Why we need this law to ensure all the guarantees necessary for our defence.

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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Ottawa, ON
Why we need this law to ensure all the guarantees necessary for our defence.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 11 (1) states:

"Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence."

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Section 11 (d) states:

"Any person charged with an offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal."

All police officers in Canada (which would include those of CBSA and other similar special departments) should be legally obligated to offer a suspect to collect fingerprint, DNA, blood, photographic, electronic, or other evidence and then collect such proof for processing at the suspect's request or explain in writing to be presented in a public trial why he chose not to do so prior to detention in the case of a non-violent offence and immediately after detention in the case of a violent offence.

I understand that since the state is obligated to prove his guilt, its failing to collect such proof would only make it more difficult for it to do so, thus increasing the likelihood of his being legally found not guilty. That's fine from a strictly legal standpoint, but what about the court of public opinion or of the accused's family and friends which can impose a punishment of its own?

For this reason, regardless of there being no need to prove an accused's innocence for legal reasons as long as guilt can't be reasonably proved, the police should be obligated to give an accused the chance to eliminate suspicion in the court of people's minds too. A person should even be allowed to sue the police for failing to offer to collect such proof and then collecting it or explaining in writing why it did not do so. The police should consider not only the legal ramifications of any charge made against a person but also the social ramifications beyond the law.

In principle, the police is already required to collect evidence that could eliminate a person as a suspect, but its failing to do so imposes no consequence on the police beyond its inability to prove a person's guilt at a public trial. What I am proposing is that failing to offer to collect evidence that the suspect might want collected without a good reason to not do so would allow a detainee to then sue the police for not having given him a chance to prove his innocence.

To take an example:

A woman goes to visit a friend out of concern that her friend might suffer gambling addiction and worries that something is not right. The police arrive and accuse all of the women in the house of working in Canada as sex workers without proper authorization and detain them for deportation.

We can imagine that had the police offered to collect proof at the women's request, the innocent party would ask the police to collect DNA from any used condom, pillowcase, or bed sheet that might be found in any room, fingerprints from unopened condom wrappers or boxes and money in the house, a written statement from any accused client in the house, and her cell phone and e-mail record.

Because the police neither collected nor offered to collect evidence which could have conclusively proved her innocence beyond reasonable doubt, she is found not guilty at a hearing due to lack of evidence but is unable to prove her innocence. The legal consequence of being found not guilty due to lack of evidence is the same as that of being found innocent, but the social consequence might not be. Due to her inability to prove her innocence due to lack of evidence, her fiancé, aware of the charge made against her, is left wondering about her.

I'm sure we can imagine many other examples in which a charge of which we can not prove our innocence could have social consequences beyond the law. Imagine being unable to prove your innocence of a charge of sexual abuse of a child, of rape, or other such charges. I know that for me, to be found not guilty due to lack of evidence would certainly not be enough; and given how proving innocence is already more difficult to do than proving guilt in the best of circumstances, imagine if the police does not even collect the evidence that could help us to do so.

What are your thoughts on this? Should the police be legally obligated to offer to collect any specific evidence at a suspect's request and then collect it as requested or explain in writing why they did not collect it, with the suspect being able to sue the police for having failed to do so should he be found not guilty due to lack of evidence but unable to prove his innocence as a result of the police's failure to have offered to collect evidence at his request?
 

personal touch

House Member
Sep 17, 2014
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alberta/B.C.
the police do what they want,when the want, to what ever they want to,police have been messing with the laws of this land as far back as history permits,they don't need laws,rules or courts to tell them what to do,they do as they please.this i know because of the stories i hear from my good law enforcement friends
the problem with Canada,is our weak,indifferent lawyers who are suppose to hold the laws and the constitution to account,and bring back law enforcement to correction,lawyers spend more time establishing recipical agreements,rather then balancing the scales of justice.
Canada lacks good Constitutional Lawyers,the courts are riddled with wh oring justices,where one lives in Canada will dictate the methods and means of recipical agreements.

If needed, I can example how Justices are wh ored through the information process,I followed the wh oring to the supreme court with the Mayerthorpe 4 slaughter........it all starts with a good foundation of information manipulation and by the time it gets to the supreme court ...it is as easy as pie to wh ore a Justice..........this case hoodwinked with supreme court,and of course this is what the Justice prefer.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
Technically, an accused is not required to prove their innocence. It is up to the Crown to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal trial. Why would we want to complicate things further by now having to prove innocence. This now puts the onus on the accused.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Sorry Gerryh. Maybe I didn't explain myself well. Of course it's up to the Cort to prove my guilt to put me in jail, but I may want to prove my innocence of a charge to go beyond just not going to jail so as to also clear my name in the minds of family, friends, and the public. Certain charges, whether of selling or paying for sex, rape, or worse yet child sexual abuse carry a certain stigma independently of a finding of 'not guilty.' In such cases, not collecting sufficient proof to prove innocence could impose social consequences beyond the law. In a sense, making such a charge while failing to collect evidence amounts to defamation of character.
 

tay

Hall of Fame Member
May 20, 2012
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Sorry Gerryh. Maybe I didn't explain myself well. Of course it's up to the Cort to prove my guilt to put me in jail, but I may want to prove my innocence of a charge to go beyond just not going to jail so as to also clear my name in the minds of family, friends, and the public. Certain charges, whether of selling or paying for sex, rape, or worse yet child sexual abuse carry a certain stigma independently of a finding of 'not guilty.' In such cases, not collecting sufficient proof to prove innocence could impose social consequences beyond the law. In a sense, making such a charge while failing to collect evidence amounts to defamation of character.







If you are found 'not guilty' does the reason why such as the authorities 'not collecting sufficient proof' matter to those people you feel will scorn you?


They will either accept your not guilty verdict as complete, or view you as having gotten away with something which they would only do if they have some reason to suspect you..............

If you are found 'not guilty' does the reason why such as the authorities 'not collecting sufficient proof' matter to those people you feel will scorn you?


They will either accept your not guilty verdict as complete, or view you as having gotten away with something which they would only do if they have some reason to suspect you..............







Here is a story about a law called 'Felony Murder Rule'






Several years ago I read a piece in The New York Times by Adam Liptak about Ryan Holle. Ryan, who had no prior record, is serving a life sentence with no chance of parole in Florida. He was convicted of pre-meditated murder, even though no one, including the prosecutor, disputes that Ryan was asleep in his bed at home at the time of the crime.


This could only happen in America, because we are the only country that retains the Felony Murder Rule. What the Felony Murder Rule essentially says is if anyone has anything to do with a felony in which a murder takes place, such as a robbery, that person is as guilty as the person who has committed the murder. Every other country including England, India and Canada has gotten rid of it because of its unintended consequences.


The Canadian Supreme Court ruled, when they discarded the Felony Murder Rule, that a person should be held responsible for his own actions not the actions of others.


Exactly what did Ryan Holle do? At a party in his apartment over ten years ago, he lent his car to his roommate and went to sleep. He had lent his car to his roommate many times before with no negative consequences. This time the roommate and others went to a house where they knew a woman was selling marijuana from a safe. They planned to get the marijuana, but in the course of their break-in a teenage girl was killed. Those at the scene all received appropriately harsh sentences, but so did Ryan Holle.


Ryan, who was first offered a plea deal of ten years but chose to go to trial. I’m sure it was difficult for a young man, who had never been arrested, and who believed he had done nothing to accept that he should go to prison for ten years, so he went to trial, was convicted and sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole. He is now in his eleventh year of incarceration. Again, this is a young man who was home asleep in bed at the time of the crime. I personally know of no other felony murder conviction where the person was not even present, and the pre-meditated part of the conviction suggests that Ryan knew his car was going to be used in the course of a murder, which to me, isn’t credible.


To the best of my knowledge, in the entire history of the criminal justice system in America, no one has ever been convicted and sentenced to life in prison for loaning a car and going to sleep.


Ryan writes me from prison telling me that when he gets out, he plans to speak out against the Felony Murder Rule. Unless people of good will and common sense publicize his case, Ryan Holle will die in prison.




more




How Lending A Friend Your Car, Then Going to Bed Can Land You a Life Prison Sentence | Alternet
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
Sorry Gerryh. Maybe I didn't explain myself well. Of course it's up to the Cort to prove my guilt to put me in jail, but I may want to prove my innocence of a charge to go beyond just not going to jail so as to also clear my name in the minds of family, friends, and the public. Certain charges, whether of selling or paying for sex, rape, or worse yet child sexual abuse carry a certain stigma independently of a finding of 'not guilty.' In such cases, not collecting sufficient proof to prove innocence could impose social consequences beyond the law. In a sense, making such a charge while failing to collect evidence amounts to defamation of character.


The law states that one is innocent until proven guilty. Why would you need to prove what is already a fact?

Public opinion? It would matter not what you came up with, those that felt you were guilty, regardless of the out come, would still feel you were guilty, regardless of what you "proved". You do have the option of suing the state and their agents for malicious prosecution. Have fun proving it.

This is just another example of you trying to waste taxpayers money.