Freeman creating policing problems here too


Locutus
#1
An anti-government movement known as Freeman on the Land has become a “major policing problem” in several provinces, according to a threat assessment by Canada’s spy officials.

The report by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service lists Freeman members among “domestic extremists” who associate with issue-based causes, such as environmentalism, anti-capitalism, anti-globalization and far-right racism.

Its adherents fall on both the left and right wings of the political spectrum, but “at the core” of the movement is the belief that “government operates outside of its legal jurisdiction and therefore Freeman members do not recognize the authority of national, provincial, or municipal laws, policies or regulations,” says the report, titled Canada: Biannual Update on Terrorist and Extremist Threats, which was prepared in April and released under federal access-to-information laws.

“Freeman members now constitute a major policing problem in several provinces and have occasionally engaged in acts of violence against the police,” the report states.

In various videos posted online, supporters of the Freeman movement in Canada – including outspoken advocate Robert Menard – reject any association with violent extremism and insist they are “peaceful and loving.”

Law enforcement officials are not convinced.


Follow Freeman!


Freeman on the Land movement creates (external - login to view)
 
Most helpful post: The members here have rated this post as best reply.
Ron in Regina
Free Thinker
+3
#2
I know one out here...living off the radar in his own mind. No drivers license, working
under the table or with alternate sources of income the gov't doesn't track, ect...yet
has no issue driving his unregistered (=uninsured) vehicle on the city streets.

Claims doesn't pay tax's, but still shops in the same stores as anyone else so is pay'n
the GST & PST & Luxury Tax's on his booze & fuel like we do. Lots of wacky theories,
and many I can see coming to bite him in the **** in the not too distant future.
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
+3
#3
This is just selfish. I can understand the opposing of government policies and conduct based on principles. But the pain that can be caused by these people is not inflicted upon the government but by society as a whole. In the end, they hurt people. And why? Because they don't have things their way? How is this not just overgrown children having a temper tantrum?

I've no doubt the majority of these people are not just the way Ron describes the one that he knows of, which me is wanting to enjoy the benefits of society without taking any of the responsibilities that go along with it. Again, sound like any teenagers you know?
 
Ron in Regina
Free Thinker
+5
#4  Top Rated Post
Just wait 'till a "Freeman" hits a pedestrian with their unregistered vehicle.
That's the scenario where I see this movement coming into the public spot
light. Someone will have to pay for that persons medical expences, and that
might be life long injuries, etc...& this could easily run into the millions of
dollars...

....& a "Freemen" will have no insurance, pay no income tax to be garnisheed,
have no legal income to be garnisheed, have no registered property too be
seized & sold, etc....and will claim in court that he/she/it will try to make
minimum payments when possible, but not on any court ordered regular
schedule (court = authority), and so on and so forth...

A senario like this, if the media picks it up, will really bring this movement
into the light.

Here's a little background on this: Freemen on the land - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (external - login to view)
 
Sal
No Party Affiliation
+2
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in ReginaView Post

Just wait 'till a "Freeman" hits a pedestrian with their unregistered vehicle.
That's the scenario where I see this movement coming into the public spot
light. Someone will have to pay for that persons medical expences, and that
might be life long injuries, etc...& this could easily run into the millions of
dollars...

....& a "Freemen" will have no insurance, pay no income tax to be garnisheed,
have no legal income to be garnisheed, have no registered property too be
seized & sold, etc....and will claim in court that he/she/it will try to make
minimum payments when possible, but not on any court ordered regular
schedule (court = authority), and so on and so forth...

A senario like this, if the media picks it up, will really bring this movement
into the light.

Then they need to go to jail before they injure someone. They are breaking the law when driving uninsured. Fortunately if one were injured by someone such as this, one's own insurance would have to pick up the tab. People such as these, are parasites to the rest of us. They want to enjoy all of the positives without contributing; they want to take from the pool without putting into the pool. Once identified, they must be "helped" to see the error of their ways and the appropriate charges must be laid.
 
Ron in Regina
Free Thinker
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by SalView Post

Then they need to go to jail before they injure someone. They are breaking the law when driving uninsured. Fortunately if one were injured by someone such as this, one's own insurance would have to pick up the tab. People such as these, are parasites to the rest of us. They want to enjoy all of the positives without contributing; they want to take from the pool without putting into the pool. Once identified, they must be "helped" to see the error of their ways and the appropriate charges must be laid.

One's own 'Pedestrian Insurance?' Some may have comprehensive private insurance
policies that might cover something like this, but I'd assume that to be the exception to
the norm. I agree that it's an ugly situation, but then we enter into the situation where
a "Freeman of the Land" is housed in a correctional facility at $100,000+/yr at the tax
payers expense. See the irony?

Maybe they'll just be fined for their infractions, by a court they don't recognize, with
fines they'll never pay....tying up more resources (=tax dollars, that they don't pay),
and having someone eventually try'n to track them down over this (see above), with
these dudes living off the grid making that more difficult again, and giving them another
day in a court that they don't recognize, etc...
 
Sal
No Party Affiliation
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in ReginaView Post

One's own 'Pedestrian Insurance?' Some may have comprehensive private insurance
policies that might cover something like this, but I'd assume that to be the exception to
the norm. I agree that it's an ugly situation, but then we enter into the situation where
a "Freeman of the Land" is housed in a correctional facility at $100,000+/yr at the tax
payers expense. See the irony?

Maybe they'll just be fined for their infractions, by a court they don't recognize, with
fines they'll never pay....tying up more resources (=tax dollars, that they don't pay),
and having someone eventually try'n to track them down over this (see above), with
these dudes living off the grid making that more difficult again, and giving them another
day in a court that they don't recognize, etc...

Well I have long term disability insurance so I am thinking that would cover it. I hear what you are saying about incarceration costs and free representation in court but that can be said for anyone who breaks any law. I do see the irony, but that is the cost we pay to remove the lawless from our streets regardless of who they are or what they may believe.
 
karrie
No Party Affiliation
+4
#8
The problem I see with this is that the freeman on the land mentality is not a comprehensive political viewpoint. Quite the opposite. So anytime someone tells me 'they' are doing 'this' I have to question if I'm being told the truth. Are all freemen on the land doing these things? Or merely a few anarchists who have identified with the movement?

It sounds, frankly, like paranoia that the government has lost control of a few individuals and seeks to reassert it's authority.
 
taxslave
No Party Affiliation
#9
I know plenty of people that fit the general description but I was not aware of any organized group. Wonder how they feel about government services when they get ill? Or their house burns down?
 
petros
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in ReginaView Post

I know one out here...living off the radar in his own mind. No drivers license, working
under the table or with alternate sources of income the gov't doesn't track, ect...yet
has no issue driving his unregistered (=uninsured) vehicle on the city streets.

Al ?
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in ReginaView Post

I know one out here...living off the radar in his own mind. No drivers license, working
under the table or with alternate sources of income the gov't doesn't track, ect...yet
has no issue driving his unregistered (=uninsured) vehicle on the city streets.

Claims doesn't pay tax's, but still shops in the same stores as anyone else so is pay'n
the GST & PST & Luxury Tax's on his booze & fuel like we do. Lots of wacky theories,
and many I can see coming to bite him in the **** in the not too distant future.

Yep, big time, if he's ever involved in a vehicle accident where he's at fault! (When he's enjoying the comforts in jail he may wish he paid a little more tax)-

Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

I know plenty of people that fit the general description but I was not aware of any organized group. Wonder how they feel about government services when they get ill? Or their house burns down?

I think Lasqueti Island may have a few! Sure did back in the '80s-
 
Ron in Regina
Free Thinker
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Al ?

Nope. A "John."
 
Cliffy
Free Thinker
+1
#13
I am familiar with several freemen. Mostly they are peaceful people and as far as I know, there is no organization. It is more about learning the law to protect themselves from the authorities, who they say. according to civil and marine law, have no authority. The authority of government and police is assumed, not granted.
 
Retired_Can_Soldier
+1
#14
A direct result of Government trying to control everyone's life. Although I believe in insurance, I think that governments like the Ontario Government with its half baked laws, or Alberta's photo radar only solidify the actions of anarchists who, with the exception of our good friend Cliffy, are almost as Wacky as the Westboro Baptist Church.
 
petros
+1
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in ReginaView Post

Nope. A "John."

Then there are at least two in town.
 
Cliffy
Free Thinker
+2
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by Retired_Can_SoldierView Post

A direct result of Government trying to control everyone's life. Although I believe in insurance, I think that governments like the Ontario Government with its half baked laws, or Alberta's photo radar only solidify the actions of anarchists who, with the exception of our good friend Cliffy, are almost as Wacky as the Westboro Baptist Church.

That's right. Anarchists are not organized by definition, much like atheists. To me, an organized atheist or anarchist is an oxymoron.
Unfortunately, many freemen go out of their way to test their new found knowledge of the law. It becomes a contest of skills and like to brag about how they one upped the law. To me, just childish ego games.
 
PoliticalNick
Free Thinker
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

The problem I see with this is that the freeman on the land mentality is not a comprehensive political viewpoint. Quite the opposite. So anytime someone tells me 'they' are doing 'this' I have to question if I'm being told the truth. Are all freemen on the land doing these things? Or merely a few anarchists who have identified with the movement?

It sounds, frankly, like paranoia that the government has lost control of a few individuals and seeks to reassert it's authority.

No, not all freemen are radical. Most of the ones I know and am involved with simply want to change our govt to a more accountable body responsible to the people than to any corporation or foreign entity. We seek to have our freedom to live our lives as 'we' see fit and not under the rules set by a govt controlled by corporations. We don't mind paying taxes/fees to provide for policing, healthcare, education, basic infrastructure etc but want fair taxation used for the essential programs instead of corporate welfare and pork-barrel projects.

Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

This is just selfish. I can understand the opposing of government policies and conduct based on principles. But the pain that can be caused by these people is not inflicted upon the government but by society as a whole. In the end, they hurt people. And why? Because they don't have things their way? How is this not just overgrown children having a temper tantrum?

I've no doubt the majority of these people are not just the way Ron describes the one that he knows of, which me is wanting to enjoy the benefits of society without taking any of the responsibilities that go along with it. Again, sound like any teenagers you know?

You obviously know noting about the movement itself and only a few snippets about some of the more radical persons on the fringes. The main body of the movement is actually about freedom from oppressive govt and personal responsibility for yourself & your actions without 'big brother' controlling you. We are not throwing tantrums but claiming as long as we are not infringing on your rights we can control ourselves and do not have to live by the laws you agree to live by because we choose not to have them imposed upon us by force.

The other thing I notice in this thread is a belief that freemen want to have benefit off the govt programs without paying for them. That is incorrect. Those radicals that choose to go 'off the grid' will use the phrase "waive the benefit & claim the right" which means they do not claim EI or welfare etc.
 
Ron in Regina
Free Thinker
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

The other thing I notice in this thread is a belief that freemen want to have benefit off the govt programs without paying for them. That is incorrect. Those radicals that choose to go 'off the grid' will use the phrase "waive the benefit & claim the right" which means they do not claim EI or welfare etc.

I used the above example of traffic/vehicle/insurance/drivers licenses just as an example,
as I see this as the means that most will initially run afoul of the law that they don't
recognize. Next would be Income Tax, or Grow Op's, etc...you know, the little things,
that aren't recognized as pertaining to themselves.

Health Care and Hospitalization would be another scenario where a conflict would arise,
as would be the educational system (& funding) for themselves or their children. The 'free'
things that just happen for for everyone else that all should be entitled to, etc...

"Waive the benefit & claim the right" 'till needed, is where I'm going with this.
 
PoliticalNick
Free Thinker
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Yep, big time, if he's ever involved in a vehicle accident where he's at fault! (When he's enjoying the comforts in jail he may wish he paid a little more tax)-

The group I am involved in are trying to set up an insurance fund for unregistered vehicle. The problem we have is not carrying insurance but the fact that all the corporate insurance companies require your vehicle registered with the govt. It is not the insurance we are against, it is the registration so until there is a means to insure a vehicle without registering it you will have a situation where some people won't carry insurance.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in ReginaView Post

I used the above example of traffic/vehicle/insurance/drivers licenses just as an example,
as I see this as the means that most will initially run afoul of the law that they don't
recognize. Next would be Income Tax, or Grow Op's, etc...you know, the little things,
that aren't recognized as pertaining to themselves.

Health Care and Hospitalization would be another scenario where a conflict would arise,
as would be the educational system (& funding) for themselves or their children. The 'free'
things that just happen for for everyone else that all should be entitled to, etc...

"Waive the benefit & claim the right" 'till needed, is where I'm going with this.

Being a highly unorganized movement with lots of personal interpretation of the philosophy there definitely are some with the 'until needed' mentality. There are others that are never going to use govt services. Until there is a defined philosophy and structure it will continue to be a fringe movement. The group I work with are trying to establish some guidelines that actually work within the law in hopes that we can effect positive change.
 
petros
+2
#20
Thee are several things the "Freemen" are right about, just not all of it.
 
Ron in Regina
Free Thinker
+5
#21
Nick, in the group you're involved with (& maybe the guy I'm familiar with is on the
fringes even for this movement), avoiding such things as Education & Health taxes
tied into the mill rate via property taxes, etc...if one of them has a heart attack, does
he/she/it just suck it up, or do they go to a hospital. What if one of their kids gets
sick? Do their children go to public school? Did they? Do any of them either go to
or have ever gone to a library? Do they drive their unregistered vehicles on public
roads that where built and are maintained with public funds? I could go on, but do
you see the theme that I'm try'n to display?

The 'free' things that all of society pays into for their common usage. Those things...

Maybe it's just my take on this, but the line between 'Freeman' & 'Freeloader' blurs for me
on this issue. Taken a step further, with the effort to tie up the court system (at the tax
payers further expense) with quasi-legal B.S. due to the entitlement of "I'd rather not pay
you Tuesday for that hamberger today 'cuz your rules don't apply to me!" thing is irksome
at best.
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Thee are several things the "Freemen" are right about, just not all of it.

Would that be responsibility for oneself – and accountable for their own actions- But when it comes down to it. The Law is the law.
If someone wants to opt out, emigrate.
 
Cliffy
Free Thinker
+3
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Would that be responsibility for oneself – and accountable for their own actions- But when it comes down to it. The Law is the law.
If someone wants to opt out, emigrate.

The law is not necessarily the law. They do have a point about assumptions that are accepted by most, but have no basis in reality. Just because they don't follow the same rules you subscribe to is no reason to tell them to leave the country. In the end, they are helping you clarify where the law runs beyond its jurisdiction.
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

The law is not necessarily the law. They do have a point about assumptions that are accepted by most, but have no basis in reality. Just because they don't follow the same rules you subscribe to is no reason to tell them to leave the country. In the end, they are helping you clarify where the law runs beyond its jurisdiction.

That is why we have a SCoC. They want to be free of the rules of society- then they should emigrate.

Anti-government
 
Cliffy
Free Thinker
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

That is why we have a SCoC. They want to be free of the rules of society- then they should emigrate.

Anti-government

Do you have another planet in mind?
 
Goober
Free Thinker
+1
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Do you have another planet in mind?

Well I did not want to use magenta- They have nowheres to go. Welcome to Society- whether they like it or not.
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
+1
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by LocutusView Post

An anti-government movement known as Freeman on the Land has become a “major policing problem” in several provinces, according to a threat assessment by Canada’s spy officials.
The report by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service lists Freeman members among “domestic extremists” who associate with issue-based causes, such as environmentalism, anti-capitalism, anti-globalization and far-right racism.
Its adherents fall on both the left and right wings of the political spectrum, but “at the core” of the movement is the belief that “government operates outside of its legal jurisdiction and therefore Freeman members do not recognize the authority of national, provincial, or municipal laws, policies or regulations,” says the report, titled Canada: Biannual Update on Terrorist and Extremist Threats, which was prepared in April and released under federal access-to-information laws.
“Freeman members now constitute a major policing problem in several provinces and have occasionally engaged in acts of violence against the police,” the report states.
In various videos posted online, supporters of the Freeman movement in Canada – including outspoken advocate Robert Menard – reject any association with violent extremism and insist they are “peaceful and loving.”

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Dingbats abound.

Like Goob says, we have a society: like it and be useful and sensibly change it or lump it and either leave or STFU.
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
#28
First of all I know a few people who believe they can pretty much do as they please.
The problem is when it comes to a head, people will find out its not applied its the law.
The Supreme Court will rule in favour of the Governments, the reason they aer ruling
in favour of stability.
The governments are not moving on this because its not on their radar yet until they
discover people are not paying the tax money they want collected then freeman on the
land will pay even more with penalties.
The real problem here is the policing agencies as I see it. They lump these people in
with acceptable groups not to spy on the freeman on the land but to gain access to the
other groups they want to look into Environmentalists. I am one up to a point so I must
have a file. Anti Capitalism, in some cases I am, depending on the actions of some
profit making groups. I also realize that without capitalism we would not have the advances
in products and science we have. but I would still be subject to a file.
Anti Globalism here is where I am in a lot of trouble, I am opposed to the globalization of
trade as the number one method of doing business. I believe that companies doing business
must be responsible to the people they serve and the good of the country must come before
all other considerations, and legislation is required oops another file.
Now throwing right wing racists in is just for colour commentary. There are left wing racists
too, I know of one at least. Yup another file.
Doesn't matter if you are not a terrorist by the standards of spy agencies you are on the fringe
of any of these groups they want to do a file.
The problem is freeman on the land not obeying the law or the laws we don't like more like it
its the fact the police can use the labels to spy on who ever they want for the good of the
country. Personally Freeman on the land should be shown how the law works and how its
applied fairly or not, and demonstrate they will pay and be prosecuted for any offences they
have been part of.
 
petros
+2
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

then they should emigrate.

To where?

What is "emigration" and what happens under international laws when you do emigrate?

Why do somethings follow you from country to country and still hold the status they held in Canada?

Things like a diploma, criminal record, credit rating, signature and birth certificate are all still the same world wide. Why?

Why can't you untie yourself from those things by simply moving to another country?

How is that freeing yourself from the paper you?

Why are you like a car that needs to be registered if you wish to operate on the land or sea?

Is it criminal to operate a you without "registration" and "social insurance" in Canada?

Are you a car?

Material goods of some sorts?

Commercial goods?

A living, breathing, thinking human with a consciousness?

Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

The problem is freeman on the land not obeying the law or the laws.

What are laws? Are they the same as acts, and statutes?
 
CDNBear
+2
#30
When I first learned of the Freemen years ago, it interested me. Doing a little research I found out the following...

The movement is ridiculous.

The "Freemen", idiots.

They have a child like understanding of government. Foist the most absurd arguments to support their idiotic beliefs. Have less than a limited understanding of the law. The latter having been well documented on this very site.

Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Do you have another planet in mind?

Given that they're space cadets, how apropos.
 
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