Maybe they have FTL capability

[Cobalt_Kid]

Canada will be spending $288 million on designing arctic patrol ships that are based on the Norwegian Svalbard that we have already paid $5 millions for the plans of. There's no real explanation on why the cost is so high when it costs much less for other countries to build entire ships.

Shipbuilding contract holds $250M mystery - Politics - CBC News

The Norwegian ship, the Svalbard, was designed and built for less than $100 million in 2002.

Another country with Arctic interests, Denmark, acquired two patrol ships for $105 million in 2007.

The Irish navy now is building two offshore patrol ships for $125 million.

The ministers in charge are unable to say why the design cost is so high.

Ambrose, MacKay and Public Works officials running the Canadian project were not able to explain why Canada would pay so much more to get so much less: shelling out more than twice as much merely to produce a blueprint for similar ships, without building any.

In an interview, Ambrose referred the CBC to her officials for details. But those officials, in a prepared briefing for CBC News, said they were unable to provide details on where, exactly, the $288 million is going.

CBC News also asked MacKay to explain why Canada would pay Irving 10 times as much for the design as other shipyards say it should cost.

MacKay replied "other shipyards are wrong," and left it at that.

According to MacKay other shipyards are wrong although they're able to deliver ships at less than the design cost of Canada's new vessels.

The design cost should be a small fraction of what it actually is.

Another source with long experience in building combat ships said of the Irving design contract, "the numbers are staggering.… There is no rhyme or reason for such a vast amount of money, especially not without clarity" on where it's all going.

He said $10-15 million would be a reasonable amount, not $288 million.

According to Rona Ambrose;

As minister in charge of the procurement, Ambrose noted that the new ships are complex, although she did not identify any features that were more costly to design than those in other navies.

My theory is that using superior conservative science the government has made significant technological breakthroughs that will give our new ships Faster Than Light capability, otherwise, why would they cost so much merely to design?

Another theory I have is Peter MacKay just gave the Irving family an over 1/4 billion dollar gift, he's so thoughtful to his friends...I hope he gets a card.

They all look so happy giving away our money.

Irving Shipbuilding - News

It's going to be really good for other countries also who will be doing the actual design work.

Offshore patrol ships mean offshore jobs

Another criticism of the project is that much of the design work – in a project meant to create Canadian jobs – is actually going overseas.

Although Irving will manage the design project in Nova Scotia, it has subcontracted the actual production of final blueprints to a Danish firm, OMT. Seventy Danish ship architects will work on those.

The job of designing the systems integration is going to Lockheed Martin and the propulsion system will be designed by General Electric, both U.S. companies.

This is only to be expected, say supporters of the project.

 

[petros]

There's no real explanation on why the cost is so high when it costs much less for other countries to build entire ships.

Stronger, beefier, ice resistant hulls since Global Warming died.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

So Irving will probably be taking a "modest" slice of the overall $288 million, say $268 million and spend the rest on having foreign experts redesign a ship we already bought the original design from.

In case they don't really have FTL, wouldn't it have been a whole lot cheaper to have the ships built where the costs are about 1/2 per ship as the amount we're now paying to "re-design" them?

Also according to MacKay spending $3 billion on one ship would be worth it, now that's value for money spent, other nations spend around $100 million for ships of similar capability and Peter MacKay is willing to spend $3 billion, interesting figure that, it keeps showing up.

The design contract is supposed to produce a final price for the actual ships. Until then, the government says it doesn't know how many ships it can buy for its $3-billion budget.

But even one ship would be worth it, MacKay said in announcing the design contract March 7.

"This is a new capability," he said. "So if we have only one more ship, that would be one more than we have now in terms of our ability to provide this kind of capability and Arctic coverage."

Stronger, beefier, ice resistant hulls since Global Warming died.

Maybe in the backwards science world you seem to occupy.

Rate of Arctic summer sea ice loss is 50% higher than predicted | Environment | The Observer

This rate of loss is 50% higher than most scenarios outlined by polar scientists and suggests that global warming, triggered by rising greenhouse gas emissions, is beginning to have a major impact on the region. In a few years the Arctic ocean could be free of ice in summer, triggering a rush to exploit its fish stocks, oil, minerals and sea routes.

Using instruments on earlier satellites, scientists could see that the area covered by summer sea ice in the Arctic has been dwindling rapidly. But the new measurements indicate that this ice has been thinning dramatically at the same time. For example, in regions north of Canada and Greenland, where ice thickness regularly stayed at around five to six metres in summer a decade ago, levels have dropped to one to three metres.

I know you like to base your views on politically generated "science", but I'm going to stick to the evidence based variety, I'm kind of a traditionalist that way.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

It would have been nice to see Peter MacKay do more than dodge the questions of Evin Solomon during the interview.

Why is it that entire ships that cost between $80-$100 million when built in Europe cost $288 million to redesign for Canada, and why is the work being done in Europe and the US when the intent was to rebuild the Canadian shipbuilding industry. There's something seriously wrong here and Peter MacKay is either totally out to lunch on what's happened to over $250 million or he's being dishonest about taxpayer money that is going to someone it shouldn't.

 

[Nuggler]

It would have been nice to see Peter MacKay do more than dodge the questions of Evin Solomon during the interview.

Why is it that entire ships that cost between $80-$100 million when built in Europe cost $288 million to redesign for Canada, and why is the work being done in Europe and the US when the intent was to rebuild the Canadian shipbuilding industry. There's something seriously wrong here and Peter MacKay is either totally out to lunch on what's happened to over $250 million or he's being dishonest about taxpayer money that is going to someone it shouldn't.

Helicopter MacKay wouldn't do anything untoward.

He's been promoted to pork barrel acquisition. I'm sure he'll do well.

Pretty sick making ain't it.

 

[petros]

Maybe in the backwards science world you seem to occupy.

Rate of Arctic summer sea ice loss is 50% higher than predicted | Environment | The Observer



I know you like to base your views on politically generated "science", but I'm going to stick to the evidence based variety, I'm kind of a traditionalist that way.

YOu have some special machine that will prevent in inevitable continental glaciation that is rapidly approaching?

How is the sea ice doing this spring? You know, the coldest spring in 200 years we just went through.

How did that happen?

When are the oceans going to warm up enough so it rains again in California and in the Mid West from the Dakotahs down to the Gulf?


Explain in detail why these things are happening.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

YOu have some special machine that will prevent in inevitable continental glaciation that is rapidly approaching?

How is the sea ice doing this spring? You know, the coldest spring in 200 years we just went through.

How did that happen?

When are the oceans going to warm up enough so it rains again in California and in the Mid West from the Dakotahs down to the Gulf?


Explain in detail why these things are happening.

How should I know, it probably has something to do with the fact that the massive sea ice cover in the Arctic is largely gone now.

Arctic sea ice extent settles at record seasonal minimum | Arctic Sea Ice News and Analysis

On September 16, Arctic sea ice appeared to have reached its minimum extent for the year of 3.41 million square kilometers (1.32 million square miles). This is the lowest seasonal minimum extent in the satellite record since 1979 and reinforces the long-term downward trend in Arctic ice extent. The sea ice extent will now begin its seasonal increase through autumn and winter.

We seem to be experiencing the reverse situation of last fall when we went directly from summer conditions that persisted right into early October into winter. Last week we had snow and freezing temperatures, this week it's shirtsleeves weather.

Fundamentally changing something that has such an effect on northern weather patterns as the Arctic sea ice seems to have created a whole new pattern. Get used to it, it's called climate change for a reason, and if you'd spent any time at all learning the details you'd understand that it's not smooth and linear, it can be very irregular and chaotic.

This article links changes in the Jet Stream due to the loss of sea ice with the harsh winter here.

https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/03/25-7

She goes on to explain that the rapid decline in sea ice is what is affecting the jet stream and leading to the extreme weather currently being experienced in the mid-latitudes.

"It allows the cold air from the Arctic to plunge much further south. The pattern can be slow to change because the [southern] wave of the jet stream is getting bigger. It's now at a near record position, so whatever weather you have now is going to stick around."

Adding to her assertion, in a report published earlier this month in the Proceedings in the National Academy of Scientists, researchers confirm that global-warming induced sea ice loss is causing changes in the "winter Northern Hemisphere atmospheric circulation," including the jet stream, which allows cold Arctic air to reach further south and causes "more frequent episodes of blocking patterns that lead to increased cold surges over large parts of northern continents."

 

[petros]

How should I know, it probably has something to do with the fact that the massive sea ice cover in the Arctic is largely gone now.

Why don't you know? How can you spew one sided crap without having the reality to back it up? It's gone? Really? So where did it go? Where is all the water?

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Why don't you know? How can you spew one sided crap without having the reality to back it up? It's gone? Really? So where did it go? Where is all the water?

I know the ice is gone, direct and indirect measurements show that Arctic sea ice coverage was at it's lowest recorded extent last year.

What I don't know and no one can till it happens is what this is going to mean for something as complex as weather patterns.

I already posted an article above on how scientists are already looking at a link between decreased sea ice coverage and a shift in the jet stream that is pulling cold Arctic winter air further south and keeping it
there longer.

If you want to keep discussing this I started a thread here:

Scientists link harsh winter to dramatic decline in Arctic Sea Ice

 

[petros]

It's gone? Where did it go? Where is the water?

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

It's gone? Where did it go? Where is the water?

Ice melts into water, which I assume you already knew. And the water is re-distributed by currents, so it could many places.

 

[Goober]

CK You are late and short money agin.
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/news/115546-shipbuilding-contract-holds-250m-mystery.html

 

[tay]

In the water or in the air, Harperites have money to spare............

Ya but .. but, but, but ..



Feds blew $125 million on Obama's used choppers ??


Some helicopters from U.S. President Barack Obama's cast-off fleet may yet find their way into the service of the Royal Canadian Air Force.

The Canadian Press has learned Defence Minister Peter MacKay recently ordered National Defence to take another look at whether some of the nine VH-71 aircraft — purchased for spare parts to keep this country's search-and-rescue choppers flying — can be made fully operational.

MacKay plans to tour the hangar, at IMP Aerospace in Nova Scotia, where the discarded presidential fleet has been housed since the Harper government spent $164 million to acquire it from the Pentagon.

Both the air force and the department's material branch have insisted the American helicopters were only suitable for spares because they do not have an air worthiness certificate, nor an electronics suite for search and rescue.

But MacKay, in an interview with The Canadian Press, says he's ordered a review to see what sort of work would be needed to bring as many as four of them on to the flight line.


MacKay looks to give presidential choppers a 2nd life - Canada - CBC News

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

There's been ongoing problems with keeping the Cormorants flying from the start of the Harper government, what does it take to get effective action?

Parts shortage grounds 3 Comox Cormorants

Two of the Cormorant helicopters at Canadian Forces Base Comox have been sidelined because of the parts issue. A third Cormorant is also not flying since technicians have been stripping parts off that aircraft to keep the base's two working Cormorants airborne.

At one point, the Comox base had only one working Cormorant. Aircraft from the base handle search and rescue on the coast and in the Rocky Mountains.

The lack of choppers has also hindered the training of pilots since spare Cormorants have not been available for use on practice missions. Some pilot trainees have not flown since Oct. 19.

In the case of some of the needed Cormorant parts, existing components could be serviced and used by maintenance staff in Comox, but they are prevented from doing so by a contract the Defence Department signed with the private company doing the in-service support for the choppers.

Instead, maintenance crews are required to send the part away for replacement, a process which causes lengthy delays.

Irving says ship contract comparisons 'apples and oranges' - Politics - CBC News

I don't see how the Norwegians can build a Svalbard class patrol ship, which is what the Canadian patrol ships will be based on, for one third of what we're already paying for a "definition" whatever the hell that is.

The Irving CEO goes into some elaborate song and dance about how we'll have to design every compartment but isn't that exactly what other nations do when they design ships. I doubt the Norwegians just got together on a weekend and decided how to build the Svalbard over a few beers. They probably used the computer aided design techniques that have been around for decades and did so and produced a ship for about a third of what the Harper government is going to spend on "defining" what the ship will do.

Here's a few clues, if it's a ship it will probably need to float, if it works in the Arctic it will probably need a strengthened hull and if it has crew it will need accommodations. These are things that have been factors since ships have been used in Arctic waters, and if other nations can do it for a tiny fraction of what our government pays then we're being ripped off either intentionally or through sheer incompetence, going by the record of the Harper government so far I'd say they are both likely.

There's no evidence that Irving can build ships efficiently and yet the company will be getting a very large fortune over the next few decades. There's almost no fiscal responsibility being shown here, some people go on and on about the long arm registry, but this is going to be more than ten times that cost and for no guaranteed result.

Ottawa announces $288-million deal to kick-start design of Arctic patrol ships | Canadian Politics | Canada | News | National Post

In October 2011, the federal government awarded the Irving shipyard a $25-billion deal to build 21 combat vessels in all. Seaspan Marine Corp. of Vancouver is to build seven vessels under an $8-billion contract for non-combat ships. A contract for another $2 billion for smaller vessels is yet to be awarded.

How Harper does love to spend our money like it really belongs to him, I guess we really are living in "Harper Canada" now.

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