Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

bluealberta

#1Jun 6th, 2005

There have been many allegations that the Mulroney government was more corrupt than the Liberals. Lets take a look at history from 1978 on to make a decision. The source is

http://www.cbc.ca/new/background/gro.../scandals.html

1. Francis Fox, Solicitor General for Trudeau forced to resign after getting an abortion for a woman with whom he had an affair, and forging a document using the womans husbands name. Fox was back in cabinet within two years, and served as Paul Martins principal secretary through most of 2004.

2. Tunagate. Conservative Fisheries Minister John Fraser overturned an inspectors report and released a million cans of STarkist tuna for sale to the public. The inspector said that the tuna was not fit for catfood. The plants owners had lobbied Fraser to release the cans, fearing the plant would be shut down if they could not be sold. The plant shut down anyway after the cans were released to the public. Fraser went on to become speaker of the house.

3. Robert Coates, conservative defence minister, stepped down after he visited a strip club in West Germany in 1985.

4. Conservative Communications Minister Marcel Masse left after an alleged violation of the Canada Elections Act. He was later exonerated of the charges.

5. Conservative minister Sinclair Stevens stepped down over allegations of conflict of interest related to a $2.6 millon dollar loan to a family company. Charges were dropped.

6. Conservative Andre Bissonette resigned while RCMP investigated alleged involvement in land speculation. Charges dropped.

7. Conservative Roch La Salle left cabinet after being charged with demanding a bribe and accepting money from businesses looking for government favours (Sound familiar??). Charges were dropped.

8. Conservative Michel Cote stepped down over conflict of interest allegations.

9. Bernard Valcourt stepped down as the result of an impaired driving offence.

10. Jean Charest stepped down after trying to talk to a judge about an ongoing case. Jean Charest is now premier of Quebec.

11. Conservative Allan Redway offered his resignation after being charged over joking about having a gun while boarding a plane in Ottawa. (Stupid no doubt, but grounds for resignation?)

12. Apec. Prime Minister Chretien pepper sprayed legitimate protestors lining the planned route of world leaders attending the APEC conference in Vancouver. Chretien joked: (For me, pepper, I put it on my plate". An inquiry determined that the RCMP had acted inappropriately.The inquiry also found that director of operations for the PM office, Jean Carle, played an improper role in giving instructions to the RCMP to use force, if necessary, to clear the motorcade route. Solicitor General Andy Scott resigned when he was overheard on an airplane flight telling a seatmate that RCMP Staff Sgt. Hugh Stewart would take the fall for the pepper spraying incident.

13. Airbus. In 1995 former PM Mulroney was alleged to have taken kickbacks from a European lobbyist. As a result, the Justice Dept sent a letter to the Swiss government, which became public, resulting in Mulroney suing the Liberal Federal Government for defamation. The suit was dropped two years later when the Liberal Federal Government paid $2million in legal costs and the Federal Liberal Government issued an apology to Mulroney. The RCMP finally ended the investigation in 2003 due to lack of evidence.

14. Billion Dollar Boondoggle. HRDC minister Jane Stewart did not resign even when an internal audit found that the Liberals under Chretien did not track employment program grants worth $1billion to make sure the money was spent properly and the jobs were actually created. At one time, the RCMP had launched 12 separate investigations into the HRDC files, three of them related to grants awarded in the Chretien's riding. Stewart did not run in the next election.

15. Shawinigate. Chretien sold his stake in a resort just before becoming prime minister (1993) and his shares in an adjoining golf course shortly after becoming PM. He was not paid for the golf course shares until 1999. The issue was when did Chretien stop having an interest in the property? Twice in 1996 Chretien contacted the presidend of the federal BDB of Canada about a loan being sought by the new owners, and in 1997 made another call to BDC about a smaller loan. He received his money in 1999. The ethics commissioner, who answered to the PM office, ruled he had done nothing wrong.

This is now the latest scandal list (not included in the CBC report):

Adscam. The process by which money was paid to Liberal friendly ad firms for non existent work in exchange for kickbacks to the federal liberal party. An inquiry into this by Justice John Gomery has just wound up, but testimony included allegations of money laundering type activities, no paper cash transactions, envelopes of money left on restaurant tables, hiring Liberal staffers at the same ad agencies for no work, threats of personal safety to some involved.

Other improprieties involve inducing opposition members to cross the floor in exchange for cabinet positions, a gun registry with an initial cost of $2million now at $2billion, secret hidden foundation accounts hiding billions of dollars from the Attorney General, and over deduction of EI contributions from employers and employees to the tune of $46 billion. There is also the issue of cancelling a helicopter contract costing Canadians millions of dollars, and still no helicopters. At least two Liberal officials or MP's have made public insulting and derogatory comments about the US and its government.

So who was worse? Regarding Mulroneys government, there were some improprities, no doubt. However, looking at the list, many resigned or stepped aside while investigations took place, some of which were dropped. One resigned due to attending a strip club. And not to down play the conviction, one stepped down due to an impaired driving charge.

The Liberals? Virtually every scandal involving the post 1993 Liberals have involved massive amounts of mismanaged, misappropriated, or outright stolen taxpayers money. A smear job against a former conservative PM failed, again at a cost to Canadians. And who has stepped aside during all this time? No one.

In my opinion, the Liberals win the Scandal playoffs in four straight. Hands down, they are the more corrupt and more scandalous party.

doug

RE: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Hmmm, CBC as a source. It must be correct then. Anything on how the dollar costs compare?

bluealberta

Re: RE: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by doug

Hmmm, CBC as a source. It must be correct then. Anything on how the dollar costs compare?

Actually, I really hesitated to use the CBC source, because I suspect I have the same thought of them as you do? No, did not add up the dollars. Hard to compare. For instance, how do you measure the Starkist plant shutting down in dollars? But even in that example, the plant was going to be shut down in any event, it appears. What Fraser did was wrong, though, no doubt.

mps

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

That article might be playing with stacked cards. It's pretty easy to use selective evidence to further one's point. While I don't feel the need to rummage around for evidence of conservative misdoings, I can accept full well that the Liberal party has their fair share of corruption. But to say that one party is more corrupt than the other seems a bit short sighted. It's politics. Corruption may as well be a synonym.

As an aside, party corruption isn't nearly as big an issue to me as party politics. It essentially boils down to how each party governs. In Ontario the conservatives don't exactly have a stellar record, but that's beside the point. The Liberal party may be plauged with corruption, but from what I've personally felt, that doesn't hurt citizens as much as poor party platforms.

bluealberta

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by mps

That article might be playing with stacked cards. It's pretty easy to use selective evidence to further one's point. While I don't feel the need to rummage around for evidence of conservative misdoings, I can accept full well that the Liberal party has their fair share of corruption. But to say that one party is more corrupt than the other seems a bit short sighted. It's politics. Corruption may as well be a synonym.

As an aside, party corruption isn't nearly as big an issue to me as party politics. It essentially boils down to how each party governs. In Ontario the conservatives don't exactly have a stellar record, but that's beside the point. The Liberal party may be plauged with corruption, but from what I've personally felt, that doesn't hurt citizens as much as poor party platforms.

So you don't really mind the Liberals using your tax money to fund their election campaign? The Liberals flip around on platforms so much, you never know what their policies are on an day to day basis. Why not let the conservatives in to see what their platform and policies actually do, instead of buying into the vague innuendoes about a non-existent hidden agenda. Read their policies, and tell me where they are wrong. But that is for another thread.

mattyaloo

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

The Libs have an insane lock on Ontario. Ontarians don't even realize it. I am from Alberta and when I engage in conversations with people in my company from Toronto, you'd swear they're regurgitating Liberal campaign ads: "I don't know, Stephen Harper scares me with his hidden agenda..." etc. I consistently hear people from Toronto repeating complete falsehoods and misrepresentations spoonfed to them by Liberal campaign tactics. Even the central Canadian media is in on the act: "Stephen Harper continued to be dogged by questions about his position on Abortion..." Dogged? By whom, you might ask? By the very same reporers who asked the question earlier in the day, so in other words, reporters reporting on reporters...that's a story? The you get the Ontarians eating it up: "I don't know, Harper hasn't been very clear on his position..." actually he was PRECISELY clear, but the reporters covering him decided to ask again the same question and "report" that he is continually "dogged" by questions of a hidden agenda...and on and on it goes...

mps

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Oh I take issue with Liberal corruption and fiscal misdeeds, it's just that I don't automatically denounce their party based solely on that. I go largely by how their party record stands in effect to the citizens.

Like I said, in Ontario the Conservatives don't have a stellar record. Sure they promised tax cuts, and they are responsible with money, but they also siphoned health care and education funds in order to live up to their word. So while they may be less corrupt in that sense, they also proved themselves much more harmful.

mattyaloo

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

OK then, what Lib policies are so much more desirable than conservative ones (federally)?

Vanni Fucci

Free Thinker

Re: RE: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by bluealberta

Quote: Originally Posted by doug
Hmmm, CBC as a source. It must be correct then. Anything on how the dollar costs compare?
Actually, I really hesitated to use the CBC source, because I suspect I have the same thought of them as you do? No, did not add up the dollars. Hard to compare. For instance, how do you measure the Starkist plant shutting down in dollars? But even in that example, the plant was going to be shut down in any event, it appears. What Fraser did was wrong, though, no doubt.

Better yet, how do you measure the cost in lives that could have been lost because of Conservative corruption regarding the release for sale of spoiled Starkist tuna...

That's what makes me puke about you and your ilk blue, everything has to amount to dollars and cents...how about people whose livelyhood was eliminated by the plant closing. By the way, I read that Starkist had a 39% marketshare before the scandal broke, which dropped to zero the day after...they pulled out of Canada soon thereafter...seems to me like Tunagate killed Starkist in Canada...

mps

#10

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Do you mean idealistically, or in action? If it's idealistically there really isn't much difference between the two party's, except one moves a slightly slower pace, and the other has more of an interest in appeasing citizens as opposed to companies. Though if it's in action, then it falls under what I already said before. The Conservative's have generally stood on a platform of adequate health care funding, but in action (in Ontario specifically) that wasn't the case. So again, action over ideals. Leaders can say whatever they want, but it's how they act that affects me personally.

mattyaloo

#11

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by mps

Do you mean idealistically, or in action? If it's idealistically there really isn't much difference between the two party's, except one moves a slightly slower pace, and the other has more of an interest in appeasing citizens as opposed to companies. Though if it's in action, then it falls under what I already said before. The Conservative's have generally stood on a platform of adequate health care funding, but in action (in Ontario specifically) that wasn't the case. So again, action over ideals. Leaders can say whatever they want, but it's how they act that affects me personally.

So to be clear, by company friendly I take it you mean the federal Libs right? And by appeasing citizens you mean the Conservatives I will assume.

I am Albertan so not too clear on ON politics, but federally you bring an interesting point. Like as in when Paul Martin last year campaigned up and down and sideways that he would fight private health care and save medicare. That's what he SAID. But what he DID as Finance minister through the '90s was virtually slash health care tansfers to provinces in half. And as far a private clinics go, his own doctor is in a private clinic in Quebec. There have been private clinics sprouting up from Vancouver to Montreal and in between on Paul Martin's watch. And last years "Health Care Fix For A Generation" turned out to be a one time cash hand out. So you tell me, can you see a difference between what Paul Martin says and what he does? Is he REALLY the saviour of health care in this country, or should we at least hand over the reins to someone who will level with us?

bluealberta

#12

Re: RE: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni Fucci

Quote: Originally Posted by bluealbertaQuote: Originally Posted by dougHmmm, CBC as a source. It must be correct then. Anything on how the dollar costs compare?Actually, I really hesitated to use the CBC source, because I suspect I have the same thought of them as you do? No, did not add up the dollars. Hard to compare. For instance, how do you measure the Starkist plant shutting down in dollars? But even in that example, the plant was going to be shut down in any event, it appears. What Fraser did was wrong, though, no doubt.Better yet, how do you measure the cost in lives that could have been lost because of Conservative corruption regarding the release for sale of spoiled Starkist tuna...
That's what makes me puke about you and your ilk blue, everything has to amount to dollars and cents...how about people whose livelyhood was eliminated by the plant closing. By the way, I read that Starkist had a 39% marketshare before the scandal broke, which dropped to zero the day after...they pulled out of Canada soon thereafter...seems to me like Tunagate killed Starkist in Canada...
Quote has been trimmed

Hey, Vanni, if you want to be fair on this forum, read the entire post before you puke, or go get a gravol or something. Geez your response was poor. MPS asked me about dollar cost, and I used that as an example of why it would be hard to calculate. The point was if the cans were on the market, the bad tuna would have resulted in the closure of the plant, just as the scandal did.

Vanni Fucci

Free Thinker

#13

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by mattyaloo

So to be clear, by company friendly I take it you mean the federal Libs right? And by appeasing citizens you mean the Conservatives I will assume.

In truth it's the other way around...but carry one...

Vanni Fucci

Free Thinker

#14

Re: RE: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by bluealberta

Hey, Vanni, if you want to be fair on this forum, read the entire post before you puke, or go get a gravol or something. Geez your response was poor. MPS asked me about dollar cost, and I used that as an example of why it would be hard to calculate. The point was if the cans were on the market, the bad tuna would have resulted in the closure of the plant, just as the scandal did.

Then your point was poorly made blue... :P

...and have I not been fair? I haven't banned you have I?

bluealberta

#15

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by mattyaloo

Quote: Originally Posted by mpsDo you mean idealistically, or in action? If it's idealistically there really isn't much difference between the two party's, except one moves a slightly slower pace, and the other has more of an interest in appeasing citizens as opposed to companies. Though if it's in action, then it falls under what I already said before. The Conservative's have generally stood on a platform of adequate health care funding, but in action (in Ontario specifically) that wasn't the case. So again, action over ideals. Leaders can say whatever they want, but it's how they act that affects me personally.So to be clear, by company friendly I take it you mean the federal Libs right? And by appeasing citizens you mean the Conservatives I will assume.
I am Albertan so not too clear on ON politics, but federally you bring an interesting point. Like as in when Paul Martin last year campaigned up and down and sideways that he would fight private health care and save medicare. That's what he SAID. But what he DID as Finance minister through the '90s was virtually slash health care tansfers to provinces in half. And as far a private clinics go, his own doctor is in a private clinic in Quebec. There have been private clinics sprouting up from Vancouver to Montreal and in between on Paul Martin's watch. And last years "Health...
Quote has been trimmed

Go even further back, Chretien promissed to rip up the GST and rip up NAFTA. Personally, I have no problem with either, so I was happy when he didn't, but it was another example of saying what he would DO and then DOING something else. He was going to end western alienation, instead it is probably higher than ever. So, MPS, we already know that Martin SAYS one thing and DOES another, so again I ask, why not consider the conservatives? This party has not been in power, and have a clean, no corruption slate.

bluealberta

#16

Re: RE: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni Fucci

Quote: Originally Posted by bluealberta
Hey, Vanni, if you want to be fair on this forum, read the entire post before you puke, or go get a gravol or something. Geez your response was poor. MPS asked me about dollar cost, and I used that as an example of why it would be hard to calculate. The point was if the cans were on the market, the bad tuna would have resulted in the closure of the plant, just as the scandal did.
Then your point was poorly made blue... :P

...and have I not been fair? I haven't banned you have I?

There was no point, I was responding to a question. Taking a comment totally out of context and twisting it around is something the left does very well.

mattyaloo

#17

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by bluealberta

Quote: Originally Posted by mattyalooQuote: Originally Posted by mpsDo you mean idealistically, or in action? If it's idealistically there really isn't much difference between the two party's, except one moves a slightly slower pace, and the other has more of an interest in appeasing citizens as opposed to companies. Though if it's in action, then it falls under what I already said before. The Conservative's have generally stood on a platform of adequate health care funding, but in action (in Ontario specifically) that wasn't the case. So again, action over ideals. Leaders can say whatever they want, but it's how they act that affects me personally.So to be clear, by company friendly I take it you mean the federal Libs right? And by appeasing citizens you mean the Conservatives I will assume.I am Albertan so not too clear on ON politics, but federally you bring an interesting point. Like as in when Paul Martin last year campaigned up and down and sideways that he would fight private health care and save medicare. That's what he SAID. But what he DID as Finance minister through the '90s was virtually slash health care tansfers to provinces in half. And as far a private clinics go, his own doctor is in a private clinic in Quebec. There have been private clinics sprouting up from Vancouver to Montreal and in between on Paul Martin's watch. And last years...
Quote has been trimmed

Hey bluealberta
I have a question for you as a fellow albertan. Did you know that if Alberta became a republic, the GDP of our country would be about $60,000 PER CAPITA? that means we'd all be getting checks in the mail JUST FOR BEING ALBERTAN. We would be an obscenely rich country, a la Kuwait or United Arab Emirates. We have the oil reserves of Suadi Arabia and the population of a small US city. So my question to you as a fellow albertan is:

What are we putting into this "confederation" called Canada, and more importantly, what are we getting out of it?

Have you considered separation?

mattyaloo

#18

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni Fucci

Quote: Originally Posted by mattyaloo
So to be clear, by company friendly I take it you mean the federal Libs right? And by appeasing citizens you mean the Conservatives I will assume.
In truth it's the other way around...but carry one...

Really now. Have you been watching the news? It's the Libs who have sewn up the support of major corp.s with their handouts. You are aware Paul Desmarais (Power Corp) his daughter is Married to Jean Chretien, and that Power Corp subsidiary "Canada Steamship Lines" appointed Paul Martin as President, and that Paul Martins entire private sector resume comes as a result of favorable appointments from Paul Desmarais of Power Corp?

Are you also aware that the Conservatives have as one of their top policy priorities to allow free votes accross the board in Parlaiment, so that MPs can vote on behalf of their constituents instead of being forced to tow the party line? And that private member bills will be encouraged so that Constituents will be able to initiate bills into parlaiment (indirectly though their MP) and that an elected senate is also a priority of the conservatives, which would only IMPROVE upon constituent representation in parlaiment.

After knowing this, if you still think the Libs are the "people's" party and the cons are the "Corporate" party, you must really be drinking the red koolaid.

Gordon J Torture

#19

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote:

Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Yup, what pisses me off is they actually pretend to care about social issues. At least Conservatives openly admit they don't give a ****. Honesty is a virtue after all.

mattyaloo

#20

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by Gordon J Torture

Quote:
Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government
Yup, what pisses me off is they actually pretend to care about social issues. At least Conservatives openly admit they don't give a ****. Honesty is a virtue after all.

What ARE you lefties drinkin' anyway? Let's just follow your logic. Stephen Harper and the conservatives actually don't want to make the country better. They want to make it worse. They want to make health care less accessible to everyone, and only allow rich people to get care. I am REALLY sure that's what's being discussed behind closed doors: "Gee Stephen, how the heck are we going to get into power and systematically destroy Canada's social programs?" "Umm, not sure yet Peter, but there's gotta be a way, this universal health care is REALLY pissing me off".

Bull. I AM a relatively conservative politico (relative to you commies out east), and I can honestly say that is not my agenda. My agenda is to explore the ideas being implimented in EVERY OTHER G7 nation (including socialist SWEDEN). ie, some variation of private provision of health care so that we are equipped to handle the upcoming explosion in demand cause by aging baby boomers. That is exactly what Ralph Klien is doing here in rational land (Alberta). We are reseraching the health care systems of France, UK, Sweden, Germany, New Zealand, Australia, Italy etc. to see what they are all doing and build a solution, the YES, MIGHT INVOLVE PRIVATE PROVISION. SO WHAT? what is the big sin if we all end up with better care?

I think not

#21

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by mattyaloo

SO WHAT? what is the big sin if we all end up with better care?

A few might get rich off of it.

Vanni Fucci

Free Thinker

#22

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by mattyaloo

Really now. Have you been watching the news? It's the Libs who have sewn up the support of major corp.s with their handouts. You are aware Paul Desmarais (Power Corp) his daughter is Married to Jean Chretien, and that Power Corp subsidiary "Canada Steamship Lines" appointed Paul Martin as President, and that Paul Martins entire private sector resume comes as a result of favorable appointments from Paul Desmarais of Power Corp?

Yes, I know the Libs pander to big business...but so too would the Cons...only to a greater extent...

Quote: Originally Posted by mattyaloo

Are you also aware that the Conservatives have as one of their top policy priorities to allow free votes accross the board in Parlaiment, so that MPs can vote on behalf of their constituents instead of being forced to tow the party line? And that private member bills will be encouraged so that Constituents will be able to initiate bills into parlaiment (indirectly though their MP) and that an elected senate is also a priority of the conservatives, which would only IMPROVE upon constituent representation in parlaiment.

You know, that the free vote blather was brought up to address the SSM issue...that way when they come off looking like a bunch of redneck bigots, they can say they were voting on behalf of their constituents...

Same with the private members bills...all devised to allow them to force their regressive social policy wrapped in the death shroud of democracy...

Who needs official party policy when they can make it up as they go along...

Quote:

Tuesday: We won't attempt to change the status quo on abortion legislation.

Wednesday: Conservative MP Cheryl Gallant introduces a private members bill to repeal abortion legislation.

Harper: Ooops...how'd that happen...damn renegade parlementarians...

Reverend Blair

#23

RE: Liberals are the Most

Jun 6th, 2005

So, Blue, you came up with four scandals during the Chretien Martin years. The HRDC thing wasn't really a matter of corruption either...just incompetence, but whatever. Francis Fox doesn't count unless you want us to go back to Diefenbaker.

You listed 12 for the Conservatives.

You are extremely critical when Liberals get off from their charges, but you consider the charges being dropped against Conservatives to be complete exoneration. You try to minimize the Conservative transgressions (oh it was just a strip club) without taking into account the times (it was during the Cold War, he may or may not have had sensitive papers with him, may have had a "liason" with a stripper, and was leaving himself open to blackmail).

Not to mention that you missed quite a few on both sides.

Nice try at spin buddy, but the Mulroney government was more corrupt than the Chretien/Martin governments. Go pick up a book called "On the Take".

Still, nobody here is claiming the Liberals are scandal free and I don't see anybody saying that we should all vote Liberal.

BTW, I hear your buddy Grumant is in trouble with Air Canada now too. Harper still hasn't got the balls to fire him. Do you have any idea how stupid you have to be to get in trouble with Air Canada? Thousands of people fly absolutely wasted every single day, and they don't get in trouble.

mattyaloo

#24

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni Fucci

Quote: Originally Posted by mattyalooReally now. Have you been watching the news? It's the Libs who have sewn up the support of major corp.s with their handouts. You are aware Paul Desmarais (Power Corp) his daughter is Married to Jean Chretien, and that Power Corp subsidiary "Canada Steamship Lines" appointed Paul Martin as President, and that Paul Martins entire private sector resume comes as a result of favorable appointments from Paul Desmarais of Power Corp?Yes, I know the Libs pander to big business...but so too would the Cons...only to a greater extent...
Quote: Originally Posted by mattyalooAre you also aware that the Conservatives have as one of their top policy priorities to allow free votes accross the board in Parlaiment, so that MPs can vote on behalf of their constituents instead of being forced to tow the party line? And that private member bills will be encouraged so that Constituents will be able to initiate bills into parlaiment (indirectly though their MP) and that an elected senate is also a priority of the conservatives, which would only IMPROVE upon constituent representation in parlaiment.You know, that the free vote blather was brought up to address the SSM issue...that way...
Quote has been trimmed

There is no Abortion legislation in this country. We are the only industrialized nation without a law on abortion. By the way, Paul Martin and Jean Chretien are both privately against abortion.

You lefties are so exclusive: You want the "status quo" on abortion. Well the status quo in this country is : abortion on demand, paid for by the public purse. In the larger spectrum of possible abortion laws in this country: ie. limited term aborions, some form of counselling for women prior to recieving an abortion,limits on the NUMBER of abortions one person can have for free, limits on the AMOUNT the public will pay for etc....in other words, I think everyone in the country is in favor of having LESS ABORTIONS. So along the spectrum of abortion law: ie one extreme is "abortion on demand" (what we have now) and the other extreme is "no abortions ever", there are all sorts of middle ground. So in the bigger picture, if you favor the status quo, you ARE the extremist. By Definition you are on ONE extreme of the spectrum. And you somehow find a way to label anyone else along different degree of the spectrum as "extreme" or "bigotted". THAT my dear is the ultimate of INTOLERANCE, which is a form of bigotry. Think about it, you abortion extremist.

mattyaloo

#25

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Who needs official party policy when they can make it up as they go along...

Quote:

Tuesday: We won't attempt to change the status quo on abortion legislation.

Wednesday: Conservative MP Cheryl Gallant introduces a private members bill to repeal abortion legislation.

Harper: Ooops...how'd that happen...damn renegade parlementarians...

[/quote]

OMIGOD?!!! You mean a system not a dictatorship of the PM and his 10 buddies? You mean a system where the other 294 MPs actually MATTER? GOOD GOSH WHAT WOULD WE DO WITH OURSELVES????
Really do you guys out east actually INDEPENDANTLY THINK, or do you simply memorize what Paul Martin tells you.

Reverend Blair

#26

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote:

There is no Abortion legislation in this country. We are the only industrialized nation without a law on abortion. By the way, Paul Martin and Jean Chretien are both privately against abortion.

So it appears that even with all of their faults, Martin and Chretien at least understand the importance of the separation between church and state.

Quote:

You lefties are so exclusive: You want the "status quo" on abortion. Well the status quo in this country is : abortion on demand, paid for by the public purse.

How the hell does giving everybody the same rights and and access make us exclusive? Your very argument show us to inclusive. We aren't excluding anybody at all.

mattyaloo

#27

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

Quote:
There is no Abortion legislation in this country. We are the only industrialized nation without a law on abortion. By the way, Paul Martin and Jean Chretien are both privately against abortion.
So it appears that even with all of their faults, Martin and Chretien at least understand the importance of the separation between church and state.

Quote:
You lefties are so exclusive: You want the "status quo" on abortion. Well the status quo in this country is : abortion on demand, paid for by the public purse.
How the hell does giving everybody the same rights and and access make us exclusive? Your very argument show us to inclusive. We aren't excluding anybody at all.

Vanni Fucci

Free Thinker

#28

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by mattyaloo

There is no Abortion legislation in this country. We are the only industrialized nation without a law on abortion. By the way, Paul Martin and Jean Chretien are both privately against abortion.

Yes I do know that, and I think it's a testament to their statesmanship that they are able to put their personal views aside to do what's right. Somehow I don't see Harper being that sensible...

Quote: Originally Posted by mattyaloo

You lefties are so exclusive: You want the "status quo" on abortion. Well the status quo in this country is : abortion on demand, paid for by the public purse. In the larger spectrum of possible abortion laws in this country: ie. limited term aborions, some form of counselling for women prior to recieving an abortion,limits on the NUMBER of abortions one person can have for free, limits on the AMOUNT the public will pay for etc....in other words, I think everyone in the country is in favor of having LESS ABORTIONS. So along the spectrum of abortion law: ie one extreme is "abortion on demand" (what we have now) and the other extreme is "no abortions ever", there are all sorts of middle ground. So in the bigger picture, if you favor the status quo, you ARE the extremist. By Definition you are on ONE extreme of the spectrum. And you somehow find a way to label anyone else along different degree of the spectrum as "extreme" or "bigotted". THAT my dear is the ultimate of INTOLERANCE, which is a form of bigotry. Think about it, you abortion extremist.

Easy with the extremist jibes, Matty, or you'll be finding your stay here a short one...

For my part, I'd rather that there weren't any abortions at all, but I know that ideal is far detached from reality, and so I believe it to be important to have abortions safe, clean, accessible, and infrequent...moreso than to deny them the right to have one at all, and force them into the alleys once again...

mattyaloo

#29

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

If Paul Martin and Chretien understand the importance of separation between church and state, then why do they spend taxpayer dollars printing messages on cigarette packages telling pregant women not to smoke because it harms the fetus?

mattyaloo

#30

Re: Liberals are the Most Corrupt Government

Jun 6th, 2005

Quote: Originally Posted by Vanni Fucci

Quote: Originally Posted by mattyalooThere is no Abortion legislation in this country. We are the only industrialized nation without a law on abortion. By the way, Paul Martin and Jean Chretien are both privately against abortion.Yes I do know that, and I think it's a testament to their statesmanship that they are able to put their personal views aside to do what's right. Somehow I don't see Harper being that sensible...
Quote: Originally Posted by mattyalooYou lefties are so exclusive: You want the "status quo" on abortion. Well the status quo in this country is : abortion on demand, paid for by the public purse. In the larger spectrum of possible abortion laws in this country: ie. limited term aborions, some form of counselling for women prior to recieving an abortion,limits on the NUMBER of abortions one person can have for free, limits on the AMOUNT the public will pay for etc....in other words, I think everyone in the country is in favor of having LESS ABORTIONS. So along the spectrum of abortion law: ie one extreme is "abortion on demand" (what we have now) and the other extreme is "no abortions ever", there are all sorts of middle ground. So in the bigger picture, if you favor the status quo, you ARE the...
Quote has been trimmed

That's your opinion, and mine by the way. However, I am not so presumptive as to force my opinion into the law of the land without allowing my fellow electorate to have their say. And I am certainly not one to put a muzzle on opinions that might differ from my own. That is the point here: the original point was that conservatives speak for the people and allowing MPs to introduce bills does exactly that. See the problem for you lefties is that you have a tough time letting anyone else have an opinion, and an even tougher time letting the people, instead of the all powerful centrally planned governmenet, make decisions for themselves.

I am a "gaurded" pro-choicer who respects the ideals of democracy, as are most conservatives. And I called you an extremist so that you might feel some empathy for people with differing opinions to your own who frequently get tarred and feathered in this country. Not very nice is it?

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