Stephen Harper Halted

S-Ranger

Nominee Member
Mar 12, 2005
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South Ontario, Toronto District
Harper Halted

May 21, 2005. 10:43 AM www.thestar.com

Harper Halted
Tory leader fails disastrously in his bid to defeat the Liberal government

All he did was bruise his already fractured party further, Thomas Walkom writes

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[Photograph of Harper in profile looking as though he's about to jump off the top of a building at night; grimly looking down at his fate with blankness in his tired eyes. Sorry, a picture is worth a thousand words but it's only available in the print edition with this caption under it.]

Conservative Leader Stephen Harper focused for several weeks on defeating the Liberal minority government. The only silver lining for him may be that he didn’t succeed, Thomas Walkom says.
--

For Conservative Leader Stephen Harper, the dramatic confidence vote in the Commons on Thursday was more than a defeat. It was a disaster.

Over the past three weeks, Harper has focused single-mindedly on bringing down the Liberals of Prime Minister Paul Martin and forcing an early election.

But in the end all he managed to do was bruise his already fractured party further, while at the same time reminding voters — particularly in Ontario — why so many mistrust him.

Ironically, the only silver lining for Harper may be that he didn't succeed. If Martin's government had been defeated in the Commons on Thursday, polls suggest the Conservatives might well have come second — again —in the ensuing election.

Somehow, Harper had manoeuvred himself into a classic double bind.

Six weeks ago, few could have predicted this. Then, both Harper and his Conservatives seemed on a roll.

They faced a government that seemed aimless and a prime minister who appeared weak.

Justice John Gomery's sponsorship inquiry in Quebec, with its daily diet of allegations against the Liberals, reminded voters why they were so desperately sick of a party that has been in government for 12 straight years.

Meanwhile, Harper was quietly and systematically working to fix the weaknesses that had derailed him in last year's election. [At the time, "Not enough PC votes" ... due to Harper, the Calgary reform-alliance, was the answer to that one and no kidding.]

Then, the Conservatives had been accused of having a secret agenda [actually Harper came right out and said it over two popular vote polls back to back, a couple of weeks before the election, that made him think he was going to end up with a majority dictatorship and he came right out and said that "finally" whatever this alleged singularity of "Western Canada" isn't, was going to get to "run the country" ... that's a good way not to get any votes east of Manitoba; other than the protest votes against the Ontario Liberal Party, with most Ontarians having no clue who/what a Stephen Harper even was or what "reform" or "canadian" alliance were ... Canadian huh? I mean, eh? :) And they hadn't held their first policy convention yet, and right out of Harper's mouth, the few numbers we could get out his spending agenda and tax cuts and trickle-down economics from that, because he was never clear about the tax cuts other than corporations, he would have run a $5+ billion deficit, even using the most liberal economic forecasts, which the "liberals" don't do: they base budgets on conservative economic forecasts. And it's not 'fear' it's common sense and no "liberal" had to tell me, or anyone I know, or anyone my wife knows, anything, and my wife is from Vancouver, which also didn't vote for him], in part because the party — created from the merger of the Canadian :lol: Alliance with the old [oooooooold and out of steam, wit, ideas, clues] Progressive Conservatives — had no coherent policy platform.

To meet that criticism, Harper held a policy convention in March. Unlike the Alliance and its predecessor, Reform, this convention did not produce a set of clear-cut, controversial positions. Rather, it resulted in a vague and anodyne document — much like the kinds of policy platforms the Liberals and the old Progressive Conservatives used to manufacture.

It was designed not to inspire but to soothe. [With what, lies? We're supposed to believe now that they've turned over a new leaf, when the only member they had from the Ontario section of the Windsor-Quebec City Corridor, former CEO of Magna International, which is worth hundreds of millions dollars more now, had to leave the "conservative" reform-alliance to be able to vote the way the majority of her electorate wanted her to, along with the majority of south Ontario, finally getting some our taxes trickled back?] With luck, the Conservatives hoped, it would help convince moderate voters, particularly in Ontario, that the Harper-led party was not made up of wild-eyed fanatics. [Which is BS media entertainment to sell ad space. It all came down to the new deal for cities, the new deal for Toronto in Toronto and the area to us, and Harper being against it and stating that everything needed more money. Of course everything needs more money, but set priorities that make some sense. Cities can generate more revenues faster than anything. Spreading money around leaves nothing with any money that's of any use. Focus on expanding the tax base and then the cities will be able to pay more for everything, to expand other economies/tax bases. But his support is rural, the real cities are big eastern cities aside from Vancouver (Lower Mainland-southern Vancouver Island region), which is a hard sell: the amount of money that Toronto (City of and the city-region not just the GTA) needs back out of its own taxes could buy a lot of votes elsewhere. But the GTA generates of 25% of the GDP of the Canadas: more than rest of Ontario, Quebec has just over 21%, B.C. just over 12%, Alberta just under 12% and then everything drops off the economic line graphs, bar/pie charts, whatever. Toronto (GTA) generates more revenues than any province in the country and it's not a province. So how is someone who's been dividing "Western Canada" from the rest, trying to make it a singularity united in hatred against "the east", supposed to convince anyone in "the east" now that he didn't mean what he said right before the last election, when he thought he was going to win a majority dictatorship? And what's "the east"? The Atlanic Canadas, north Ontario, north Quebec? Or maybe the Windsor-Quebec City Corridor with almost 60% of the population of the Canadas, paying out 70% of all federal revenues on average; which Harper leaves out. The christian evangelical "fundamentalist" who ran Manning's first disaster of an election campaign, came right out and said that his focus would be on "Western Canada" (which one?) from Stampede Town, is going to support Toronto, Montreal, south Ontario? He and the party he represents, the Stampede Town 'reformers', have been building up hatred against "Ontario" and "Quebec". But 93% of the population of Ontario lives on or south of the 401 (hwy), and other 400-series highways, which exist for a reason, other than Ottawa-Hull/Gatineau. And around economic analyses of Quebec, it's "Montreal and the rest" aside from what's considered to be part of Ontario's economy, a satellite market/economy of Ottawa-Hull. That the smaller portion of Hull happens to be in Quebec is irrelevant. Political lines don't exist on economic maps, when it's exactly how political structures should be laid out.]

Was abortion a problem? Harper promised that if elected, he would not introduce legislation to curb abortion rights. [And who believes it? Who believes anything that any politician says anymore? Just don't promise us a kick to the teeth. People will believe that from a party based in Stampede Town.]

Were the voters worried that the Conservatives might kill medicare? In April, Harper journeyed to Calgary to publicly tell medicare's sternest critics that national universal public health insurance in Canada is here to stay. [Talk the talk. Anyone can do that. The problem is whether he can walk the walk.]

Was he too wooden on stage? Harper worked on that, too. He told jokes. He was self-deprecating.

"I couldn't become an accountant," he would tell chuckling audiences. "I lacked the necessary charisma." [Not to mention basic math skills if anyone was supposed to believe his last non-platform, but what could be gotten out of him, would have resulted in anything close to a balanced budget even using the most liberal/best economic forecasts around.]

And he imposed discipline on his caucus. There was to be one line, one leader.

Conservative MPs, particularly those from the old Reform/Alliance wing, were told to abandon their practice of making controversial, off-the-cuff comments on matters like immigration. Everything was tightly scripted. [And that showed; reading scripts, acting, playing games, but so what?]

Even Harper's position on same-sex marriage was carefully thought out. Polls show that Canadians are split almost evenly on the question. By opposing same-sex marriage (while accepting same-sex civil unions), the Conservatives figured they had an issue that could effectively differentiate them from the Liberals in key ridings.

Yet, hidden in this newly disciplined party were the seeds of trouble.

Much has to do with Harper himself. He is not a natural politician. He does not suffer fools easily. Nor does he have much interest in people who do not interest him. [Nor does any closed-minded, intolerant person.]

As leader, he has surrounded himself with a coterie of like-minded advisers. But it is a tight circle that other Conservatives say they find near-impossible to penetrate.

"Good politicians are able to make everyone on the team seem valued, even people they hate," explains one well-connected Conservative. "Stephen doesn't have that knack." [And doesn't even know the basic rule of keeping your friends close and [perceived] enemies closer -- or they turn into real ones as Stronach did.]

In particular, party insiders say, Harper had little patience with the couple who by default had come to represent the Progressive [Conservative] wing of the new party — Nova Scotia MP Peter MacKay and Ontario's Belinda Stronach.

In political terms, neither is a towering figure. MacKay, the son of former Conservative MP Elmer MacKay, is best known for reneging on his promise not to merge the old Progressive Conservatives with Harper's Alliance. [We call him the most foolish traitor in Canadian history. And he will be tarred and feathered eventually. ;) If he hadn't screwed up and done that, every vote in Ontario, the protest votes against the Ontario Liberal Party, would have gone to the PC's. Had "Canadian Alliance" been on the ballot, no one would bothered with it. And the PC's would probably have picked up more seats, over "reluctance", to say the least, around Harper and his ship of religious fools, which wouldn't have survived another resounding defeat, let alone with more votes in B.C., Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Quebec threw a protest vote against their provincial liberals, the PC's would have picked up more votes there and in the Atlantic Canadas. The "old reformers" would have been washed up. Then the PC's would have attracted a new leader and there would be no "reform-alliance". Albertans would be the only people voting for it, while the Progressive Conservatives, with a new leader from the private sector, now that the party had a hope, coming up with solid platform as an alternative to the "liberals" who aren't exactly liked, would have been the party of choice. There's just no other choice to the "liberals": all thanks to the most stupid traitor in Canadian history: Peter MacKay, the Fool. The PC's wouldn't have won in the last election, they'd just be positioned to win in the next one: and not with Mackay or Stronach as the leader. But someone new, with lots of skills and ideas, and a successful career outside politics with no scandals in his or her history, to prove it. They could come up with the exact same platform as the "liberals" and still win, just because everyone is so sick of the "liberals".]

Without any background in politics [which is a good thing] or any coherent platform [which isn't a good thing -- that's the harper's job], Stronach, the daughter of industrialist Frank Stronach, decided two years ago that she wanted to become prime minister.

To make that happen, she won the backing of well-known Progressive Conservatives such as former Ontario premier Bill Davis and took on Harper — unsuccessfully, as it turned out — for the leadership of the newly merged party. [Another fatal blow. Had she won, the anti-east business and particularly south Ontario, would have been put to rest; but not the incoherent platform issues. Instead, even at their first policy convention the "new conservatives" tried to give more weight to representatives from the west. Same old same old.]

During that 2004 leadership campaign, Harper seemed to find it difficult to hide his disdain for Stronach. [And hence, south Ontario. It's how everyone sees it around here and it's nothing new at all. Maybe we should get an anti-west party going and see how many votes it picks up in the west. But we wouldn't have to sit around bitching and moaning about not getting votes in the west, because we'd win and too bad for the western Canadas. Has that happened? Of course not. But why shouldn't the hatred be returned? And all we need is the Windsor-Quebec City Corridor, not the rest of the Ontarios or Quebecs or Atlantic Canadas either -- for a majority dictatorship to represent ourselves and our own interests; particularly in the Ontario section. We're accused of it anyway, so why shouldn't we do it for real?]

Insiders say the relationship remained frosty even after she entered the Commons last year as the novice MP from Newmarket-Aurora. Neither Harper nor Stronach made matters easy.

[I need a [line] and
BBCode tag for this. Why haven't they at least come up with
...​
tags? The phpBB group are lazy programmers. :) And it's off the front page of the National Report section next to the article. This stuff is on page F4.]
---
`You may have lost tonight's battle,

but you've done it in order to

win the war'

Stephen Harper, speaking to his Conservative caucus
---

"Belinda was high-maintenance," says one Conservative. "She wanted to be stroked, consulted, included in everything." :shock:

Harper, however, rarely obliged. He was particularly irked when Stronach publicly criticized his decision to seek an early election. :shock:

MacKay, even though he is nominally deputy leader, was also left outside the charmed circle. [FOOL! I could have told you, you stupid moron. But he deserves what he gets; to be forgotten and to go back to Nova Scotia to work on his pappy's farm.]

His actions too, particularly his very public criticisms during the March policy convention, are said to have irritated the Conservative leader. :shock: [What doesn't irritate the harper?]

It didn't help that MacKay and Stronach were involved (or, to use her words from January, "We date. Omigod.").

When testimony about alleged Liberal kickbacks exploded at the Gomery inquiry last month, the Conservatives seemed united behind Harper [and his harping, wasting our time and money; he's not a lawyer, has no education in law and is certainly not Justice Gomery, who is not just a qualified lawyer; which is why he's called Justice as opposed to "Leader of the Official Opposition"].

But underneath, in both party and caucus, fissures were forming. They exploded into the open this week with Stronach's dramatic defection to the Liberals.

That defection gave Martin the crucial vote he needed to win Thursday's confidence vote.

But Conservatives say Stronach's action also unnerved many in her old party. Even some who saw her as a Conservative of convenience took her departure as indicative of how Harper and his clique viewed so-called Red Tories.

"It says to people that moderates [as opposed to being intolerant] aren't welcome," says one party member.

In hindsight, mistakes are always easy to spot. Still, the way in which Harper's Conservatives managed to transform the gold of Gomery into a lead weight around their own necks is quite a remarkable story of political miscalculation.

To Harper and his advisers, Gomery's hearings into the sponsorship scandal only confirmed what they had always believed [with no right to; innocent until proven guilty and not by opposition politicians whose sole job is try to discret and embarrass the government]: The Liberals were corrupt fiscally and morally. They had no right to govern.

For a good many voters in Ontario, the Atlantic provinces and British Columbia, however, the terrain looked slightly different.

To these voters, the Gomery revelations proved something they too had come to believe — that all politics (and particularly all Quebec politics) are corrupt.

If all politics are corrupt, then, in a curious way, Liberal culpability in the sponsorship scandal is mitigated.

The view among a good many Ontario voters could be expressed this way: If it hadn't been the Liberals, it would have been someone else. [As in, we're fed up with the whole rotten mess of insults to the words "structure" and "systems" in this mess -- starting with our local "represenatives" and the Ontario feds. No amount of banadages is going to fix anything.]

The upshot of this was that the sense of national outrage against the Liberals, which spiked in mid-April, was shortlived.

As Harper continued to rail against Liberal malfeasance, the mood in much of the country swung from sympathy for the Conservative position to irritation with Harper.

His vigour was interpreted as stridency — which reminded voters why they had been reluctant to vote for him a year earlier.

Harper argued (correctly, in my view [-- um the author of the article; my comments are in brackets[] not parenthesis]) that Martin's deals — with Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, the New Democrats, Ontario and Stronach — were desperate attempts to hold on to power.

But the more he [Harper] talked, the more suspicious the voters he needed became. Polls show that by the end, a good many voters thought it was Harper who was[/is now even more] desperate, not Martin.

The second great miscalculation Harper made was to announce that he no longer supported the Liberal budget.

On the face of it, this should have presented no problem. When the budget came down in February, it was treated by most of the public with a polite yawn.

But budgets determine how governments spend. And key interest groups were very much interested in the spending this budget promised.

The premiers of Newfoundland and Nova Scotia were desperate for the money laid out in the budget's Atlantic Accord. Big-city mayors wanted the aid [TAX RETURNS AND PITTANCES] promised them. The child-care lobby was anxious to make sure that a national daycare scheme was not derailed again.

When the Liberals turned to the New Democrats for support [vice versa, the NDP went to the "liberals" to jockey for position] and promised $4.6 billion more for universities and housing, this revised budget seemed even more attractive to many Canadians.

Harper tried to deal with all of this by promising to uphold any agreements with provincial governments that the Liberals had made. Criticisms continued.

So, at the last minute, he [The Reverend Harper, Mr. Dithers] reversed himself again and agreed to support the original Liberal budget — including the Atlantic Accord.

But by then, the damage had been done. For many voters, what was at stake on Thursday was a budget they now thought they rather liked.

Ironically, Harper had forced Martin to come up with something the Prime Minister had not been able to produce on his own — a coherent rationale for his government's existence.

Copyright Toronto Star Newspapers Limited. All rights reserved.​


Sorry for all of my comments in the article but I would have just pulled quotes out and posted the same anyway, which may have looked like I was trying to take things out of context.

And don't tell me ... (you know who you are :)), "it's too long to read." A newspaper article. Heaven forefend that links to real documentation, hundreds of pages, be posted to try to clear up some ignorance from certain people who just don't get it -- much like Harper.​
 

The Philosopher

Nominee Member
RE: Harper Halted

This article is dedicated to showing how Harper is like an Emperor of a faulty alliance. But remember that a party is not built on relativism. There are tones of Liberals who DISAGREE with the government but vote along them. The liberal in my riding disagrees with same-sex marriage and civil unions as well as disagrees with abortion and the new day care plan. But he says he will "toe the party line."

Of course you have to keep your representitives "well scripted." They can get elected in their ridings based on their beliefs but the beliefs of the ones that will get elected hurts the position of those that are contesting.

Imagine if an article came out tomorrow saying, "Newfoundland Liberal hates gay marriage and homosexuals." It would hurt the entire party. There is no hiding that liberals in journalism and in the party are trying to hurt Harper's party by prying on old and dogged prejudices.
 

Derry McKinney

Electoral Member
May 21, 2005
545
0
16
The Owl Farm
Re: Harper Halted

It's too long to read. :wink: :lol:

I find it interesting that Harper's flip-flopping on Kyoto was never mentioned. He was against it; then he was nominally for it because the agreement was already signed; then he was still for it, but mentioned only US-style non-Kyoto pollution initiatives in his speech.

That had to hurt him not with the environmentalists, who were never going to vote for him anyway, but with the people who were wavering and could have been convinced either way. It couldn't have helped with the business lobby that would choke us all for a few extra pennies either.

It's like Harper stood for even less than the Liberals all of a sudden. All he had left was SSM...which really doesn't matter because the courts have taken care of it and most people really don't care...and his insane urge to stand on the corner screaming, "Corruption," which leaves people wondering whether he's complaining about the Liberals or bragging about his own propensities.

I wonder why Harper got into the front end of politics at all. He did pretty well in the back rooms as a policy wonk, even he was, as Preston Manning said, a quitter. He was still drawing a regular cheque for blue-skying ideas that may or may not get used. That's a pretty decent gig.
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
2,004
0
36
Proud to be in Alberta
Re: Harper Halted

Derry McKinney said:
It's too long to read. :wink: :lol:

I find it interesting that Harper's flip-flopping on Kyoto was never mentioned. He was against it; then he was nominally for it because the agreement was already signed; then he was still for it, but mentioned only US-style non-Kyoto pollution initiatives in his speech.

That had to hurt him not with the environmentalists, who were never going to vote for him anyway, but with the people who were wavering and could have been convinced either way. It couldn't have helped with the business lobby that would choke us all for a few extra pennies either.

It's like Harper stood for even less than the Liberals all of a sudden. All he had left was SSM...which really doesn't matter because the courts have taken care of it and most people really don't care...and his insane urge to stand on the corner screaming, "Corruption," which leaves people wondering whether he's complaining about the Liberals or bragging about his own propensities.

I wonder why Harper got into the front end of politics at all. He did pretty well in the back rooms as a policy wonk, even he was, as Preston Manning said, a quitter. He was still drawing a regular cheque for blue-skying ideas that may or may not get used. That's a pretty decent gig.

Nice article, nice slant.

"And in this corner, we have "Used to be Honest Smilin Jack" your used car salesman teaming up with "Pretty Paul the Lyin Liberal" out to do battle with Honest Harper. Oh oh, look out, here comes Jack and Pauls nefarious manager, the Liberal Canadian Media to make sure that when Harper gets the advantage, outside interference by Media will guarantee the win. Not a pretty sight for the kids, but if you have to cheat to win, Paully, Smiley and Media are certainly not above bending the rules when they fight. It would be a ring a ding dong dandy if it were a fair fight, but we all know what the outcome will be when Media gets involved."
 

Jo Canadian

Council Member
Mar 15, 2005
2,488
1
38
PEI...for now
Re: Harper Halted

 

Derry McKinney

Electoral Member
May 21, 2005
545
0
16
The Owl Farm
RE: Harper Halted

Actually I was being sarcastic. It seemed silly to me that you aren't willing to discuss the problems caused by your leader's shortcomings. He is keeping you from getting the policies you want, after all.
 

The Philosopher

Nominee Member
RE: Harper Halted

Harper is building a party. He is not building an alliance. They tried to do that, it was called the Canadian Alliance and it failed. You know what it failed? Because they agreed on about five things, and only five things. On social issues they disagreed completely. On economic issues they disagreed completely. It was only on the military that they agreed upon and they disagreed on what the military needed exactly.

Alliances do not work. Ask the Italian government. They have formed over 100 alliances to form their government in the last 50 years. The average lifespan of an Italian government has been 8 months, not long. They thought that they could form an alliance against the Liberals. Not because they had similar interests but because they needed to stage a comeback. Joe Clark and Preston Manning were against forming a new party. All they wanted to do was mutually ally their two parties as the NDP and Liberals are doing now. Once they took power the plan was to split up responsibilities.

A party is necessary. They need to form a strong cohesive party. They may lose some voters in the West but they're not really worried about the West, they have it and will probably have it for another decade or so. Until key Reformers leave the party they will maintain it unchallenged. What is necessary is jumping into Ontario because most of the Liberals there are retiring.

They need to form a strong and cohesive party. No party was formed in a year. Expecting this to work out well in a year was too ambitious of Stephen Harper. It will take another decade before Conservatives are united under platform.

What the Conservatives DO need to do is either maintain their spot as the official opposition or form the government. They cannot lose their spot to the NDP or the Bloc (NDP support seems to be rising).
 

Derry McKinney

Electoral Member
May 21, 2005
545
0
16
The Owl Farm
RE: Harper Halted

The Canadian Reform Alliance Party was never an alliance with the PCs, Philosopher. It was, in fact, just a name change in an attempt to hide who these people really are.

The formation of the Conservative Party of Canada was not a coming together to make two similar parties into one either, it was a hostile takeover of the Progressive Conservative Party by the Canadian Reform Alliance Party.
It was, in the end, just another attempt by the radical right to hide who they are.

It hasn't worked. The person who was supposed to be their face of progressiveness got fed up and joined the Liberals, following the path of Brison and others. I've also heard, and we really won't know until there's an election, that the new Progressive Canadian Party is gaining a fair bit of support in Ontario.

As for coalitions not working...I always find it hilarious that Italy is always used as an example of that. Most democratic countries use some form of proportional representation not dissimilar from Italy and have coalitions all of the time, yet their governments are not unstable.
 

Derry McKinney

Electoral Member
May 21, 2005
545
0
16
The Owl Farm
Re: Harper Halted

Hey, how come none of you Conservatives that are oh so concerned with corruption and vote-buying never brought this up?

"I was responding to my constituents. Primarily, it was that they didn't feel they were prepared to go into an election," he told CTV reporter Roger Smith.

As for the timing of his decision, Cadman explained he made up his mind "about a half hour before I came to the House."

When asked about rumours he was offered by Conservatives an unopposed nomination in exchange for his vote on the budget bills, Cadman admitted they were true.

"The discussions did come up," he admitted on CTV's COUNTDOWN with Mike Duffy later Thursday night. "The talk did come up, yeah."

Cadman said he refused, however.

"That was the only offer on anything that I had from anybody," he added, rebuffing suggestions he made a deal to throw his support behind the Liberals.

"There were no offers on that table up to that point, on anything from anybody."

Sounds to me like Harper was trying to buy votes.
 

The Philosopher

Nominee Member
Re: RE: Harper Halted

Derry McKinney said:
The Canadian Reform Alliance Party was never an alliance with the PCs, Philosopher. It was, in fact, just a name change in an attempt to hide who these people really are.

The formation of the Conservative Party of Canada was not a coming together to make two similar parties into one either, it was a hostile takeover of the Progressive Conservative Party by the Canadian Reform Alliance Party.
It was, in the end, just another attempt by the radical right to hide who they are.

It hasn't worked. The person who was supposed to be their face of progressiveness got fed up and joined the Liberals, following the path of Brison and others. I've also heard, and we really won't know until there's an election, that the new Progressive Canadian Party is gaining a fair bit of support in Ontario.

As for coalitions not working...I always find it hilarious that Italy is always used as an example of that. Most democratic countries use some form of proportional representation not dissimilar from Italy and have coalitions all of the time, yet their governments are not unstable.

You have to try and look beyond the spin of things. Scott Brison would say he was supposed to be someone big in the New Conservative Party, and so would anyone else who left to the Liberals. They want to show that they had an equally strong position in both parties so they do not look like they sold out their values in exchange for a job. I'm not sure if Scott Brison did that but I do know that his opinions on issues have changed since becoming a Liberal.

The Canadian Alliance made no attempt at creating a real platform. The Canadian Alliance did not throw out a practice budget. They made no attempt at even identifying what made them a party. They fell apart because they were made of too many radicals on both sides. Preston Manning and Joe Clark who formed the Canadian Alliance opposed a unified party because the two parties had different values. The attempt now is to unify the parties under one ideological banner. They have not fulfilled this yet and as I said to think they will fulfill this soon is folly.

The "radical right" do not hide who they are. They show in a platform what they are all about. They are trying to improve their image though. The problem is that on social issues the only people to push their opinions are liberals. The only conservative opinions you hear on issues are not logical ones like the liberals. They usually bring on a priest or a member from the "Gays are Evil and Should Burn in Hell Society."

Politicians cannot speak on their views on these issues. The moment Harper said he was in favor of the gay civil union everyone jumped at him and said, "AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE." The Liberals absolutely fear taking any stance. The moment they said, "We're in talks about the missile defence plan" people took it as him supporting the plan (because the majority felt that it was weaponization of space, when it wasn't). In the end since politicians cannot say what they're about it leaves it to civilians to say what they're about.. and the Conservatives have quite the bad groups supporting them in terms of making arguments.

You can call it a "hostile takeover" by the Reform Party or whatsoever but if it was NO Blue conservatives would have any place of power in that party. Once again it is an attempt to paint a dirty picture on this party.

Germany's government collapsed a week ago New Zealand's collapsed a month ago. Italy has just recently had elections. These are the only three countries in the world that use proportional representation. Iraq also uses proportional representation and it cannot elect a house speaker (its been almost six months now). Proportional representation by nature is unstable. In Germany only the SDP has maintained a full term. Ireland's single transfer vote has maintained strong, but that's because they only have two parties and one party always maintains over 60% of the seats.

On another issue, vote buying was not the major concern. It was how and why. Some felt that Belinda Stronach sold out her values for money. This is why she was called a "political whore." Cadmen had NO position on government. In such a situation BUYING a person's vote with a political position is useful. With a new political position they are actively able to help their constituents better. Getting a cabinet position does not mean you have to change your views... although for the safety of my student loan I'm happy she is forced to toe the party line and do what they want her to do (she's in a ministry full of liberals advising her).
 

Derry McKinney

Electoral Member
May 21, 2005
545
0
16
The Owl Farm
RE: Harper Halted

Your history of the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives does not match what has been said in the press by all involved or the recent history of the right wing of Canadian politics.

Vote buying is a major concern. The Conservatives have screaming about it every time a microphone waves near their faces. One of their operatives took a tape recorder to a meeting with the Liberals, either in an attempted frame-up or a questionable (and failed) attempt at a sting operation. Now it turns out that Harper was trying to buy the most influential seat in the house.
 

The Philosopher

Nominee Member
RE: Harper Halted

There's a difference between buying the vote of an independent and buying the vote of a party member. Party member show an ideology, independents do not. It may be in the interest of an independent to get a position of power while maintaining independent.

It's not doing it, its why it is done or in some cases, how it is done (stolen money is one prominent way).
 

Derry McKinney

Electoral Member
May 21, 2005
545
0
16
The Owl Farm
Re: Harper Halted

There's a difference between buying the vote of an independent and buying the vote of a party member.

So my vote is worth more than the guy down the street? I don't think so.

Party member show an ideology, independents do not.

Chuck Cadman has been very clear about his ideology.

It's not doing it, its why it is done or in some cases, how it is done

So offering a seat to somebody you refused to sign papers for less than a year ago is okay, but taking on somebody who clearly agrees with many of your policies is not?
 

The Philosopher

Nominee Member
RE: Harper Halted

Chuck Cadmen said leading into the vote that he would not tell anyone where he was leaning until the vote itself. he said he would do polls with his riding on what he should do and he did. He even did a poll with the riding on two positions:
1) Liberal Heritage Minister
2) Independent Minister of Justice

Both sides were trying to "buy his vote" with positions and he did a poll on which they would prefer (votes were inconclusive).

Right now the light is on the Liberals who were trying to get Conservatives to cross the floor. They struck up a deal with Belinda behind the party's back and this tape that was circulating about the potential for action. There needs to be proper investigations into these actions. And I do agree, that the Conservatives, NDP, and Bloc should all be investigated. But I'm thinking that the Liberals will have more dirty pillows than the Conservatives. The other issue is that is it individuals or is it the party perpetrating individuals to do things. If it is A then those people should be punished... but if it is B, then the whole party should be punished.

In the last election the Liberals had an extra million to spend over the Conservatives. The Liberals did not win in a lot of ridings by a lot, an extra million in campaign finance would have done wel. That is not even to include all of the individual checks that were given out to individual members to finance their campaigns.

The Gomery Inquiry is investigating that bit and has shown some money going to the Liberal Party directly and a lot to individual liberals. Smaller investigations could be used to show the nature of other corruption. BUT, the problem right now is credibility. The Liberals said they stole no money from the government, then they said they stole some. Honesty has not been their policy.
 

Derry McKinney

Electoral Member
May 21, 2005
545
0
16
The Owl Farm
Re: Harper Halted

Chuck Cadman said:
"The discussions did come up," he admitted on CTV's COUNTDOWN with Mike Duffy later Thursday night. "The talk did come up, yeah."

Cadman said he refused, however.

"That was the only offer on anything that I had from anybody," he added, rebuffing suggestions he made a deal to throw his support behind the Liberals.

See that? Harper was the only one making the offers. You can try to spin all you want, but you should at least take the time to read the quotes.

The Liberals have fewer ridings than the Conservatives where the margin of victory was less than 5%. Interestingly enough, several of those Conservative ridings would have gone to the NDP if it wasn't for Liberal scare tactics taking votes away from the NDP. You could be down by another 10 or 12 seats because of the NDP alone according to some analysts.

This thread isn't called, "Another place for Harperites to make excuses," though. It's called Harper halted.
 

no1important

Time Out
Jan 9, 2003
4,125
0
36
56
Vancouver
members.shaw.ca
RE: Harper Halted

It is funny how Harper offers Cadman an uncontested seat when he would not do it last year and let some quack stack the nomination meeting. The conservative lackey in last election in Chuck's riding finished a very distant 4th.

Cadman- 15,089
NDP- 8,312
Liberal-5,413
Cons-4,340
Green- 658

source Elections Canada
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
2,004
0
36
Proud to be in Alberta
Re: Harper Halted

Derry McKinney said:
Chuck Cadman said:
"The discussions did come up," he admitted on CTV's COUNTDOWN with Mike Duffy later Thursday night. "The talk did come up, yeah."

Cadman said he refused, however.

"That was the only offer on anything that I had from anybody," he added, rebuffing suggestions he made a deal to throw his support behind the Liberals.

See that? Harper was the only one making the offers. You can try to spin all you want, but you should at least take the time to read the quotes.

The Liberals have fewer ridings than the Conservatives where the margin of victory was less than 5%. Interestingly enough, several of those Conservative ridings would have gone to the NDP if it wasn't for Liberal scare tactics taking votes away from the NDP. You could be down by another 10 or 12 seats because of the NDP alone according to some analysts.

This thread isn't called, "Another place for Harperites to make excuses," though. It's called Harper halted.

Given the liberals record of "honesty", then I think I will take the Gomery approach and wait and see what materializes with Cadman down in the future. There is nothing in the Liberals recent past which should lead anyone to believe that nothing was discussed.
 

Derry McKinney

Electoral Member
May 21, 2005
545
0
16
The Owl Farm
RE: Harper Halted

Cadman is a Conservative, Blue. He wanted to run for your party, but Harper wouldn't let him. Harper then went and tried to buy Cadman's vote when he needed it.

Now you are saying that Cadman, one of the few politicians who is considered fair and honest by the majority of those who know his work, is lying. You are saying that solely because the corruption of Harper and his ites have been brought to light by Cadman.