What is the cause of racial hatred: racists or racial fricti

[JosephMorgan]

Does anyone else appreciate the irony that we rhetorically attack racism, yet support increasing racial diversity in communities? Racial hatred is caused by racial friction; racial friction is caused by two or more races trying to share the same territory. Racists are the symptom, the byproduct of racial diversity.

The greater the racial diversity, the greater the racial hatred in a community. Right? Isn't that we have been discovering in this noble experiment to get humankind to transcend its tribal nature?

-- Promote mono-racial societies, and you are promoting societies that are free of racial hatred.

-- Promote multi-racial societies, and you are promoting racial hatred.


The dilemma for us who support multi-culturalism is what balance do we strike between the benefits of multi-culturalism and the amount of racial hatred we can tolerate.

 

[Andem]

Hey Joseph, welcome to the forum!

I completely agree with that fact! Although I have many friends of other races (strangely, none of jewish origin). But that's a whole different topic.

K, so back to the point. Ever since racial diversity started, there has been large friction between classes and races alike. This includes hostile takeovers of communities, etc. See my thread about http://www.canadiancontent.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=503 what immigration does to a city!

 

[WulF-Krigan]

Okay, I'll weigh in here...

Backwards-ass-logic.

Racial diversity recognition programs may encourage racism. But what sort of idiot would support "racial" diversity recognition?

Let me clear up what I mean...Using RACE as a quantifier for anything is more likely to cause trouble. Why?

Marx.

Conflict occurs when there are two (or more) groups. These groups are seperated by a factor (race, religion, class) and that factor is considered important.

Support racial diversity recognition and you add to the barrier.

But what I am attacking is the name. See...RACIAL diversity is idiotic. He's black, I'm white, you're yellow. I don't need a recognition program to spell that out.

Let's focus on CULTURE. Cultural diversity is a boon. It gives perspective. And what is more...conflict between cultures is normal.

Frankly, I am increadibly suprised by the outwordly (seeming) racist attitudes of a few Canadians on this forums.

Perhaps I am being harsh in my judgements.

The point I am trying to make is that if anyone focuses on thier race/culture too greatly then they will find it rather difficult to see where the middle ground is.

But I've never known anyone to complain about something without being able to find something that they themselves aren't being biased about.

------------------------------------------------------------

To make that last statement clear I'm gonna add an arguement/question from Dan Savage.

Why is it that according to the laws of many states if a women gets drunk and has sex with a man eagerly, happily, and extaticly. And the next day wakes up and regrets it she can claim he raped her and she was unable to put up resistance because of her dihibilitated state.
But that very same court is willing to try and sentance the man regardless of wether or not he was as, if not more, drunk than she?
Is a woman's ability to be held accountable while drinking so much less than a man's in the eyes of the court?

Note: This arguement is not to endorse rape or any such activity it is merely to bring some new questions to entrenched ideas.

Eh...maybe the relevence is lost. I'm not sure.
W-K

 

[JosephMorgan]

Ever since racial diversity started, there has been large friction between classes and races alike. This includes hostile takeovers of communities

There is a trade off between the benefits of diversity, (large variety of restaurants, etc.), and the racial hatred that is the byproduct of racial diversity. The question for those who value multi-culturalism is, is there a balance to be found.

 

[WulF-Krigan]

Hatred is a human reaction. It more often than not masks a secondary reaction (emotion) in the case of racism and homophobia it is most often caused by the basic fear response.

To say multiculturism causes racism is like saying rain causes water pollution.

It's only when you add a negative view or stigma to a situation that your create tension. If multiculturism makes you angry/scared or whatever...the problem isn't other people. It's how you are choosing to deal with your emotions about these other people.

Conflict occurs when there is a division between groups and people FEEL that division is important. If you don't care if someone's a different race or culture then why is there conflict? The answer is most likely, that you DO care and are using a strategy of self-deception to maintian your self perception as a good and kind and nice person.

Find out how you feel about it and deal with those feelings before you try to make others deal with them for you. In life you can not make any other person think or feel differently...you can try to persuade but ultimately all you can do is control yourself. So deal with it.

It's easier to take the tiger out of the jungle than it is to take the jungle out of the tiger.

 

[JosephMorgan]

Hatred is a human reaction. It more often than not masks a secondary reaction (emotion) in the case of racism and homophobia it is most often caused by the basic fear response.

I agree with this. And I don't think you can un-teach hatred, only try to understand and mitigate it.

But when I hear someone say that the reason that multi-racial societies have been historically filled with racial friction is because it is something the people have learned, it sounds like politically correct thinking based upon what we would like to be true rather than hard reality.

 

[czardogs]

Re: What is the cause of racial hatred: racists or racial fr

Rarely do I agree with our american friend - WulF-Krigan but in this case I most certainly do. That is the most ass-backwards logic train I have ever had the displeasure to ride.

Segregation did not work in the 1950-60s in the southern United States. It did not work in South Africa and it is not working in Israel and Palestine.

Keep two people apart and they know nothing about eachother other than what they are told. And if they are told that all green people are theives and liars and are not to be trusted - that is what they will do. People are inheritantly very lazy by nature.

I live in one of the most racailly diverse communities in the world. Yes there are racists and bigots all thrown in with the slow-witted. But their numbers as a whole are so small they barely register. Living, working and playing together teaches people about eachother - they can find common ground. Conversation is the very root of understanding somebody.

Wulf tapped:

Frankly, I am increadibly suprised by the outwordly (seeming) racist attitudes of a few Canadians on this forums.

Perhaps I am being harsh in my judgements.

Racism is alive and well in Canada as elsewhere in the world. Canadians have had many generations to live together and to hate together. From hating the red-man because he did not want to give up his land without a fight to the chinese who stole our jobs on the railway blah blah blah.

Degenerating a man through assumption is easy - understanding and agreeing is quite another feat altogether.

Look around people and OPEN YOUR EYES we are all the same under these pigmented coats we wear.

WE ALL live on the same rock hurtling through space.

WE ALL share the same fate like it or leave it. We have no choice in all of that - that is just the way of things - accept it and move on.
8)

 

[JosephMorgan]

Re: What is the cause of racial hatred: racists or racial fr

Czar Dogs: Segregation did not work in the 1950-60s in the southern United States. It did not work in South Africa and it is not working in Israel and Palestine.

I said nothing about supporting segregation. I’m saying that we shouldn’t confuse the symptom of racism, racists, with the cause, multi-racial environments. I support multi-culturalism.

Desegregation did not end the racial hatred that exists in the South. The hatred from blacks and whites has taken a more covert form as blacks tell us wisely. The desegregation of Israel will not stop the hatred. In Zimbabwe, the end of apartheid did not end the hatred, but it did result in the ethnic cleansing of most of the whites there.

We exhort people to believe and respect multi-culturalism in America, but that doesn’t stop La Raza from advocating making the American Southwest into a Hispanic country and ethnically cleansing the gringos out.

That is why if we are to create a workable multi-cultural society we have to have an understanding of racial hatred that is not based upon multi-cultural dogma, but rather on honest, common sense observations.

 

[WulF-Krigan]

Saying that hatred can't be untaught is not correct...not in my view. See...all hatred is is a "manly" or "strong" way to manifest a person's fears. Often when you find yourself angry ask yourself why you are so pissed off.

He cut me off in trafic! That bastard! Now why does this make me so mad? Am I affraid I could have been killed? Am I fearful that there are people in the world who will not obey the social rules and as such my effort to obey the rules is diminished and if this keeps up the world will be total anarchy and like a bad Mad Max movie on the freeway!!!
(that was me trying out humor)

Fear is one of the greatest/most powerful emotion a human can experience. And in many cultures displays of fear are seen as weakness...so we as humans develope cognition stratagies to protect our fragile egos and mask our fear behind rage and hatered (and many other seemingly unrelated emotions).
More serriously though many aggressive people are actually terribly frightened. A mentality of "I'll scare you so you won't get to scare me" developes and if left unchecked the feeling of empowerment from this can turn to a "I'll hit you so you won't get to hit me". (And yes, America is a scared nation. I blame the media)

And regarding racism in the South...well, see...I have black friends who say they LIKE the south more than the north. Why? They tell me that in the south a guy will call them niger, almost on principle, but move on and that's the end of it. In the north they say alot of white people are patronizing and sweet but they can sense that they either don't like blacks or are scared of them.

Races will always have conflict...ONLY as long as people place importance upon race. I personally don't care. I have black friends, white friends, latins, dwarves, really tall people, and even a jew or two I don't choose to hang out with them because of thier race or status...I hang out with them because of the quality of thier character.

Joseph, you say you support multi-culturalism. If that's what you say I'm not gonna disbelieve you. But given that you support multiculturalism I don't see the merit of your arguement...I mean, it's a good arguement for OPPOSING multi-culturalism. But not to support it. Could you please elaberate on how your ideas will help?

 

[JosephMorgan]

Re: What is the cause of racial hatred: racists or racial fr

WulF-Krigan: Saying that hatred can't be untaught is not correct...not in my view.

Then why is racial friction a constant in multi-cultural societies now and throughout history. If the politically correct reason for the existance of racism is that it is taught, why doesn't one racially diverse society exist that does not have racial friction?

Why hasn't one society untaught it, or never had taught it?

I think human beings are tribal by nature. We see that naturally in society today. Go to any highschool campus and you'll see the different "tribes." Blacks hang out with blacks. Jocks with Jocks. Nerds with nerds. Like is attracted to like, especially in the area of race.

 

[WulF-Krigan]

Joeseph...Hate hasn't been untaught because it can't be. No more than you can unteach someone to love or be sad. Hate is an emotion. Emotions are dealt with...not unlearned.

But what I am saying is that there is nothing inherently about a black man (or whomever) that makes a man or woman of a different skin color hate them. What creates emotion is the symbolism we place behind people and ideas. Racism and national conflicts are a part of our history...so we learn about them as we grow up. But it's up to you to determine how you will let your feelings about those of other races affect you.

You can be lazy and say...black hate whites, and whites hate blacks. That's how it is and that explains why I hate blacks...but if it is indeed a tribal nature that drives humans then I'd like to know why there are multinational cultures that are not ripe with civil conflict...America had 2 "wars" over race. One was the civil war....the other was the civil rights movement. But event the staunchest racists don't act on thier feelings in America. What does that mean? It means the situation is improving...Rome wasn't built in a day and history is not easily forgotten.

But now to your other point...Blacks hang with black, jocks with jocks, nerds with nerds...why do they do this? Is it because they hate each other? Nope. It's because the similarities between the members of these groups are more visible and thus the members of the group experience less social anxiety (fear) when interacting with them.
Humans ARE indeed lazy thinking animals. We like to just see things as they are and not question them...look at the American political system for proof. And so if we experience less affect in dealing with those we perceive as akin to us we will interact with them...but see, then that interaction based on similarities grows and soon it is a culture...black culture, jock culture, and nerd culture.

Now...in the politically correct sense of multi-culturalism we are saying that we should allow people to express the views of thier culture without fear and criticsm. But this is a catch-22 as the expression of any idea opens you to critism...so let's work on eliminating the fear.

How do you do that? When you don't agree with someone's cultural views you simply nods and say...I may not agree but you have a right to your point of view. But back in the true days of racism if a groups did not like another they would kill that group. That was the rule back then...now it is the exception. And to me that -is- proof that societies are growing and adapting to the new cultures emerging.

It's all about where you put the importance of things.
If I am president and I declare all muslims are evil...will I be in conflict with just middle easterners? Or will I be in conflict with caucasian muslims as well? It's not that I said all middle eastern people are evil...just muslims...I've drawn a clear line between two groups (muslims and non-muslims) and that line is deemed important (by muslims and inherently as the leader of a nation, in this example, has stated such)...the end result will be conflict. Hopefully not violence, but conflict. And conflict is okay...it's violence that we need to stop.

If you disagree I'd like to know why...Emotion is not causality. Emotion is a REACTION to a stimulus. And we, as human beings, are the only ones who can control our reactions. Teach people that and hold them accountable and you will see people thinking alot more...blaming culture, or rap music, or violent video games for the problems of a society breeds ignorance. It's all on the individual to determine how he will act, and it is all on the rest of us to judge the individual for thier actions and hold them accountable.

 

[JosephMorgan]

Re: What is the cause of racial hatred: racists or racial fr

WulF-Krigan: But now to your other point...Blacks hang with black, jocks with jocks, nerds with nerds...why do they do this? Is it because they hate each other? Nope. It's because the similarities between the members of these groups are more visible and thus the members of the group experience less social anxiety (fear) when interacting with them.

I would not say that they would necessarily hate each other. I would say that there would be less human friction between these likes. Pro-choice people and pro-life people don’t necessarily hate each other. I would think that most could get along, could be friends, even marry each other – but the friction would still be there, and that friction can lead to extreme hatred.

The same would be true for the Jews and Palestinians. If there were not trying to share such a tiny country, the racial hatred there would not be as intense. It is the tiny space combined with an extreme amount of multi-culturalism that creates the extreme racial cruelty there.

 

[WulF-Krigan]

Okay...*considers*...I think what you are calling "friction" (are getting that term from a book or specific theory or is that your own wording?) I would call conflict.

It's simply something that is INEVITABLE in human interactions. Look at me and Czardogs But conflict is not...let me stress that...not...-not-....NOT!...a bad thing. Not inherently, conflict is only bad when we, as people, allow our feelings about the conflict override our reasoning.

Conflict is bad when we get so wrapped up in it we demonize our opposition, when we allow ourselve to buy into our own illusatory dogma because winning the conflict has become important to our ego. We must learn to put our ego and feelings aside in conflict to truely let it do what it is intended to do...help us grow as people.

Example:
Czardogs...It would be easy for me to make up little white lies in my head about him (offline habits with farm animals and all. ) It would also be easy for me to support people who argue against him because it would prove him wrong and to a part of my ego that would mean I am more right.
But what I must do is realize that on the merit of his ideas Czardogs is an intelligent person who merely does not see life from the same perspective as me. And what's more I must acknowledge that in listening to his ideas and testing them myself I grow as a human being and to me, that makes me a better person than who I was.

Friction will always be present, but that doesn't mean we should not try to learn how to minimize it and move on.
I mean, crime will never stop...does that mean we shouldn't have police?
The mail will keep coming...does that mean mailmen should stop trying to deliver it?

If something is an eventuality it should still be dealt with. And friction/conflict is and should be.
W-K

 

[czardogs]

Re: What is the cause of racial hatred: racists or racial fr

Farm animals Wulf? I thought we only did that together and were never to tell?!

For the majority of this thread we see eye to eye. I dont need to respond to the original poster because you are taking the words right out of my mouth.

Well we could always start another thread on Canadian-American relations.

 

[JosephMorgan]

Re: What is the cause of racial hatred: racists or racial fr

Wulf: I think what you are calling "friction" (are getting that term from a book or specific theory or is that your own wording?) I would call conflict.

I'm not using the term from the book. I think friction is the better term because this friction then creates the conflict. The friction alone can be tolerated. The problem is that when enough friction builds in a society and a trigger even occurs then bad things can happen.

If we are going to make multi-culturalism workable, we have to realize the dangers that can occur where racial hatred is concerned.
[/b]

 

[Shmad]

To clarify for Wulf.. rubbing two sticks together is friction, the fire would be the conflict between the two. I know its a sad sad example, but I do understand what Joesph is saying about the friction.. I've not posted because strangely... even I agree with what you've had to say

 

[JosephMorgan]

Re: What is the cause of racial hatred: racists or racial fr

Shmad: To clarify for Wulf.. rubbing two sticks together is friction, the fire would be the conflict between the two.

This is the perfect anology. Fire is the “symptom” created by the friction. If someone strikes a match and creates a fire, who or what do you blame?

 

[WulF-Krigan]

Okay...first off, by comparing conflict/violence/friction to fire you are equating it to a natural process. Sadly, after humans learned to farm the "nature" of our beings has taken a back seat to morality and rational choice. Or minds can override any predeterminite instinct so saying something is "just how humans are" is a cop out.

Now...let's look at the fire analogy again. Rubbing two sticks is "friction", fire is "conflict". So I'll ask one question. Is fire bad? I mean, someone was rubbing those sticks together for a reason. Who and why? Were they cold and wanted to benefit from the fire's warmth?

But more to my point.
What you are calling "Friction" I would call "conflict" (as in two or more people having differing ideas about a topic) as I learned to use the definition when studying sociology in college.
What you call "conflict" I would call "violence" as that seems to be the implication of the arguement.
However, I would argue that you can have conflict and not have violence if you teach people that violence is not an answer to your problems. If it where I would go around slapping people who miffed me on the sidewalk...but it's not. We each have a responsability to police our behavior with other human beings and to police our fellow human beings as well. But to say "hey this pisses SOME people off, let's trash it" is a bad idea...if we did that then MANY buisenesses would cease to be...like, oh, the entire oil industry.

Conflict is a good thing. It challenges our notions of what is and is not acceptable to us. Violence is a reaction to conflict that we must condemn and not make excuses for. And if you disagree with that I will track you down and stab you. ;p

Lastly...who benefits from keeping society in conflict? I don't know about Canada but in America I think the people who benefit are rich people.
Black people, white people, yellow people, purple people...those in power have always (historicly) stayed in power by keeping those under them in conflictr with one another.
Rich man says, "The economy is bad? Well, even though I -do- have alot of money, I would bet it's more likely that there's a hand full of people, who are probably black crack smokers, abusing the wellfare system and keeping you from getting a job."
Poor man says, "Yeah? So if I go get them black fellas then the economy will be good!"
Rich man, "Yup. Go get them."
Poor man, "Alright!"
Then rich man goes to poor black man, "You know those white people only hate you because they feel guilty for slavery. I wouldn't let thier guilt and fear of you make me feel bad. Stand up to them. Do whatever you need to do!"
Poor black man, "Yeah? Yeah! I'm not gonna suffer to make those white people feel better."
Rich man, "You shouldn't. Teach them a lesson!"
Poor black man, "I will!"
Mean while richman is lining his pockets and profiting off of the missery of the lower classes. They did it in England, France, pre-bulshavik Russia, and most evey nation...the end result is revolution once the masses catch on. Democracy makes it harder to prove who you to overthrow...so you get a confused and disillusioned society that is ruled over by corperations via financial influence of political candidates.

It sucks.
But think for yourself. Decide if you REALLY have a problem with living by someone who has a different culture than you...if so, then ask yourself how can you work with them to get a situation you can live with. Railing against it and argueing how it's "nature" to make you feel better is masking hatred and biggotry...wether you are aware of it or not. And while in making the arguement you may not be a hateful biggot...you might give just enough justification to the mind of someone who is to turn his feelings of frustration into violence.
Think about it.
W-K