78% of Cdns against ceding control of resources to foreign Govts.

[tay]

Despite this high number of Canadian wanting to retain our resources for Canadians, now and in the future, it appears the Harperites don't care.

So what could possibly motivate some politicians to sell Canadians out?

The new China investment deal that Prime Minister Stephen Harper inked in Russia and that will become law by Nov 1 could be "a 31-year ball and chain on Canada," without critical changes says Gus Van Harten, a Toronto-based global legal authority on investment trade deals.

Moreover the agreement, part of Harper's aggressive agenda to sell Canadian energy and mining resources to the world's second largest economy, will make it easier for China's powerful state-owned enterprises (SOE's) such as Sinopec, (Asia's largest refiner) the Kailuan Group (a coal conglomerate) and CNOOC (a national oil company) to control the pace and scale of resource development in Canada.

The Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection Agreement (FIPA) also gives China's state owned enterprises, already under fire for corruption and inefficiency, the right to contest any Canadian standards that might stipulate the use of Canadian labour and materials in resource projects.

"The deal in effect gives risk insurance to Chinese companies borne by Canadian taxpayers. Taxpayers assume major liability for business losses of Chinese investors due to legal or regulatory changes in Canada," explains Van Harten, who has sent a letter to Prime Minister Stephen Harper (published here on The Tyee) and another to British Columbia Premier Christy Clark laying out his critical ****ysis.

Given its fast tracked approach to finalizing the deal, the Harper government will not have completed an assessment on the treaty's environmental impacts on resource development until a week after the treaty is approved without parliamentary debate.

more


The Tyee – China Trade Deal a '31-Year Ball and Chain' on Canada


poll

Three of four Canadians against ceding control of resources to foreign governments: poll | The Hook

 

[WLDB]

I'd count myself as one of them. The resources are ours. We should develop them, not foreign companies. Particularly not foreign companies that are owned by another state.

 

[captain morgan]

Despite this high number of Canadian wanting to retain our resources for Canadians, now and in the future, it appears the Harperites don't care.

poll

Three of four Canadians against ceding control of resources to foreign governments: poll | The Hook

But, it would be OK for a 'Canadian' company traded on the public markets to have all it's shares bought up by foreign entities through the various global exchanges?

Fact is; it would be much cheaper for CNOOC to start making attractive bids on the shares and buy the company that way. They probably only need 40-50% of the outstanding shares to take full control of the company.

That said, this is nothing to do with Harper in any way at all.

I'd count myself as one of them. The resources are ours. We should develop them, not foreign companies. Particularly not foreign companies that are owned by another state.

To my knowledge, most of Nexen's production is based outside of Canada... Ironic in that those nations have ceded their resources to that company (for a price).

Let's also not forget that the company will be paying royalties, corporate taxes, fees, licensing, and a myriad of other costs to operate their Canadian assets... It's not as if their is no benefit to Canadians

 

[taxslave]

Despite this high number of Canadian wanting to retain our resources for Canadians, now and in the future, it appears the Harperites don't care.

So what could possibly motivate some politicians to sell Canadians out?






more


The Tyee – China Trade Deal a '31-Year Ball and Chain' on Canada


poll

Three of four Canadians against ceding control of resources to foreign governments: poll | The Hook

Tyee news is the propaganda arm of the NDP and must be interpreted with that in mind. Much like reading a union news?letter one has to remember there is a lot of spin and little fact.

 

[Machjo]

Certainly we ought to ensure any trade deal does not give the foreign company special privileges not granted Canadian ones. We'd better make sure it's well written.

 

[captain morgan]

Certainly we ought to ensure any trade deal does not give the foreign company special privileges not granted Canadian ones. We'd better make sure it's well written.

There would be no 'special privileges' provided to CNOOC on this deal. They would be completely bound by the existing laws/arrangements that Nexen has in place today

 

[Machjo]

There would be no 'special privileges' provided to CNOOC on this deal. They would be completely bound by the existing laws/arrangements that Nexen has in place today

So no issue then.

 

[captain morgan]

I'd agree.

That said, I don't see the point in over-an*lyzing this impossibility to death

 

[PoliticalNick]

But, it would be OK for a 'Canadian' company traded on the public markets to have all it's shares bought up by foreign entities through the various global exchanges?

Fact is; it would be much cheaper for CNOOC to start making attractive bids on the shares and buy the company that way. They probably only need 40-50% of the outstanding shares to take full control of the company.

That said, this is nothing to do with Harper in any way at all.




To my knowledge, most of Nexen's production is based outside of Canada... Ironic in that those nations have ceded their resources to that company (for a price).

Let's also not forget that the company will be paying royalties, corporate taxes, fees, licensing, and a myriad of other costs to operate their Canadian assets... It's not as if their is no benefit to Canadians

So you don't mind foreigners having control over our resources as long as they pay their pittance of tax?

I say f*ck all the foreign corps. We could easily make a law requiring any resource development and exploitation be done by companies whose majority shares are Canadian owned & operated. It is not like the world will not want our oil & gas etc just because we impose strict regulations on how they can get them.

 

[captain morgan]

So you don't mind foreigners having control over our resources as long as they pay their pittance of tax?

I say f*ck all the foreign corps. We could easily make a law requiring any resource development and exploitation be done by companies whose majority shares are Canadian owned & operated. It is not like the world will not want our oil & gas etc just because we impose strict regulations on how they can get them.

Fine by me.... That said, the majority of the funding then needs to come from Canadians. To date, the resource sector (and mfg or any other industry that requires large scale capital financing) originates outside of Canada.

I guess that until we can raise those monies domestically, we don't develop any of the resources.. Sound about right?

 

[Tonington]

To my knowledge, most of Nexen's production is based outside of Canada... Ironic in that those nations have ceded their resources to that company (for a price).

Yep, only 27.6% of Nexen's production is in Canada, according to their last quarter's report. Politics...

 

[PoliticalNick]

Fine by me.... That said, the majority of the funding then needs to come from Canadians. To date, the resource sector (and mfg or any other industry that requires large scale capital financing) originates outside of Canada.

I guess that until we can raise those monies domestically, we don't develop any of the resources.. Sound about right?

There is nothing to stop a company creating a subsidiary that is wholly owned in Canada. We just have to make sure that it is Canadians getting the jobs, the company pays ALL relevant taxes etc in Canada (no exemptions for anything) and that all dividends are paid within Canada and taxable in Canada.

We should also be demanding that resource exploitation companies are bound to sell a fixed percentage to Canada or Canadian companies at a reduced price. They are our resources so why should we pay a premium price? No reason Canadians should be paying more for oil & gas than Americans when we have the resources and they don't. This is the net result of allowing foreign exploitation, they get to buy Canadian oil cheaper than Canadians and that just ain't right.

 

[captain morgan]

There is nothing to stop a company creating a subsidiary that is wholly owned in Canada. We just have to make sure that it is Canadians getting the jobs, the company pays ALL relevant taxes etc in Canada (no exemptions for anything) and that all dividends are paid within Canada and taxable in Canada.

If the subsidiary were owned by a foreign entity; well, it would be still owned by a foreign company

We should also be demanding that resource exploitation companies are bound to sell a fixed percentage to Canada or Canadian companies at a reduced price. They are our resources so why should we pay a premium price? No reason Canadians should be paying more for oil & gas than Americans when we have the resources and they don't. This is the net result of allowing foreign exploitation, they get to buy Canadian oil cheaper than Canadians and that just ain't right.

Why stop at oil?

We should demand that any mining company sell a fixed % of their gold to Canadians at a reduced price and we can demand that workers in all sectors provide steep discounts in their applicable wages for a legislated amount of work done for Canadian entities.

Hell, I bet that the Canadian auto sector would love the opportunity to sell Canadian made Ford trucks to Canadians for a legislated 50% discount.

What do you think?

 

[WLDB]

Fine by me.... That said, the majority of the funding then needs to come from Canadians. To date, the resource sector (and mfg or any other industry that requires large scale capital financing) originates outside of Canada.

I guess that until we can raise those monies domestically, we don't develop any of the resources.. Sound about right?

We have the resources. Thats where the money could come from. We can make up for the up front costs by selling it for a higher price overseas.

 

[PoliticalNick]

If the subsidiary were owned by a foreign entity; well, it would be still owned by a foreign company




Why stop at oil?

We should demand that any mining company sell a fixed % of their gold to Canadians at a reduced price and we can demand that workers in all sectors provide steep discounts in their applicable wages for a legislated amount of work done for Canadian entities.

Hell, I bet that the Canadian auto sector would love the opportunity to sell Canadian made Ford trucks to Canadians for a legislated 50% discount.

What do you think?

I think if we can make Ford sell us Canadian made Fords for 50% less and they still make a profit I don't know what we are waiting for. No need to cut wages, just profit margin. I know you would go after wages to maintain profit but that is of course the problem with corporate culture and we can legislate to protect the workers from such attempts by idiots. It becomes an issue of how much we will allow these corps to profit from Canadians. They will not pull out of the market because Canadian law only allows then to post $4 billion in profit instead of $8 billion.

 

[captain morgan]

We have the resources. Thats where the money could come from. We can make up for the up front costs by selling it for a higher price overseas.

I am unsure what you're driving at here. The capital being raised is to exploit the resources; they don't have any value until they are extracted... The money being raised is to assume the risk(s) associated with the exploitation.

You've painted a scenario that is kind of cart-before-the-horse

I think if we can make Ford sell us Canadian made Fords for 50% less and they still make a profit I don't know what we are waiting for. No need to cut wages, just profit margin. I know you would go after wages to maintain profit but that is of course the problem with corporate culture and we can legislate to protect the workers from such attempts by idiots. It becomes an issue of how much we will allow these corps to profit from Canadians. They will not pull out of the market because Canadian law only allows then to post $4 billion in profit instead of $8 billion.

The subjective element in your suggestion requires a definition relative to exactly what is an acceptable level of profit. So, let's reverse the scenario a bit... If Ford was compelled to sell trucks to Canadians at a 50% discount (regardless of profit) - would Canadians then be compelled to subsidize Ford in order to bring the profits up to the predetermined and acceptable level?

 

[Machjo]

I guess that until we can raise those monies domestically, we don't develop any of the resources.. Sound about right?

That might not be a bad idea. It would slow down exploitation and thus push the cost of gas up on the world market owing to a reduced rate of exploitation.

 

[PoliticalNick]

The subjective element in your suggestion requires a definition relative to exactly what is an acceptable level of profit. So, let's reverse the scenario a bit... If Ford was compelled to sell trucks to Canadians at a 50% discount (regardless of profit) - would Canadians then be compelled to subsidize Ford in order to bring the profits up to the predetermined and acceptable level?

Telling any corporation they cannot profit is ludicrous. Their whole existence and their charters are specifically to profit as much as possible without regard for any other factor. That in itself is the biggest part of the global problems today. What I propose is placing restrictions on this rampant profit-driven motivation to favor the individual citizens, you know...human beings, the general public, the majority. Whether they are forced to drop prices by 25% or 50% or even 75% can be determined by an examination of their books for the last couple of years. I know many, I'm sure you included, would feel it is invasive to have a corp open their books to the people who they sell to but it just becomes the cost of doing business in Canada and since most are public anyway it shouldn't matter.

I always come back to the same point, the corporations are not going to walk away from a market of 34 million consumers as long as they can profit, they will be happy with $4 billion and happier with $8 billion but the citizens will be happier with the $4 billion and that is what should count.

 

[Machjo]

But Political Nick. If you just force them to lower the cost of gas for Canadians, are we not then subsidizing suburbia, traffic, inner city air polution, suburban sprawl, etc.?

If provinces just sell their Crown resources at a higher price, this becomes a new source of revenue for the government which could then allow it to lower income taxes, assuming of course that these companies are willing to pay the price. And if they're not, no worries, the oil will just sit in the ground till the price does go up a little more.

Also, requiring companies with more than 500 employees to have 50% of the board of directors be elected by the workers themselves, with the tie-breaking vote going to the board president who by default would be elected by the investors, this would insure that while the investors still have a final say, they cannot do anything without consulting with workers first. But I'd apply this to domestic companies too. No doble standards.

 

[taxslave]

Telling any corporation they cannot profit is ludicrous. Their whole existence and their charters are specifically to profit as much as possible without regard for any other factor. That in itself is the biggest part of the global problems today. What I propose is placing restrictions on this rampant profit-driven motivation to favor the individual citizens, you know...human beings, the general public, the majority. Whether they are forced to drop prices by 25% or 50% or even 75% can be determined by an examination of their books for the last couple of years. I know many, I'm sure you included, would feel it is invasive to have a corp open their books to the people who they sell to but it just becomes the cost of doing business in Canada and since most are public anyway it shouldn't matter.

I always come back to the same point, the corporations are not going to walk away from a market of 34 million consumers as long as they can profit, they will be happy with $4 billion and happier with $8 billion but the citizens will be happier with the $4 billion and that is what should count.

DOn't bet your house on that nonsensical statement. Here is how big companies view your little world.
Several years back A friend who owned part of a welding supply business with several branches was after the supplier of auto darkening helmets to make some with Canadian flags etc instead of just black and US themed ones. The response he got was"There are a little over 30 million people in Canada. There are over 8o million blacks in America. If we wanted to do niche marketing we would target that market first"