Language futures Canada.

What is your vision of Canada's language future?

  • Universal bilingualism (French and English, no translation or interpretation required by government)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • National bilingualism, individual monolingualism (French or English, all documents must be translate

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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What is your vision of Canada's language future, and why?

My vision would be the first option sinse an easy second language would allow for universal bilingualsim, save the government money on translation, and allow neither French or Englsih Canadians to have to submit to the language and cultural hegemony of the other side.

As for the second option, obviously we've tried it for years and most still can't learn their second language well, so give it up already (not to mention that having to learn French and English leaves the first nations with little time to invest in the preservation of their native languages.

And as for national bilingualsim and individual monolingualsim, well, that's what we have now, isn't it?

I'd be interested in reading your ideas.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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RE: Language futures Cana

The universal auxilary idea has been around what, at least 30 years? It's been presented as everything from the path to world peace to a good way to pick up chicks. I don't know very many people who know Esperanto though.

I think official bilingualism with individual choice (not unilingualism...I only speak one language, but I know quite a few people fluent in more than one language) is reality. That isn't going to change because many people consider language to be as much a part of their culture as ethnic foods, music, and dancing.
 

Andem

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Mar 24, 2002
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I agree with Reverend Blair.

There's never going to be universal bilingualism as culture is highly intertwined with language. I don't believe Anglophone Canadians will want to give up their language's prominence as much as Francophones would want to give up their French.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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But don't forget...

Canada is made up of two founding nations plus 64 native languages, making a total of 66 languages. Of course, ethics aside, the French and Enghlsih Canadians can continue to fight for your colonial languages. But assuming ethics overrides political might, then I think we could all share language space by putting English and french on a more equal footing with the first nations. And I believe (hope?) that the next generation of Canadians is more concerned with language ethics than language power.
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
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Montréal, Québec
Re: But don't forget...

Machjo said:
Canada is made up of two founding nations plus 64 native languages, making a total of 66 languages. Of course, ethics aside, the French and Enghlsih Canadians can continue to fight for your colonial languages. But assuming ethics overrides political might, then I think we could all share language space by putting English and french on a more equal footing with the first nations. And I believe (hope?) that the next generation of Canadians is more concerned with language ethics than language power.

Natives don't have much to say in this... They run their own reserve, ends there. Sure, thing must change, but you can't expect them to be apart of our goverments if they do not start paying taxes and living by the same rules of law as us. The Crie in the north for example, incest is present in 3/4 of the households. And this is not part of their culture.... It just ended up that way in the past 40 years. Outcasted Crie are denouncing it...
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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RE: Language futures Cana

No, incest isn't part of their culture...it's the result of centuries of oppression and the legacy of residential schools. As for your comments about paying taxes, Numure, they don't pay taxes because that is part of the way we are paying for the land we took from them. Treaties with native bands are at the same level as international treaties. They cannot be easily cancelled. You need to do some research...the treaties are available on-line.

Machjo, the natives will accept English and French as the official languages, albeit grudgingly, because they do understand the expense and the impossibility of translating every government document into 66 languages. At least that seems to be the prevailing attitude among the natives I've talked to here on the prairies.
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
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Re: RE: Language futures Cana

Reverend Blair said:
No, incest isn't part of their culture...it's the result of centuries of oppression and the legacy of residential schools. As for your comments about paying taxes, Numure, they don't pay taxes because that is part of the way we are paying for the land we took from them. Treaties with native bands are at the same level as international treaties. They cannot be easily cancelled. You need to do some research...the treaties are available on-line.

Machjo, the natives will accept English and French as the official languages, albeit grudgingly, because they do understand the expense and the impossibility of translating every government document into 66 languages. At least that seems to be the prevailing attitude among the natives I've talked to here on the prairies.

The same with the ones I know of... And to be precise, the Montagnais of my ancestry (I have Montagnais blood, meet a few of my "distant" cousins as well). Not every Indian Nation is... Hard to negotiate with.

My short term solution, give it to the provinces to negotiate with the Natives. With that, would be easiyer to give them health care and education. Seeing as its a provincial juristiction.

Also, if that is done, give each Native tribe a seat in provincial parlement (Adding 64 tribes for the federal level would be quite harder... ). Giving them a bigger voice in goverment afairs.

For education, work with them to develop their language so it can be thought, in a secular school program. Help them develop the tools for their culture, and eventually, they can be a big part in Québec or Canada...
 

Machjo

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Sorry, Reverend...

Seems there was a misunderstanding; my intent was not to suggest that we ought to have 66+ official laguages at the federal level, but rather one language only, albeit one that's easy to learn so as to give the natives more time during the school day to focus on developping their own culture and language rather than having to learn both English and French so as to be able to cross Canada unimpeded by language.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Andf to Numure...

About taxes; we took their land: how much more tax are they expected to pay?

And about incest: I wonder which forced residential school they learnt that from?

Don't you think we owe them something for the scars we've left them, whcih will not heel entirely within only one generation?
 

Rick van Opbergen

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Isn't English already the modern day Esperanto, to put it in such a way? I would personally vote for option three, with subsidies for Native Canadians to preserve their own languages, as language can be defined as one of the aspects of culture (correct me if there are already subsidies for Native Canadians for preserving their original languages).
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Hi Rick.

Rick van Opbergen said:
Isn't English already the modern day Esperanto, to put it in such a way? I would personally vote for option three, with subsidies for Native Canadians to preserve their own languages, as language can be defined as one of the aspects of culture (correct me if there are already subsidies for Native Canadians for preserving their original languages).

I get the impression that your first sentense is referring to English on a worldwide scale, beyond Canada's borders, and so I'll answer it as such.

As for English being a modern day Esperanto, I think we need to clarify a few points. For the sake of clarification, I'll define an 'international language' as a language which can be spoken in many nations, and a 'universal language' as a language everyone in the world can speak.

As for a universal language, no such language exists at the moment, so there is nothing more to say on that point. Now as for international languages capable of becomming a universal language, I can see English and Esperanto (or a similar language) as contenders. And here are some of the arguments I'd put in favour of Esperanto as the best contender, based on my personal experiences living in English Canada, Quebec and China:

English, the language of automatons: Granted more than 90% of China's population has studied English in school, yet you'd never know by just walking along the streets in an average Chinese city. Certainly English ha the advantage of numbers over Esperanto: practically everyone can say hello, and most can introduce themselves (i.e., give their names, say where they're from, and ask the same.). A large minority can give the price of goods, fewer can give directions, and very few can do business with reasonable efficiency (not including legal matters such as contracts, where a mastery of the grammer, an understanding of legal and technical terminology, nuance and cultural implications are concerned). And needless to say that those who can communicate on a legal level are rare indeed (I always get frustrated with contract negotiations, where their command of Englsih and mine of Chinese becomes as clear as day). And if we're looking beyond that to those capable of discussing philosophy, religion, literature, history, culture etc. is concerned, they're as rare as gold. In the end, with the exception of those capable of communicating at the higher levels are concerned, most who want to engage in conversation will always ask the same set of predictable questions they were drilled in school, and respond with just as much predictability, a little like computer programmed automatons regurgitating what they'd memorized in English class without any real understanding, to the point where I now refuse to speak English unless necessary just to avoid the sheer boredom of it all. And as for Quebec, It's not much different if you live in la Malbaie-Pointe-au-Pic or Roberval (of course Montreal is an exception). One difference in Quebec, mind you, is that tey're not so fanatical about English learning and so I don't get harassed by so many mundane questions (either that or it was just that I was white so I blended in better?).

Esperanto (the language of the heart): I've actually managed to travel through many parts of China in Esperanto, and althought not many people know the language in China, there is always at least a handful in every city. One big difference, however, is that even after fewer than three years of self-study (compared to sometimes nine or more years of classroom English instrucion), they can already speak the language with native-like fluency. As a result, we can discuss philosophy, religion, literature, history, culture, etc., without any hinderance from any language barrier. this allows for a much better environment in which to develop deeper friendships by far.

So as far as language futures are concerned, it seems to me that the choice is between a future of English automatons responding like robots to preprogrammed questions and always shortcircutting if the questin or answer is outside the pale of their expectations, or a future with Esperanto or similar language in which people can actually behave like normal human beings, respond naturally to questions, joke, laugh, and be able to negotiate contracts properly as well.

Between these two language futures, I'd rather communicate with human than with preprogrammed computerized automatons.
 

Rick van Opbergen

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When comparing English to Esperanto, you have to take certain things in consideration. I'll start with one of the most important factors: the motivation of people to learn a certain language. As you said, English is drilled in at schools, can take up to nine years (taking China as example) without the assurance that people will fully master it (taking China as example again). For Esperanto, you say, that is different, and in three years, people can learn the language through self-study. Lets compare: English - forced to learn at school; Esperanto - comes out of own motivation to learn (I'm not aware of any large-scale used Esperanto-classes at schools). When people learn a language out of own motivation, rather than being forced to learn a language at an institute like a school, I think the results will be far better. If I would study Russian for three years out of own motivation, I think I will learn the language at a better rate than when I learn Russian at school without the motivation of wanting to learn it. I can take an example which is based on reality: a friend of mine wanted to keep the possibility open to study in Germany, and out of own motivation, he started to learn German. In just 6 months, he said, he had learned German in a fluent way (out of own motivation), while he said the four years of German lessons he had at school did by far not do the same (and I agree - four years of German lessons, and to say I'm fluent in the language ...).

Concerning the English classes you describe, you should ask yourself: is that because of the language, or is it because of the way English is taught? And another question can be linked: if Esperanto will be fully taught at schools, will it guarantee better results, or will the outcome be the same as what you described for English?
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Hi again Rick.

Rick van Opbergen said:
When comparing English to Esperanto, you have to take certain things in consideration. I'll start with one of the most important factors: the motivation of people to learn a certain language. As you said, English is drilled in at schools, can take up to nine years (taking China as example) without the assurance that people will fully master it (taking China as example again). For Esperanto, you say, that is different, and in three years, people can learn the language through self-study. Lets compare: English - forced to learn at school; Esperanto - comes out of own motivation to learn (I'm not aware of any large-scale used Esperanto-classes at schools). When people learn a language out of own motivation, rather than being forced to learn a language at an institute like a school, I think the results will be far better. If I would study Russian for three years out of own motivation, I think I will learn the language at a better rate than when I learn Russian at school without the motivation of wanting to learn it. I can take an example which is based on reality: a friend of mine wanted to keep the possibility open to study in Germany, and out of own motivation, he started to learn German. In just 6 months, he said, he had learned German in a fluent way (out of own motivation), while he said the four years of German lessons he had at school did by far not do the same (and I agree - four years of German lessons, and to say I'm fluent in the language ...).

Concerning the English classes you describe, you should ask yourself: is that because of the language, or is it because of the way English is taught? And another question can be linked: if Esperanto will be fully taught at schools, will it guarantee better results, or will the outcome be the same as what you described for English?

Many good points. I would venture to say, however, that if a child were forced to learn Chinese at school vs. turkish (with a much more regular grammar and phonetic spelling, it's clear that he'd learn Turtkish more quickly, unless of course the government has already invested much in teacher education for Chinese, but there were no qualified Turkish teachers. I believe it's the same here. Certainly to force Esperanto or a similar langauge on the population at this time would merely lead to a teacher shortage. I could see the option of at least making such a language an option when others aren't available.

And as for motivation: I also believe that ease of learning can also be a motivational factor. Out of the four languages one can choose from in Polish middle schools, Esperanto is third, with French being fourth. Even though French is more useful on a global scale, I suspect that those who beleive they'll never leave Poland anyway and simply want an easy langauge to learn would choose Esperanto. Granted now I'm appealing to laziness on the part of the student, but I believe some diligent students might choose it also not just because it's easy but, just as was the case with me, curiosity, phylosophical and other reasons as well.

So in conclusion, I must agree that it would be too early to impose such a language at this time, but I do believe that it could be approapriate to offer it as an elective as they are now doing in Poland.

Although I must also apologise for getting a little off topic, seeing that this thread was originally referring to the language issue in Canada. But hey, no one else is using the thread for that purpose, so I suppose we can go on a tangent and discuss it on a global scale as well, no?

Your thoughts?
 

Rick van Opbergen

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You have a lot of good points as well :) Now, in what way is Esperanto easier to learn than lets say English? And by that, I mean for people who do not have an Indo-European language as their mother tongue, and who do not use the Latin alphabet. And when do you think the time is right to impose Esperanto en la lernejo? ( :wink: )
 

Machjo

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Interesting questions...

Rick van Opbergen said:
You have a lot of good points as well :) Now, in what way is Esperanto easier to learn than lets say English? And by that, I mean for people who do not have an Indo-European language as their mother tongue, and who do not use the Latin alphabet. And when do you think the time is right to impose Esperanto en la lernejo? ( :wink: )

As for Eseperanto being easier to learn, especfially for speakers of non-Indo-European language, I think the secret lies in the logic of the language. For Example, despite no lnowledge of related languages, I'd found it quite easy to learn Chinese Pinyin, because once I'd learnt the rules for pronouncing the letters, I merely had to apply them from there on in. I'd found the same with Chinese counting, although there are some exceptions, but few enough to be easy to remember. Yet when it came to characters, counting words, etc. for which there is no logic, only memorization, that's when it started getting hard. I'd found the same with Arabic and Persian; except for the short vowels, it's not so difficult to learn to read these languages, but the exceptions to the rules and unnecessary rules are what made it hard (in the case of Arabic for example, the only way to learn the plural of a word is to memorize each plural individually because there really isn't a standard rule for i)t. The secret of Esperanto for those whose native language is not Indo-European is its regularity and grammatical reliability. In English for instance, the plural doesn't always end in -s (mice), and the collective is a mess as well (a flock of sheep, but a school of fish; a litter of cats, but a pack of wolves; a library of books, but a billy of goats; a deck of cards, but flock of birds, etc.). 'l' isn't aslways pronounced 'l' (colonel), and the past tense doesn't always end in -ed as in danced (flew, ran, spat, ate, slept, spun, etc.) So once one learns the rule, he can't confidently apply it out of fear that there might be another exception around the corner (unless he's memorized every exception of course.) And then consider the synonyms (English often has three words with the same meaning (one of latin, one of Germanic, and one of French origin). So the student requires many years of memorization of useless exceptions and synonyms in order to be able to use the language properly. That just doesn't exist with Esperanto, which is why it's at least five times easier to learn, all else being equal.



And as for imposing Esperanto en la lernejo, I really don't have an answer for that. At the moment I believe there would be a teacher shortage if we tried it now. So instead I'd be more in favour of making Esperanto a possible elective, at least as a propaedeutic starting at the age of eight for a period of two to three years, followed by whatever language the student wants to learn in middle school. And certainly schools ought not be forced to provide Espernato lessons, but rather simply allowed to do so should they wish to do so instead of English, in order to ensure schools need not worry if they can't find the qualified staff in the beginning.
 

Rick van Opbergen

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But what's the use of giving the schools the own choice of deciding whether Esperanto will be part of the schoolprogram? I hardly believe a majority will be in favor of doing so (extra teachers, extra lessonmaterials etc.). And Esperanto is not a language with a stable base. As you can learn Russian if you want to go to Russia, or Turkish if you want to go to Turkey, that will not be case with Esperanto. I know that that part is seen as an advantage, for Esperanto can not be applied in some sort of nationalistic, racist etc. way, but on the other hand, I guess it will be harder to determine where, or even when, to use it. And if you are not certain of that, of the practical use of Esperanto, I can understand people (or schools) are really not interested in learning (or teaching) it.
 

Machjo

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More good points...

Rick van Opbergen said:
But what's the use of giving the schools the own choice of deciding whether Esperanto will be part of the schoolprogram? I hardly believe a majority will be in favor of doing so (extra teachers, extra lessonmaterials etc.). And Esperanto is not a language with a stable base. As you can learn Russian if you want to go to Russia, or Turkish if you want to go to Turkey, that will not be case with Esperanto. I know that that part is seen as an advantage, for Esperanto can not be applied in some sort of nationalistic, racist etc. way, but on the other hand, I guess it will be harder to determine where, or even when, to use it. And if you are not certain of that, of the practical use of Esperanto, I can understand people (or schools) are really not interested in learning (or teaching) it.

From my experience (and I have exchanged ideas on this with many a schol headmaster), you're right. Most schools wouldn't be interested in the least. Some, however, would. Bear in mind also that at the moment, due to China's Englih elarning policy, there is now a critical shortage of speakers of other langauges in the country, and the government is slowly starting to acknowledge it. In Nanjing, for example, high quality jobs for Englsih-speakers can run at 200RMB/hr, whereas the same job for speakers of langauges other than English could run at 500rmb/hr. The tourist industry and many companies are already competing tooth and nail for these people, including Arabic, Swahili, French, Polish, and especially Spanish. Many companies and universities have even given up looking for Spanish speakers despite the fierce demand, so that whole industry is soon going to crash in China if it doesn't change soon. Granted this doesn't apply to Esperanto, but it still means that English will fall in favour of the other languages mentionned above and others. So where does Esperanto fit into all this? Well, first off, it's not just a matter of hiring the Spanish speaking teacher, interpreter, etc. It's also a matter of ensuring the Spanish speaker can communicate with the employer, students and others. After all, if the boss only knows English and Chinese, and the students only know Chinese, how will a Spaniard who doesn't know either Englsih or Chinese teach? And even if he did know English, what use is it if the student doesn't know English. And even if the Spaniard knew Chinese, then he'd go into interpretation and translation for the money, unless he just loves teaching of course. So the problem can't be solved so easily, logisticaly. In the case of Esperanto, however, there are already over 30 universities teaching it, over 10,000 speakers of the language, and a booming Esperanto-industry. Just this month a friend of mine has gone to Poland to sign a contract between Beijing Software University and 'Studumo pri Turismo', whereby Chinese students could learn Esperanto for their bachelors, and then study their Master's in Poland via Esperanto. I've also met foreign Esperanto-tourists on a regular basis for the last two years. And all this without government suport, with English being an obligatory course in school, with exams and business opportunities in English, a general opinion in China that everyone in the world speaks English, and yet Esepranto is still growing after more than 100 years. So I can only immagine that allowing schools to choose could only increase, not decrease, this rate of success.

So I'm sure some Chinese primary and middle schools will try to use Esperanto as a strategy to give students a solid linguistic base before learning other European langauges, once the Chiense government no longer makes English a required subject. This could also solve logistical problems as well, since then the language of instruction itself could be Espranto while they learn other languages or do business in the language.

And as for history and culture, Esperanto is very much a part of the historical fabric of Chinese culture. Mao Zedong, Luxun, and Song Kai Shek supported it, and Cai Yuanpei and Bajing spoke the language. Green May, a Japanese woman, even collaborated with the Chinese against the Japanese during the Sino-Japanese war. The Chinese likewise respect Leo Tolstoy verym uch, and he was also a speaker of the langauge. In China, history plays a large role in people's thoughts.

Cai Yuanpei, whom they look up to, even said:

“The Chinese language is very different from Western languages. However, it is essential for China, at this point in its history, to establish communication with other countries so that it can learn from them. In order for that to happen, China needs an auxiliary language and Esperanto is the most suitable. If many Chinese knew Esperanto, then any foreigner wishing to come to China would only need to learn that language. And that would increase the number of Esperantists in the world and help to propagate the language, as is our duty...It is much harder for Chinese people to learn other languages than it is for Westerners. However, once we have learned one European language, then we are no different from a Westerner who wishes to learn another language. If that first language we learn is Esperanto, it will definitely help us to learn other European languages.”


Granted the quote above is a little dated (prior to the establishment of the people's republic, in fact), but it does illustrate an important part of Chinese history. And even though only a limited number of schools would show interest, that would still be an improvement. And considering Esperanto has been able to succeed without help, political backing, economic or military clout, one can only immagine what it could accomplish if governments simply stepped out of the way and simply allowed schools to adopt it as a second language.