Special rights for certain groups in Canada


Andem
Free Thinker
+5
#1
I got involved in a discussion today on a Facebook thread which I didn't really intend. In a word, it was a bunch of women demanding special rights in terms of paygrade, job opportunities and the like.

I have no problem at all with a woman in a position of power and I see nothing wrong with anybody who is qualified to earn a decent living and whom obtained the position on their own merit. What I do have a problem with is a person becoming employed based on race or sex quotas imposed by a government, regulations, legislation, backroom deals or worse... that ruins the market economy which provides the western world with their freedoms and democracy.

I'm finally getting involved in politics over here in Europe and an unelected commission (a part of the European Union) has been attempting to force quotas across the continent not based on merit, but based on sex. My partner's university (who is a professor) currently has over 10 highly paid employees which do nothing more than interfere with the hiring process and "vote against" any male candidate who is applying for an administrative job, a temporary teaching job or for tenure. The amazing thing about this is that none of them are qualified themselves to judge whether an applicant would be a worthy candidate.

I am very aware that Canada's public sector jobs have become very easy for some to obtain and next to impossible for others, regardless of ability and experience. The United States has benefited greatly from these policies in the form of brain drain in many sectors, both public and private.

There is a very large amount of inequality in Canada disguised as equality.

What does the membership here think about special rights for certain groups? A very different question than discrimination against certain groups.

Does anybody find it right to put a fully qualified candidate out to grass while the less-qualified candidate gets the job based on their race, sex, sexual orientation, height, weight or religion?
 
CDNBear
+1
#2
Quote: Originally Posted by AndemView Post

What does the membership here think about special rights for certain groups?

depends on whether or not they were negotiated for.

Quote:

Does anybody find it right to put a fully qualified candidate out to grass while the less-qualified candidate gets the job based on their race, sex, sexual orientation, height, weight or religion?

No one rational would.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
+6
#3  Top Rated Post
To me qualifications are qualifications regardless of anything like gender, skin color, age, etc. And I don't believe in quotas just for the sake of APPEARING to be egalitarian.
Interesting that you mention unqualified people deciding who is qualified for the jobs.
Reeks of PC-ness
 
spaminator
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by AndemView Post

I have no problem at all with a woman in a position of power

I guess you've never been bossed around by women.
 
Andem
Free Thinker
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

depends on whether or not they were negotiated for.

These are not the special rights I am talking about, and they have an entirely different legal basis so let's keep that out of this thread.

Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

Interesting that you mention unqualified people deciding who is qualified for the jobs.
Reeks of PC-ness

Since public universities here in Germany are publicly funded, it is very characteristic of a western government to have these types of highly-paid people in such positions. It is very real and not a figment of my imagination. (My partner is currently heading the hiring committee for new professors, so I get to hear about the shenanigans every Tuesday evening).
Last edited by Andem; Mar 8th, 2013 at 05:30 PM..Reason: Clarification
 
CDNBear
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by AndemView Post

These are not the special rights I am talking about, and they have an entirely different legal basis so let's keep that out of this thread.

No problem, just answering your question honestly.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#7
heheh The EU wants more women to work? Train more to do the work, don't just fill in the positions.

Quote: Originally Posted by AndemView Post

Since public universities here in Germany are publicly funded, it is very characteristic of a western government to have these types of highly-paid people in such positions. It is very real and not a figment of my imagination. (My partner is currently heading the hiring committee for new professors, so I get to hear about the shenanigans every Tuesday evening).

That will undoubtedly have a negative effect on the EU's future performance (in quite a few areas such as economics and academics) in comparison to other regions. Foolsplay at its best.
 
karrie
No Party Affiliation
+1
#8
To my understanding, the only time you are supposed to choose based on gender here, is when applicants are equally qualified, not when one is less qualified. This attempts to address some of the gender inequality in work forces, without creating a new set of discriminatory practices. I know hubby's company pushes for gender to break the tie, but only when applicants are truly tied in qualifications.
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
+1
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by AndemView Post

What does the membership here think about special rights for certain groups? A very different question than discrimination against certain groups.

Does anybody find it right to put a fully qualified candidate out to grass while the less-qualified candidate gets the job based on their race, sex, sexual orientation, height, weight or religion?

No I don't think it's right. It's unfair. The intentions behind it may be laudable but in practice I'm not sure that it ever really and truly achieves the goals it sets out to achieve.

On the one hand for those individuals who have worked to gain the qualifications, it's incredibly demotivational. Why bother to work hard when it doesn't matter in the end anyway? But even for those who for whom it supposedly benefits, I believe it's harmful because you end up with unqualified individuals, or poorly qualified ones, attempting to do a job that is above or beyond their skill level.

I get the idea behind it, to have certain areas, industries and positions in society be more reflective of the broad cross section of society. As I said, that's laudable. But I feel like that would be better achieved by putting the focus on incentives towards individuals from these underrepresented groups to achieve the necessary skills so that they may compete on even footing.

That's my take on it.
 
Andem
Free Thinker
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

That will undoubtedly have a negative effect on the EU's future performance

The EU is all but done. It has such a resemblance to the U.S.S.R. that you might even giggle for a second. In fact, the unelected president of the European Commission

is a quotformerquot Maoist

and wait for it... his deputy vice president WAS a member of the Supreme Council of the Soviet Union. The policies here in the EU are essentially not voted for and like any other failed socialist state, has no clear mandate, accountability or removal mechanism.

Over here, the special rights rules they are pushing through are nothing more than a way to create more jobs in the commission and to appear as if they are progressive -- winning over the female vote. So nothing new there.
 
Tonington
+2
#11
In Canada there is another level that comes before you even get out of school. The job market is tight these days, and most people won't get into their field without some experience before graduation. At my school there were job notices on the bulletin boards, and nearly all of them being in science positions were funded by some government entity. Those jobs always made special mention of gender at a minimum, as well as others. It was discouraging.

But I've also heard from women in industry how hard it can be to get positions. As an example, I know of an old Veterinarian who did not like to hire women because, in his words, they would get pregnant soon after graduation, and he didn't like having to find temporary replacements.

As long as there are dumbasses like that, it makes it hard for guys like me because the natural policy decision from a political point of view is to over-react and put in place these types of policies like those that discouraged me. In the end I had an employment offer before I left school, and it's worked out well. But I have friends who were not as fortunate. Maybe they don't interview well? Hard to say. I'm not sure there's an easy answer.

And both examples I mentioned are forms of discrimination.
 
Andem
Free Thinker
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

As long as there are dumbasses like that, it makes it hard for guys like me because the natural policy decision from a political point of view is to over-react

Take a look on the other side of the coin. I worked for a company in Montréal that everybody here has heard of where it was easier to get hired in certain departments as a female... and two of three with the final say were female.

In other departments, more than 70% were female employees (with jobs normally dominated by males).
 
Spade
Free Thinker
#13
There should be no special allowances made for men who struggle in academe.
 
Tonington
+3
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by AndemView Post

Take a look on the other side of the coin.

I did...I mentioned the difficulty in getting relevant industry experience during my undergrad. I did landscaping in Alberta for two summers instead of working in my field. Though my jobs paid better

Quote:

In other departments, more than 70% were female employees (with jobs normally dominated by males).

Have you looked at the enrollment in university? More women than men these days; it stands to reason at some point they would overtake men in roles formerly dominated by men.
 
Spade
Free Thinker
#15
New research helps explain why girls do better in school
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
+2
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

Have you looked at the enrollment in university? More women than men these days; it stands to reason at some point they would overtake men in roles formerly dominated by men.

A result, I'm sure, of decades of encouraging our daughters to pursue a higher education. At least the qualifications shouldn't be lacking and the "glass ceiling" will be for certain a thing of the past. That's not a bad thing.

Restricting applicants based on their gender is a bad thing.

And if male attendance at post-secondary is down, should we now be doing more to encourage our sons to pursue higher education?
 
Spade
Free Thinker
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post


And if male attendance at post-secondary is down, should we now be doing more to encourage our sons to pursue higher education?


Are you advocating special privilege?
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
+2
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

Are you advocating special privilege?

No, how would I be doing that? Is making a concerted effort towards a youth group that may be underrepresented, be they grouped by gender or race, and encouraging them to take future opportunities to better themselves affording them a privilege? Opportunities that already exist I'm talking about, like higher education.
 
Andem
Free Thinker
+1
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

Are you advocating special privilege?

Encouraging and providing exclusive benefits for are not synonymous.
 
Spade
Free Thinker
#20
What about helping men qualify for medical school?
Women doctors will outnumber men within a decade: research - Telegraph
 
Spade
Free Thinker
+1
#21
Competition is too stiff right now. Give men a leg up?
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
+1
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

Competition is too stiff right now. Give men a leg up?

No. If we are looking at a shortage of male representation in the field of medicine, how I would advocate society attempting to correct that would be to encourage youth, pre-med school or pre-university, to pursue the skills and course materials necessary to provide them equal access in the application process to medical school. And to be clear, in absolutely no way should gender be a consideration for enrollment. That way, regardless of gender, we can be better assured that those individuals who will become our future doctors will be the best qualified for the job.
 
Andem
Free Thinker
+1
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

What about helping men qualify for medical school?
Women doctors will outnumber men within a decade: research - Telegraph

You bring up a very controversial, though relevant topic: Will employed female doctors outnumber employed male doctors?

I can't speak for Canada, but in Germany several people I know (a couple close friends) are medical doctors. Some better than others. The better ones are employed because of their skills and their paycheques show, while the others (sadly to say) have a job because there is a shortage in the profession.

Before anybody goes mad, I'm not inferring that female practitioners are incompetent, I'm merely exploring the possibility that PERHAPS some of them got through med school because they were female under this new PC madness.
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#24
Andem- Perhaps some links would assist in understanding the differences between EU and Canada.
But this committee with those types on it reminds me of the good old USSR.
 
gerryh
+4
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

But this committee with those types on it reminds me of the good old USSR.


Maybe they aren't dead. Maybe the falling of the Berlin wall was all part of a Soviet master plan to take over Europe on the sly. Right under everyone's nose.
 
Goober
Free Thinker
+1
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Maybe they aren't dead. Maybe the falling of the Berlin wall was all part of a Soviet master plan to take over Europe on the sly. Right under everyone's nose.

The EU can come up with some really off the wall polices. Strasbourg is infested with idiots.
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
+1
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by AndemView Post

You bring up a very controversial, though relevant topic: Will employed female doctors outnumber employed male doctors?

I can't speak for Canada, but in Germany several people I know (a couple close friends) are medical doctors. Some better than others. The better ones are employed because of their skills and their paycheques show, while the others (sadly to say) have a job because there is a shortage in the profession.

Before anybody goes mad, I'm not inferring that female practitioners are incompetent, I'm merely exploring the possibility that PERHAPS some of them got through med school because they were female under this new PC madness.

Well and that is the very legitimate fear when qualifications are deemed less important than special interest groups. I would like to think that the educational system would still weed out poor contenders, I would like to think that even though gender may have been a consideration for acceptance to the school these young women were adequately qualified anyway, but the fact is that I don't know that. And that's the point, we can't know that, we can't have faith in the standards.

The standards have to come first or else society will be poorer in the long run.
 
Spade
Free Thinker
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by AndemView Post


Before anybody goes mad, I'm not inferring that female practitioners are incompetent, I'm merely exploring the possibility that PERHAPS some of them got through med school because they were female under this new PC madness.

Not so; it is because they are better qualified academically.

And, from medicine to law.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/26/business/women-are-close-to-being-majority-of-law-students.html

And from law, it is a short step topolitics. The glass ceiling is showing its cracks.
Six premiers of provinces/territories in Canada are women.
 
Andem
Free Thinker
+2
#29
I also wanted to add: There is or was also an over-representation of "white" male medical doctors, but currently universities which are both publicly and privately funded are under legislation (or political threats, depending on province and region) to not accept any more "white" male students, regardless of qualifying criteria. The most extreme (high) grades are the only exception in most cases.

Well on that topic, I've been pretty sick before living in Toronto on private insurance where the doctors (both of foreign extraction) vehemently refused to subscribe generic alternatives to very expensive non-penicillin antibiotics. They no doubt made most of their living off of pharmaceutical deals (and yes, cash compensation isn't necessary).

Quote:

Not so; it is because they are better qualified academically.

I'm not willing to explore your citation. The New York Times is not the most trustworthy source in my books. In addition, academic credentials are not necessarily something I always trust, especially since a lot of of my colleagues are idiots, yet hold doctorates with no substance. As mentioned in my OP, I am very aware of the corruption within academic circles

But I will entertain your comment: If they are more qualified for the job, then they deserve the job. In the end, the markets ALWAYS decide if they are given the freedom and chance to. No bloated government should be able to decide for the market.

Quote:

And from law, it is a short step topolitics. The glass ceiling is showing its cracks.
Six premiers of provinces/territories in Canada are women.

Unfortunately, there is no sign of change. So are women as good as, or as bad as men? Or did they receive their mandate through an open and democratic process in which they will be able to prove themselves? Is the system of free choice without outside interference really so bad?

Let's cut the BS! We're all products of the human race which has many, many flaws. Women, men, gay, straight.
 
Goober
Free Thinker
+1
#30
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