Freeman creating policing problems here too

[Locutus]

An anti-government movement known as Freeman on the Land has become a “major policing problem” in several provinces, according to a threat assessment by Canada’s spy officials.

The report by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service lists Freeman members among “domestic extremists” who associate with issue-based causes, such as environmentalism, anti-capitalism, anti-globalization and far-right racism.

Its adherents fall on both the left and right wings of the political spectrum, but “at the core” of the movement is the belief that “government operates outside of its legal jurisdiction and therefore Freeman members do not recognize the authority of national, provincial, or municipal laws, policies or regulations,” says the report, titled Canada: Biannual Update on Terrorist and Extremist Threats, which was prepared in April and released under federal access-to-information laws.

“Freeman members now constitute a major policing problem in several provinces and have occasionally engaged in acts of violence against the police,” the report states.

In various videos posted online, supporters of the Freeman movement in Canada – including outspoken advocate Robert Menard – reject any association with violent extremism and insist they are “peaceful and loving.”

Law enforcement officials are not convinced.


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Freeman on the Land movement creates

 

[Ron in Regina]

I know one out here...living off the radar in his own mind. No drivers license, working
under the table or with alternate sources of income the gov't doesn't track, ect...yet
has no issue driving his unregistered (=uninsured) vehicle on the city streets.

Claims doesn't pay tax's, but still shops in the same stores as anyone else so is pay'n
the GST & PST & Luxury Tax's on his booze & fuel like we do. Lots of wacky theories,
and many I can see coming to bite him in the **** in the not too distant future.

 

[SLM]

This is just selfish. I can understand the opposing of government policies and conduct based on principles. But the pain that can be caused by these people is not inflicted upon the government but by society as a whole. In the end, they hurt people. And why? Because they don't have things their way? How is this not just overgrown children having a temper tantrum?

I've no doubt the majority of these people are not just the way Ron describes the one that he knows of, which me is wanting to enjoy the benefits of society without taking any of the responsibilities that go along with it. Again, sound like any teenagers you know?

 

[Ron in Regina]

Just wait 'till a "Freeman" hits a pedestrian with their unregistered vehicle.
That's the scenario where I see this movement coming into the public spot
light. Someone will have to pay for that persons medical expences, and that
might be life long injuries, etc...& this could easily run into the millions of
dollars...

....& a "Freemen" will have no insurance, pay no income tax to be garnisheed,
have no legal income to be garnisheed, have no registered property too be
seized & sold, etc....and will claim in court that he/she/it will try to make
minimum payments when possible, but not on any court ordered regular
schedule (court = authority), and so on and so forth...

A senario like this, if the media picks it up, will really bring this movement
into the light.

Here's a little background on this: Freemen on the land - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Sal]

Just wait 'till a "Freeman" hits a pedestrian with their unregistered vehicle.
That's the scenario where I see this movement coming into the public spot
light. Someone will have to pay for that persons medical expences, and that
might be life long injuries, etc...& this could easily run into the millions of
dollars...

....& a "Freemen" will have no insurance, pay no income tax to be garnisheed,
have no legal income to be garnisheed, have no registered property too be
seized & sold, etc....and will claim in court that he/she/it will try to make
minimum payments when possible, but not on any court ordered regular
schedule (court = authority), and so on and so forth...

A senario like this, if the media picks it up, will really bring this movement
into the light.

Then they need to go to jail before they injure someone. They are breaking the law when driving uninsured. Fortunately if one were injured by someone such as this, one's own insurance would have to pick up the tab. People such as these, are parasites to the rest of us. They want to enjoy all of the positives without contributing; they want to take from the pool without putting into the pool. Once identified, they must be "helped" to see the error of their ways and the appropriate charges must be laid.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Then they need to go to jail before they injure someone. They are breaking the law when driving uninsured. Fortunately if one were injured by someone such as this, one's own insurance would have to pick up the tab. People such as these, are parasites to the rest of us. They want to enjoy all of the positives without contributing; they want to take from the pool without putting into the pool. Once identified, they must be "helped" to see the error of their ways and the appropriate charges must be laid.

One's own 'Pedestrian Insurance?' Some may have comprehensive private insurance
policies that might cover something like this, but I'd assume that to be the exception to
the norm. I agree that it's an ugly situation, but then we enter into the situation where
a "Freeman of the Land" is housed in a correctional facility at $100,000+/yr at the tax
payers expense. See the irony? ;-)

Maybe they'll just be fined for their infractions, by a court they don't recognize, with
fines they'll never pay....tying up more resources (=tax dollars, that they don't pay),
and having someone eventually try'n to track them down over this (see above), with
these dudes living off the grid making that more difficult again, and giving them another
day in a court that they don't recognize, etc...

 

[Sal]

One's own 'Pedestrian Insurance?' Some may have comprehensive private insurance
policies that might cover something like this, but I'd assume that to be the exception to
the norm. I agree that it's an ugly situation, but then we enter into the situation where
a "Freeman of the Land" is housed in a correctional facility at $100,000+/yr at the tax
payers expense. See the irony? ;-)

Maybe they'll just be fined for their infractions, by a court they don't recognize, with
fines they'll never pay....tying up more resources (=tax dollars, that they don't pay),
and having someone eventually try'n to track them down over this (see above), with
these dudes living off the grid making that more difficult again, and giving them another
day in a court that they don't recognize, etc...

Well I have long term disability insurance so I am thinking that would cover it. I hear what you are saying about incarceration costs and free representation in court but that can be said for anyone who breaks any law. I do see the irony, but that is the cost we pay to remove the lawless from our streets regardless of who they are or what they may believe.

 

[karrie]

The problem I see with this is that the freeman on the land mentality is not a comprehensive political viewpoint. Quite the opposite. So anytime someone tells me 'they' are doing 'this' I have to question if I'm being told the truth. Are all freemen on the land doing these things? Or merely a few anarchists who have identified with the movement?

It sounds, frankly, like paranoia that the government has lost control of a few individuals and seeks to reassert it's authority.

 

[taxslave]

I know plenty of people that fit the general description but I was not aware of any organized group. Wonder how they feel about government services when they get ill? Or their house burns down?

 

[petros]

I know one out here...living off the radar in his own mind. No drivers license, working
under the table or with alternate sources of income the gov't doesn't track, ect...yet
has no issue driving his unregistered (=uninsured) vehicle on the city streets.

Al ?

 

[JLM]

I know one out here...living off the radar in his own mind. No drivers license, working
under the table or with alternate sources of income the gov't doesn't track, ect...yet
has no issue driving his unregistered (=uninsured) vehicle on the city streets.

Claims doesn't pay tax's, but still shops in the same stores as anyone else so is pay'n
the GST & PST & Luxury Tax's on his booze & fuel like we do. Lots of wacky theories,
and many I can see coming to bite him in the **** in the not too distant future.

Yep, big time, if he's ever involved in a vehicle accident where he's at fault! (When he's enjoying the comforts in jail he may wish he paid a little more tax)-

I know plenty of people that fit the general description but I was not aware of any organized group. Wonder how they feel about government services when they get ill? Or their house burns down?

I think Lasqueti Island may have a few! Sure did back in the '80s-

 

[Ron in Regina]

Al ?

Nope. A "John."

 

[Cliffy]

I am familiar with several freemen. Mostly they are peaceful people and as far as I know, there is no organization. It is more about learning the law to protect themselves from the authorities, who they say. according to civil and marine law, have no authority. The authority of government and police is assumed, not granted.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

A direct result of Government trying to control everyone's life. Although I believe in insurance, I think that governments like the Ontario Government with its half baked laws, or Alberta's photo radar only solidify the actions of anarchists who, with the exception of our good friend Cliffy, are almost as Wacky as the Westboro Baptist Church.

 

[petros]

Nope. A "John."

Then there are at least two in town.

 

[Cliffy]

A direct result of Government trying to control everyone's life. Although I believe in insurance, I think that governments like the Ontario Government with its half baked laws, or Alberta's photo radar only solidify the actions of anarchists who, with the exception of our good friend Cliffy, are almost as Wacky as the Westboro Baptist Church.

That's right. Anarchists are not organized by definition, much like atheists. To me, an organized atheist or anarchist is an oxymoron.
Unfortunately, many freemen go out of their way to test their new found knowledge of the law. It becomes a contest of skills and like to brag about how they one upped the law. To me, just childish ego games.

 

[PoliticalNick]

The problem I see with this is that the freeman on the land mentality is not a comprehensive political viewpoint. Quite the opposite. So anytime someone tells me 'they' are doing 'this' I have to question if I'm being told the truth. Are all freemen on the land doing these things? Or merely a few anarchists who have identified with the movement?

It sounds, frankly, like paranoia that the government has lost control of a few individuals and seeks to reassert it's authority.

No, not all freemen are radical. Most of the ones I know and am involved with simply want to change our govt to a more accountable body responsible to the people than to any corporation or foreign entity. We seek to have our freedom to live our lives as 'we' see fit and not under the rules set by a govt controlled by corporations. We don't mind paying taxes/fees to provide for policing, healthcare, education, basic infrastructure etc but want fair taxation used for the essential programs instead of corporate welfare and pork-barrel projects.

This is just selfish. I can understand the opposing of government policies and conduct based on principles. But the pain that can be caused by these people is not inflicted upon the government but by society as a whole. In the end, they hurt people. And why? Because they don't have things their way? How is this not just overgrown children having a temper tantrum?

I've no doubt the majority of these people are not just the way Ron describes the one that he knows of, which me is wanting to enjoy the benefits of society without taking any of the responsibilities that go along with it. Again, sound like any teenagers you know?

You obviously know noting about the movement itself and only a few snippets about some of the more radical persons on the fringes. The main body of the movement is actually about freedom from oppressive govt and personal responsibility for yourself & your actions without 'big brother' controlling you. We are not throwing tantrums but claiming as long as we are not infringing on your rights we can control ourselves and do not have to live by the laws you agree to live by because we choose not to have them imposed upon us by force.

The other thing I notice in this thread is a belief that freemen want to have benefit off the govt programs without paying for them. That is incorrect. Those radicals that choose to go 'off the grid' will use the phrase "waive the benefit & claim the right" which means they do not claim EI or welfare etc.

 

[Ron in Regina]

The other thing I notice in this thread is a belief that freemen want to have benefit off the govt programs without paying for them. That is incorrect. Those radicals that choose to go 'off the grid' will use the phrase "waive the benefit & claim the right" which means they do not claim EI or welfare etc.

I used the above example of traffic/vehicle/insurance/drivers licenses just as an example,
as I see this as the means that most will initially run afoul of the law that they don't
recognize. Next would be Income Tax, or Grow Op's, etc...you know, the little things,
that aren't recognized as pertaining to themselves.

Health Care and Hospitalization would be another scenario where a conflict would arise,
as would be the educational system (& funding) for themselves or their children. The 'free'
things that just happen for for everyone else that all should be entitled to, etc...

"Waive the benefit & claim the right" 'till needed, is where I'm going with this.

 

[PoliticalNick]

Yep, big time, if he's ever involved in a vehicle accident where he's at fault! (When he's enjoying the comforts in jail he may wish he paid a little more tax)-

The group I am involved in are trying to set up an insurance fund for unregistered vehicle. The problem we have is not carrying insurance but the fact that all the corporate insurance companies require your vehicle registered with the govt. It is not the insurance we are against, it is the registration so until there is a means to insure a vehicle without registering it you will have a situation where some people won't carry insurance.

I used the above example of traffic/vehicle/insurance/drivers licenses just as an example,
as I see this as the means that most will initially run afoul of the law that they don't
recognize. Next would be Income Tax, or Grow Op's, etc...you know, the little things,
that aren't recognized as pertaining to themselves.

Health Care and Hospitalization would be another scenario where a conflict would arise,
as would be the educational system (& funding) for themselves or their children. The 'free'
things that just happen for for everyone else that all should be entitled to, etc...

"Waive the benefit & claim the right" 'till needed, is where I'm going with this.

Being a highly unorganized movement with lots of personal interpretation of the philosophy there definitely are some with the 'until needed' mentality. There are others that are never going to use govt services. Until there is a defined philosophy and structure it will continue to be a fringe movement. The group I work with are trying to establish some guidelines that actually work within the law in hopes that we can effect positive change.

 

[petros]

Thee are several things the "Freemen" are right about, just not all of it.