Super Genius
Posts: 1,103 
June 22nd, 2004, 04:04 PM
From Slate....by Christopher Hitchens
Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11
"One of the many problems with the American left, and indeed of the American left, has been its image and self-image as something rather too solemn, mirthless, herbivorous, dull, monochrome, righteous, and boring. How many times, in my old days at The Nation magazine, did I hear wistful and semienvious ruminations? Where was the radical Firing Line show? Who will be our Rush Limbaugh? I used privately to hope that the emphasis, if the comrades ever got around to it, would be on the first of those and not the second. But the meetings themselves were so mind-numbing and lugubrious that I thought the danger of success on either front was infinitely slight....."
http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/
From Slate....by Christopher Hitchens
Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11
"One of the many problems with the American left, and indeed of the American left, has been its image and self-image as something rather too solemn, mirthless, herbivorous, dull, monochrome, righteous, and boring. How many times, in my old days at The Nation magazine, did I hear wistful and semienvious ruminations? Where was the radical Firing Line show? Who will be our Rush Limbaugh? I used privately to hope that the emphasis, if the comrades ever got around to it, would be on the first of those and not the second. But the meetings themselves were so mind-numbing and lugubrious that I thought the danger of success on either front was infinitely slight....."
http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/
Super Genius
Posts: 1,320
Location: Winnipeg
Location: Winnipeg
June 22nd, 2004, 06:51 PM
So Hitchens didn't like the movie? I wasn't too fond of Hitchens' take on Kissinger either...I thought Hitchens went too soft on him.
At least he offered up a real critique though. Those on the radical right are too busy telling people not to watch Farenheit 9/11 to actually watch it.
So Hitchens didn't like the movie? I wasn't too fond of Hitchens' take on Kissinger either...I thought Hitchens went too soft on him.
At least he offered up a real critique though. Those on the radical right are too busy telling people not to watch Farenheit 9/11 to actually watch it.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,103
June 22nd, 2004, 07:05 PM
Man, it wasn't that long ago that Hitchen's was hardcore left. I still say it's a toss up between him and David Horowitz who had the sterling left credentials.
Difference is of course, Horowitz went pretty right, though he still unrepentant on some of his left left views that he'll carry to the day he dies-- Hitchen's is still left-- with the exception of 9/11 and Iraq.
He is thoughtful, though, and damn smart and solid.
Did you really think he went too soft on K? I've seen some of writings and he realy excoriated the guy! In truth, I think his take on K is right on the money. K signed on his legacy in Cambodia, during Vietnam, in my opinion.
Quoting
I know what you mean. He's pretty thorough.
So Hitchens didn't like the movie? I wasn't too fond of Hitchens' take on Kissinger either...I thought Hitchens went too soft on him.
At least he offered up a real critique though. Those on the radical right are too busy telling people not to watch Farenheit 9/11 to actually watch it.
At least he offered up a real critique though. Those on the radical right are too busy telling people not to watch Farenheit 9/11 to actually watch it.
Man, it wasn't that long ago that Hitchen's was hardcore left. I still say it's a toss up between him and David Horowitz who had the sterling left credentials.
Difference is of course, Horowitz went pretty right, though he still unrepentant on some of his left left views that he'll carry to the day he dies-- Hitchen's is still left-- with the exception of 9/11 and Iraq.
He is thoughtful, though, and damn smart and solid.
Did you really think he went too soft on K? I've seen some of writings and he realy excoriated the guy! In truth, I think his take on K is right on the money. K signed on his legacy in Cambodia, during Vietnam, in my opinion.
Newbie
Posts: 27
June 23rd, 2004, 07:58 AM
Ivepsent alot of time talking to Americans on the net and over there and its like an insult jus to be called from the left or a liberal. Very strange for what I always thought historically and in spirit was a very liberal country.
Ive always associated left or liberal with loving freedom of choice civil equality, hating discrimination etc. After many of the greatest changes in America were brought about by the liberals.
It just seems wierd how its now an insult. IT seems like they are abandoning their ways.
Ivepsent alot of time talking to Americans on the net and over there and its like an insult jus to be called from the left or a liberal. Very strange for what I always thought historically and in spirit was a very liberal country.
Ive always associated left or liberal with loving freedom of choice civil equality, hating discrimination etc. After many of the greatest changes in America were brought about by the liberals.
It just seems wierd how its now an insult. IT seems like they are abandoning their ways.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,103
June 23rd, 2004, 10:07 AM
I think a lot of that has to do with the nature of discourse between liberals and conservatives.
Liberals nowadays tend to refer to conservatives as 'stupid', while conservatives tend to say liberals are 'wrong'. There is a not so subtle difference, not lost on either liberals or conservatives.
Air America (liberal radio) is having trouble attracting listeners, because, as even liberal media critics say, no one wants to listen to irrational rants day in and day out. Apologies to Al Franken.
Rush Limbaugh-- love him or leave him-- predicates his show (and politics) on what he believes are clear analysis, insight or debate. In an article I posted earlier, Christopher Hitchens recalls his days bemoaning the fact that the liberal movement couldn't come up with a credible opposite to Limabugh.
The good news is that I do believe that liberal radio, in it's next incarnation, will do a better job.
Irrespective of where you belong in the poitical spectrum, the nature of the discourse is disheatning. No one talks to each other any more-- they talk at each other.
There was a book published a few years ago about the how civilized discourse and exchange of ideas has fallen by the wayside. I'll see if I can look that up. In any case, the author's premise that the lack of discourse has contributed to disintegration of effective political debate and exchange of ideas.
It's an argument hard to discount
Quoting
You raise an interesting point, re the 'label' of liberal and/or conservative.
Ivepsent alot of time talking to Americans on the net and over there and its like an insult jus to be called from the left or a liberal. Very strange for what I always thought historically and in spirit was a very liberal country.
Ive always associated left or liberal with loving freedom of choice civil equality, hating discrimination etc. After many of the greatest changes in America were brought about by the liberals.
It just seems wierd how its now an insult. IT seems like they are abandoning their ways.
Ive always associated left or liberal with loving freedom of choice civil equality, hating discrimination etc. After many of the greatest changes in America were brought about by the liberals.
It just seems wierd how its now an insult. IT seems like they are abandoning their ways.
I think a lot of that has to do with the nature of discourse between liberals and conservatives.
Liberals nowadays tend to refer to conservatives as 'stupid', while conservatives tend to say liberals are 'wrong'. There is a not so subtle difference, not lost on either liberals or conservatives.
Air America (liberal radio) is having trouble attracting listeners, because, as even liberal media critics say, no one wants to listen to irrational rants day in and day out. Apologies to Al Franken.
Rush Limbaugh-- love him or leave him-- predicates his show (and politics) on what he believes are clear analysis, insight or debate. In an article I posted earlier, Christopher Hitchens recalls his days bemoaning the fact that the liberal movement couldn't come up with a credible opposite to Limabugh.
The good news is that I do believe that liberal radio, in it's next incarnation, will do a better job.
Irrespective of where you belong in the poitical spectrum, the nature of the discourse is disheatning. No one talks to each other any more-- they talk at each other.
There was a book published a few years ago about the how civilized discourse and exchange of ideas has fallen by the wayside. I'll see if I can look that up. In any case, the author's premise that the lack of discourse has contributed to disintegration of effective political debate and exchange of ideas.
It's an argument hard to discount
