One nation, one identity?

[Machjo]

I'm typing this in English for the benefit of those on the English side of the Canadian language battle lines who truly care about Canadian unity and language justice in the world.

Would anglophones be interested in considering Esepranto as the official language of Canada at the federal level? Federal bilingualism at present, censidering the power of English in the world today, boils down to everyone having the right to choose English, and this in the long term can only lead to one of three options:

1. Total assimilation of Canadians to English.

2. The separation of Quebec from Canada.

3. A continuation of the current standoff between French and English.

I believe that Esperanto, being at least 5 times easier to learn than either English or French, could serve well as Canada's federal language, thus allowing all Canadians to acquire a common language with little investment of time required. It would also avoid any sense of one side having to submit to the cultural hegemony of the other. And an additional economic advantage would be to save the government money on translation and interpretation at the federal level due to a common language. And at the national level, this could provide for a common national identity, or cultural bilingualism in the native and common national cultures as it were.

Europe is likewise becomming more interested in Esperanto as a possible solution, with 43% of MEP's having voted for a bill to make Esperanto the official language for translation and interpretation when direct interpretation isn't available, to replace English for that purpose (http://www.lingvo.org/). Though the majority voted against it, 43% is still not a smal number, and that's before some new eastern European countries which are even more favourable to Esperanto than their western counterparts joined. Now in Poland one can choose between English, German, Esperanto and French in middle school, with the languages currently being popular in that order of importance. the Italian Ministry of Education is also now encouraging Esperanto as a propaedeutic (http://www.esperantic.org/f-r1.htm) in high primary schools to prepare students for English learning in middleschool. For more information on the official Italian stance on Espranto, viz. http://www.internationallanguage.org/ .

Research on the propaedeutic advantages of Esperanto in the learning of Asian languages has also gained further interest in Australian education (http://www.monash.edu.au/) since Australia is now realising that not enough Asians are mastering English and inversely Asian languages are too difficult for most Australians.

I believe anyone who truly cares about Canadian unity and also in linguistic justice (for justice must be the foundation of harmony in the long term) will consider the option of an easy second language as Canada's common second language.

 

[Andem]

This doesn't make any sense.

So what you are suggesting is that everybody people learn this esparanto and forget about learning both official languages? Sorry, but French isn't a difficult language. Comparing learning French or English to a English or French speaker to Australians to Asian languages is wrong.

I think ditching our official languages is a step in the worse direction.

 

[Machjo]

How much longer?

English and French are not too difficult to learn? I'm fluent in both (but then again, I was reaised bilingual). But how many Canadians are fuly fluent in both French and English, despite decades of instruction on both sides of the languageg barrier? And even when an Englsih speaker does learn French and a French speaker does learn English, the language of communication useually ends up being English anyway. So of course native Englsih speakers support official French English bilingualsim. It goes in their interests. I believe a common easy second language could provide a hedge against English language hegemony, and perhaps make some of us French Canadians feel more like equals in Canada.

 

[Andem]

Then that's not fair to Francophones if their language's status is taken over by a language which has absolutely nothing to do with either cultures in Canada. I still support French / English, because they both have very strong roots in Canada.

 

[Machjo]

?

How would an auxiliary language threaten ours? Certainly French Canadians might need to spend much time to learn English to maintain their economic advantage in Canada, and because of the English language's influence in the world, its force is overwhelming.

An auxiliary language, on the other hand, would be easy to learn, resulting in more time to spare in the developement of the native language and culture. This could hold true for the first nations as well.

And considering that language is becomming a hotter political potato by the day in the EU and the UN, it's certain that such a policy in canada would have a ripple effect (a bit like a spark in a room already filled with gas). This would allow other nations to defend themselves against English hegemonism as well. And just consider the polical advantages (I wouldn't need to always use your language anymore unless I wish to do so, which would go far to promote a sense of linguistic equality between our two peoples). And this certainly wouldn't prevent provincial governments to adopt additional official languages as well. this would only apply to the federal level as an auxiliary language.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Will enough people be motivated to learn Esperanto? You are idealistic in learning Esperanto (it seems) - I don't think that accounts for the far, far majority of people. Why stick time in a language which has not yet proven to have any good future, and is not used by ANY country in the world as a proven, good second language?

 

[Numure]

RE: One nation, one ident

Sorry, I'm not learning esperanto... Rip off of Spanish. I'd rather learn spanish...

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

I would also like to add that the European interest in Esperanto is relative. Maybe in EU politics is there a certain backing for Esperanto; but for the normal European in the street, it's no issue.

 

[Machjo]

Numure, great idea.

Sorry, I'm not learning esperanto... Rip off of Spanish. I'd rather learn spanish...

I wouldn't agree that Esperanto is a rip off of Spanish (How much Germanic, Slavic and Semitic influence has Spanish got?).

But as for your second point, that might not be a bad idea after all!

First off, Spanish is probably the easiest European language to learn. So certainly French Canadians could learn Spanish more easily than they could learn English, since Spanish and French are of the same language family. And if Spanish is the easiest European language, then I suppose that implies that it would be easier for an English Canadian likewise to elarn Spanish.

And as for the economic benefits beyond just learnability in the classroom? French and English Canadians could still do business with the French and English speaking worlds through their native languages, and at the same time communicate with one another in reasonably good Spanish on both sides as opposed to total linguaistic incompetence on both sides in their yet-to-be-acquired second language. This would also give all Canadians access to most of the South American market as well as Spain.

Only thing is, since I don't know Spanish myself and have only read linguistic information about it, while I know Spanish is probably the easiest European language, I still don't know if it would be easy enough for the average English Canadian (whose native language is Germanic, not Romance) to learn to native-like fluency. But even if it weren't the case, they could prabably still learn it to a higher level of fluency than they could French, which would therefore be a step in the right direction none the less.


Your thoughts?

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Isn't English not the "easiest" European language? I mean with that, not necessarily the easiest language to learn, but it IS the language which can be heard everyday on television, radio, or seen on the internet etc. Now, the Netherlands is not really a good example for this, cause Dutch is probably the language most linked with English (besides Frisian, and maybe German), but my little nephew - who is six and has someone not been taught any English at school - does already know the basics of English, mainly through the frequent use of English in cartoons, games, TV etc. With English already applied on such a large scale, does that not make English an "easier" language to pick in the world of today?

 

[Machjo]

Good point, Rick.

Isn't English not the "easiest" European language? I mean with that, not necessarily the easiest language to learn, but it IS the language which can be heard everyday on television, radio, or seen on the internet etc. Now, the Netherlands is not really a good example for this, cause Dutch is probably the language most linked with English (besides Frisian, and maybe German), but my little nephew - who is six and has someone not been taught any English at school - does already know the basics of English, mainly through the frequent use of English in cartoons, games, TV etc. With English already applied on such a large scale, does that not make English an "easier" language to pick in the world of today?

So then if the goal was to ensure that all Canadians learn English, you certainly have a good point there, although I doubt French Canadians would be too happy about that :lol: On the European scale, I can't answer for myself because I've never been there. And as for China, considering that our languages are so different, they need all the help they can get if a European-based language is going to become the universal language. Sure we could include more TV, music, etc., but would the Chinese ever need a dose and a half of it for them to learn it from osmosis. And as it stands now, many are learning it as of kindergarten, with an incresing public criticism of such a practice, since it takes from the time required to learn their own language well. Studies have alrready shown that test scores in their native language have been slipping across the country in the last few years, and I suspect that if it comes down to a choice between good Englsih and their native language, they'll choose their native language over good Englsih. So this will certainly become a hot issue in China in the future. I know Taiwan has already responded by banning its kindergartens from teaching English. And pressure's on in Hong Kong also. Here on the mainland however, the government has only started to acknowledge the problem recently, but has yet to respond in any way.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

And as for China, considering that our languages are so different, they need all the help they can get if a European-based language is going to become the universal language.

Isn't Esperanto an "European" language too, designed by Europeans, with parts of merely European languages in it (like Spanish)? How would Esperanto differ from English on this point?

Studies have alrready shown that test scores in their native language have been slipping across the country in the last few years, and I suspect that if it comes down to a choice between good English and their native language, they'll choose their native language over good Englsih. So this will certainly become a hot issue in China in the future.

Would that not be the same with Esperanto?

 

[Machjo]

As for test scores...

I don't believe it would be the same because they wouldn't need to invest as much time in learning it as they do with English, thus allowing them more free time to focus on developping their own langauge and culture.

And how is Eseranto easier than English:

In many ways:

Numbers are more logical. In English you must memorize the numbers eleven to nineteen, and then each 'ten' (20, 30, etc.) whereas in Esperanto you only need to learn the umbers one to ten, hundred, thousand etc. and then the rule on how to put them together. For example, if English grammar were the same, eleven would be 'ten one', 251 would be two-hundred twoten one, etc. Add to that that up to the number 999 Chinese and Esperanto rules are identical except that Esperanto has no 'counting words' and in Chinese the number two changes if used for the purpose of counting, thus making Espeanto even more logical than Chinese.

Also Esperanto, like many cases in Arabic, has a regular formulation for the feminine. For example in English the relationship between mother/father, son/daughter, rooster/hen, aunt/uncle, etc. isn't so bovious, and even when it is, the rule isn't regular such as waiter/waitress, etc. In Esperanto, as is often the case in Arabic, a suffix is added (in the case of Esperanto it's -in-, and there are no exceptions. This is also similar to the female and male indicators placed before the word in Chinese.

Whereas with English the student must memorize the pronounciation and spelling separately (colonel, lieutenant, as just two examples among many), in Esperanto it is 100% phonetic, and is similar to Chinese Pinyin (not by coincidence, but rather because Esperanto has had an influence in Chinese linguistic history, which I'll deal with later), thus making it sufficient to learn either the spelling or pronounciation of the word, thus reducing labour by half again.

Then we can look at sintax:

Chinese and Esperanto sintax have more in common with each otehr than they do with English. Below I will compare English phrases with literal translations which would be identical in both Chinese and Esperanto:

I like cookies very much.
I very like cookies.

This morning
today morning

I'm happy
I happy

I'm not happy
I no happy


And verb conjugation is not only more similar in Chinese and Esperanto, but there are also fewer parts to memorize:

I am/Mi Estas/Wo shi.
You are/Vi estas/Ni shi.
He is/Li estas/Ta shi (while he/she/it are the same in teh spoken langauge, the character used is different)
She is/Shi estas/Ta shi.
It is/Ghi estas/Ta shi.
We are/Ni estas/Women shi.
You are/Vi estas/Nimen shi.
They are/Ili estas/Tamen shi.

The case is also similar with other tenses likewise. So as you can see, whereas in English the student must memorize am/are/ is, and memorize when to use each case, and memorize the pronounciation and spelling separately, all of this is simplified in Esperanto.

Also, memorization is reduced further still with antonyms:

While the relationship isn't at all obvious between hot/cold, open/close, high/low, big/small, etc. the relationship is clear as day in Esperanto since the antonym for every word is created by adding a prefix indicating 'oposite of'.

Also thanks to the Hebrew influence, transitive verbs can be rendered intransitive and vice-versa with simple suffixes (-ig-, trans., and -igh-, intr.)

Then consider the further reduction of parts needed to be memorized by standardizing nouns, adjecitves and adverbs:

monkey/ simio
simian/simia
in a monkey-like manner/simie

eye/okulo
occular/okula
like an eye (referrring to a verb/action)/okule

dog/hundo
canine/hunda
in a dog-like maner/hunde

cat/kato
feline/kata
in a cat-like manner/kate


And the final point is that, because tehre are no exceptions to the rules whatsoever (in fact, that itself is one of the rules), the student can therefore feel much more confident in applying the rules once he learns them, just as he would in mathematics. He doesn't need to waste time memorizing the exceptions at all, since there are none.

 

[Machjo]

I also forgot another few points...

The posessive prounouns are produced regularly in Esepranto by adding the suffix -a to the regular pronoun, in the same way as adjectives are formed by adding -a to the nominal radical. It's also interesting to note that it's the same in Chinese, except that instead of the suffix -a, it's the particle de.

And as for the accusative pronouns, compare English and Eserpanto here:

I/me, mi/min
you/you, vi/vin
he/him, li/lin
she/her, shi/shin
it/it, ghi/ghin
we/us, ni/nin
you/you, vi/vin
they/them, ili/ilin

As you can see, all you need to learn in Esperanto in this case is the accusative suffix -n, compared to how much you need to memorize in English.

Also, as in hebrew and Chinese, Esperanto has no indefinite article. In Esperanto, it's simply implied by lack of a definite one.

I think just the examples I've given thus far (which is far from exhaustive), should already be more than enough proof that Esepranto isn't just a rip off from Spanish and that it is far easier to learn than other languages, motivation or whatever else being equal.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: One nation, one ident

but does it have all the weird nuances and double entendres of English? There are massive benefits to complexity in language.

 

[Andem]

Why is there so much talk about esperanto? I honestly believe that it will never happen. Furthermore, why would one spend resources on learning esperanto when the world's esperanto is English? Sure it may be easier to learn than English, but it's definately not an acquired asset. I seriously doubt you'd be considered a bilingual person (which is in high demand across the world) if you just speak one language plus esperanto.

If esperanto is such an easy language, why would you want it part of your culture anyways? Language is extremely tied to culture and both English and French are complex languages which give your brain a daily workout if you speak both.

 

[Machjo]

Good point, reverend...

but does it have all the weird nuances and double entendres of English? There are massive benefits to complexity in language.

As for complexity, it must not be confused with difficulty. After all, the metric system is just as effective as the imperial, despite its ease. Likewise, I wouldn't say that chinese is more expressive just because it's more difficult. For example, immagine if we replaced ran with runned. We'd still be able to express just as much despite the increaded ease in learning the language. Spanish likewise is just as expressive as English I'm sure despite its more logical spelling. And as for proof, I'm completely fluent in the langauge myself, and can express anything in Esepranto that I can in English, including puns and humour. The bible, the Qur'an and, the Bhagavad Gita, the Dhammapada and the Analects of Confucius are likewise translated eloquently in the langauge. And William Auld, who won a nomination for the Nobel Prize for literature, had also contributed greatly to esperanto poetry. Not to mention that Leo Tolstoy used Esperanto in his regular correspondence with Dr. Zamenhof. William Shatner also starred in the movie Incubus, entirely in Esperanto with English subtitles. So many famous people also knew/know the langauge.

 

[Machjo]

Good points, Andem.

Why is there so much talk about esperanto? I honestly believe that it will never happen. Furthermore, why would one spend resources on learning esperanto when the world's esperanto is English? Sure it may be easier to learn than English, but it's definately not an acquired asset. I seriously doubt you'd be considered a bilingual person (which is in high demand across the world) if you just speak one language plus esperanto.

If esperanto is such an easy language, why would you want it part of your culture anyways? Language is extremely tied to culture and both English and French are complex languages which give your brain a daily workout if you speak both.

My responce to Reverend Blair answered some of your questions already. So I'm sure you'd agree that Spanish isn't less rich in culture than English just because its spelling is more logical, or that the metric system is void of culture because it's easy. After all, would you refuse to learn mathematics and say it's void of cultrue because it's too logical?

Now as for Esperanto being in high demand. No, it's not in high demand across the world, but it's growing. As I'd mentionned in a previous post in this forum, a Chinese friend of mine is engaged in espperanto tourism and university relations between China and Poland, as is making a decent profit from it. Also, despite the fact that I'm fluent in English, French and Esperanto, and am currently studying Chinese, Arabic and Persian, I can say that I consider someone who speaks his native langauge and Esperanto well to be more bilingual than one who can't express himself properly in English aas his second language. That I don't consider bilingual. In the same way, I'd consider someone who'd mastered the metric system more competent in measurements than one who hadn't yet mastered the imperial one. And I can say likewise that when I expect quality interpretation in china, I rely on Chinese Eseprantists who can interpret every nuence accurately rather than English speakers the accuracy of whose interpretation I must usually doubt.

 

[Machjo]

And as for Esperanto culture...

I don't mind being in the company of Tolstoy, Einstein, Cai Yuanpei, and so on.

 

[kellystone]

"I believe that Esperanto, being at least 5 times easier to learn than either English or French"


English is the easiest language to learn. Everyone should learn how to speak it and it would be a perfect world.