicks, all the morons, and all the criminals in addition to the good people. Do I celebrate all of us for living in the same arbitrary land mass?

Perhaps more important still is the question of whether patriotism and nationalism actually do harm. You look at a lot of places in the world and see people killing and dying for nationalism. Is this a positive force? Shouldn't we commit ourselves to ideals rather than to government or geography?

 

[AirIntake]

The country and the government of it are not one and the same. The country can have different values and policies than the government, that's why governments make laws, to change the country to their views. But unless the government is perminant and unchanging like in a fascist dictatorship, they do not have the same values, and therefore the government and the country are not synonymous.

 

[Jay]

I'm loyal to the old Canada; the ideal of hard work pays off....The Canada that people like my grandfather created...not necessarily this socialist, whiny, welfare state the next generation produced. Things change though…and I will be having a bash at my house tomorrow to celebrate Canada.

 

[I think not]

There is a difference in nationalism and patritotism, sometimes it even becomes difficult to see any difference at all. It all depends where ones loyalty is. Both can be loyal to ones country, but the object of their affection differs.

Nationalism is loyal to a countrys institutions and its trappings while patriotism defines ones loyalty to a countrys principles and ideals. When times are good, you cannot distinguish the two, but when times become fiery, you see both carefully go in opposite directions.

I cannot speak for Canadians (obviously), but if I were to try and give an example of nationalism and patriotism I would can do so by the new vote that will on the Senate floor after Independance Day. Nationalists oppose flag burning because they love it and what to protect it, patriotism on the other hand supports flag burning because the flag represents American ideals and principles.

Fine line don't you think? Perhaps. But nonetheless, under no circumstances does nationalism or patriotism have any love for any government. Governments come and go. As long as your country remains based on the ideals on which they were founded, then you have every reason to love your country.

The current US administration is by no means representative of what the founding fathers had in mind ovewr 200 years ago, but the essence remains and neither Bush nor anyone else can take it away.

This is true for Canada, no single government can take away what the foundation of Canada is: A free country. There may be blips along the way, but the pursuit of democracy never ends, it is in fact a journey and not a destination.

Happy Canada Day up there

 

[Aitrus]

That's the question then, if Canada is not its government, what is it?

You can say "country" but what is a country? An arbitrary line drawn across geographical space. The only shared thing between me in Ottawa, someone in Toronto, someone in Yellowknife, and someone in Bathurst is our connection to the Canadian government, and our nationalist symbols (maple leaf, anthem, etc).

If you say the "old Canada" of hard-working entrepreneurs or farmers... aren't you really dedicated to an idea and not a country? Countries don't represent ideas anymore (if they ever really did), because in democracy the legislation swings from year to year and with a party like the liberals at the helm there is absolutely NO vision for the country.

Visions usually accompany imperialism, although they wouldn't have to. But unlike the USA, there is no sense that Canada is going somewhere in particular... no sense of us as a great social project or a people building an empire. What is our government's national vision? What is our national vision? What is the idea that Canada represents?

And who decides what that idea is - and if I disagree with it am I still a Canadian?

These the perplexities of nationalism.

 

[Jay]

Happy Canada Day up there

Thanks.

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: Patriotism for Canada Day

And who decides what that idea is - and if I disagree with it am I still a Canadian?

Being Canadian is something they can never take away from you...Thank God.

 

[TenPenny]

Typically, a country is a geographical area. In this area lives a number of people who typically will work together for the good of this group or society.

Generally speaking, this group will consist of people born in this geographic region, along with people who have chosen to live there (called "immigrants").

These people usually create a form of government, which helps provide a structure for this society, which will include the rules (laws), and such institutions as a defense program, and such societal programs as education, health care, whatever the society determines.

 

[TenPenny]

QTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Quarter To Five)....Time to head for a frothy ale.

To hell with defining our country. I'm going to have a cold TenPenny, and hug my two girls (Chinese imports).....and thank GOD it's a red/white flag I've got on my lawn.

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: Patriotism for Canada Day

QTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Quarter To Five)....Time to head for a frothy ale.

To hell with defining our country. I'm going to have a cold TenPenny, and hug my two girls (Chinese imports).....and thank GOD it's a red/white flag I've got on my lawn.

Have a Happy Canada Day!!

 

[Numure]

RE: Patriotism for Canada

Happay birthday to Canadians! I know how much fun it is when its the national birthday. Ours was the 24th, and it was a blast as always.

And at that, might I say, im not loyal to Canada. Or patriotic to it. I think most of you know where my loyalty and patriotism goes.

 

[missile]

I generally wear one of my Canada pins every day of the year and on all those rainy days,my red and white rainjacket

 

[Walrus]

There is a difference in nationalism and patritotism, sometimes it even becomes difficult to see any difference at all. It all depends where ones loyalty is. Both can be loyal to ones country, but the object of their affection differs.

Nationalism is loyal to a countrys institutions and its trappings while patriotism defines ones loyalty to a countrys principles and ideals. When times are good, you cannot distinguish the two, but when times become fiery, you see both carefully go in opposite directions.

I cannot speak for Canadians (obviously), but if I were to try and give an example of nationalism and patriotism I would can do so by the new vote that will on the Senate floor after Independance Day. Nationalists oppose flag burning because they love it and what to protect it, patriotism on the other hand supports flag burning because the flag represents American ideals and principles.

Fine line don't you think? Perhaps. But nonetheless, under no circumstances does nationalism or patriotism have any love for any government. Governments come and go. As long as your country remains based on the ideals on which they were founded, then you have every reason to love your country.

The current US administration is by no means representative of what the founding fathers had in mind ovewr 200 years ago, but the essence remains and neither Bush nor anyone else can take it away.

This is true for Canada, no single government can take away what the foundation of Canada is: A free country. There may be blips along the way, but the pursuit of democracy never ends, it is in fact a journey and not a destination.

Happy Canada Day up there

Thanks ITN. Your distinction between Patriotism and Nationalism hits the nail on the head - so to speak. I always appreciate an non-Canadian's point of view about Canada as it tends to be a little more objective than our own - I hope you appreciate our views of your country in the same light. :salute:

Oh, and Happy Independence Day on Monday

 

[I think not]

Thanks ITN. Your distinction between Patriotism and Nationalism hits the nail on the head - so to speak. I always appreciate an non-Canadian's point of view about Canada as it tends to be a little more objective than our own - I hope you appreciate our views of your country in the same light. :salute:

Oh, and Happy Independence Day on Monday

Why do you think I come to Canadian Content? Outside views are interesting to read. And thanks.

 

[GreenGreta]

Re: RE: Patriotism for Canada

Happay birthday to Canadians! I know how much fun it is when its the national birthday. Ours was the 24th, and it was a blast as always.

And at that, might I say, im not loyal to Canada. Or patriotic to it. I think most of you know where my loyalty and patriotism goes.

A national birthday is a for a Nation not a province. Canada's birthday is July 1. the nations holiday. Your nation did not celebrate on the 24th because you are NOT a nation. Nice try though, celebrate with the rest of us on the 1st because you are canadian and french. NOT JUST FRENCH. Happy Canada Day Numure.

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: Patriotism for Canada

Happay birthday to Canadians! I know how much fun it is when its the national birthday. Ours was the 24th, and it was a blast as always.

And at that, might I say, im not loyal to Canada. Or patriotic to it. I think most of you know where my loyalty and patriotism goes.

A national birthday is a for a Nation not a province. Canada's birthday is July 1. the nations holiday. Your nation did not celebrate on the 24th because you are NOT a nation. Nice try though, celebrate with the rest of us on the 1st because you are canadian and french. NOT JUST FRENCH. Happy Canada Day Numure.

We are a nation. Nation and country are quite different. Even your political leaders, Martin and HArper came here to say ''Happy Birthday' to all les Québécois'' on the 24th. It is part of life.

I still say happy Canada Day to you, and the rest of Canada. It just isnt our nations birthday.