The ethics of questioning one's patriotism.

The whole Iggy vs Harper debate is a tangent, nothing more, but I will add this to it: having been in the US now for 2 1/2 years (which is far less than 22 or 32!) I do find it grows increasingly difficult to stay in touch with Canadian issues, even though I still talk to friends and family back home regularly and I still get some of my daily news/information from Canadian and other international sources. I don't think Iggy is any smarter than I am (no I am not a professor at Havard but never felt the desire to go down that path either), so for him to be in touch (which recent political history does bring into question) he would have had to devote considerable resources to maintaining that conscious effort. Its almost an osmotic process, the way that we pick up on the concerns of those who surround us and being removed from the country, that process is slowed if not halted.

All this really means is that one's citizenship status does not automatically indicate how committed one is to their country.

This is something that the right really need to get over. It's pretty naive.

That's a real good generalization that takes no facts into mind. When did you become a mind reader ... or did you appoint yourself as thoughtsperson for anyone whose opinion differs from yours?

So the criticism was directed towards one individual specifically which means it's also an attack on you?

Makes perfect sense.

....

That's one ...who hardly counts as a THEY

Ya wanna fight about it?

You really don't understand how passive agressive insults work. The House of Commons doesn't allow making direct comments towards other members, so of course the statement applies equally to anybody that fits the negation of his comment. In fact, in order not to be in contempt of the rules of the House it is necessary that he actually mean the comment to be as general as he said it.

So yes, he is indeed implying that because I live outside of Canada (you imply I need to for another 16 years before I am a snake), that I am somehow less qualified to be a politician. But the qualifications for being a politician are merely citizenship. So yes, the basis of his statements rests on premises that would lead one to conclude that I am less of a Canadian for living outside of Canada.

Ya wanna be pubicly humiliated?

lol

I'm sure there is some legitimacy for voters to voice their concerns over the Canadian membership of those who represent them, but ultimately, as long as they have a citizenship (even if it is dual) then they've already satisfied their requirement of commitment.

The basis of statements rest on the premise that would lead on to conclude that Iggy was less qualified to be PM for living outside of Canada for such a long time. That's it. His statements had nothing to do with you or your patriotism.

But if he was running against you for that office, would you not want to use that as election fodder?

In all seriousness, I can see leaving the door open for persons of questionable loyalty to hold the highest of offices to be a dangerous thing. Politicians can be very glib individuals who can fool the brightest of folk into believing they are saviour, conquerer and all around nice guy. Heck, they'd even fib about ties back home. I have no issue with France. I don't suspect Canada has either. Where that open door could become a problem is if you give someone whose true loyalties rest with a nation who will stop at nothing for global domination the job. Do you suppose potash, lumber or oil would be Canadian if the PM's heart lives in China (f'rinstance NP's)

Anyone has the right to question anything, including a persons patriotism.

That right is not complete however. If a person were to make a public charge against another, they may well be subject to legal action.

Couple quotes:
"My country, right or wrong," is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, "My mother, drunk or sober."
G. K. Chesterton

When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and purity of its heart.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

When I am abroad, I always make it a rule never to criticize or attack the government of my own country. I make up for lost time when I come home.
Sir Winston Churchill

A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle and patriotism is loyalty to that principle.
George William Curtis

Patriotism is fine as long as what one is patriotic towards keeps noble principles. Nationalism is just goofy (except in sports).
Me

I was born and raised in Canada, a Canadian Citizen, now living in Australia.... and while I'll probably make my way back to Canada to live in a few years, I may also gain my Citizenship for Australia.... thus dual.

It's very easy to blanket the situation with a comment like the above, focusing on those from other countries who've moved to Canada out of "Convenience".... yet what about those who were born and raised in Canada who head off to another country and become dual citizens of that nation?

Are they doing it all out of convenience?

Am I doing it out of mere convenience??

I call Bullsh*t on comments like that.

Both countries, Canada and Australia, are now my homes.... I have family in both nations, I have lives in both nations and I give a damn towards what happens in both nations.

This crap about someone being less of a Canadian merely because they actually got off their ass to see the world and live life somewhere else for a while is just that.... utter crap from narrow minded, rednecks who are too afraid of stepping outside of their own country to see what's really going on for those around the world other than what they get fed from the news and politicians.

I've been saying this long before I left Canada: Canada isn't the greatest country in the world.... neither is Australia, or the UK, or the US or anywhere for that matter.

If a country was indeed the greatest nation in the world, we'd all be living under their flag because we'd all want to be a part of that way of life.

The reality is that every nation has it's pros and cons.

In regards to this guy in the NDP who has citizenship with France.... what does it matter if he has French, British, Indian or some other citizenship along with Canadian?

Conflict of interest?

Hardly.

If he can do his job, if he can represent those who voted for him, if he actually does his best to make the country a little better than it was.... then nothing else matters & he probably couldn't do anymore of a worse job than any other politician out there. The fact is, he lives in Canada, this is his home now and he is in politics to try and contribute to this nation (at least one would hope)

The moment he looks like he's not doing his job, the moment he seems to be trying to sway things to favor France or whatever.... then drop him and put someone else in.

This whole fear mongering over someone holding dual citizenship is pointless dribble.

If I was in politics in Canada, held a Canadian & Australian Citizenship, I would still do my job as expected, I would still focus on what is important for the nation I live in, for the nation that my family lives in..... if something came along that involved Australia and looked like there could be a conflict, I'd avoid the situation and allow someone else to handle that situation.

And if I was a politician in Australia.... it'd be the same thing.

It's funny how Harper targets this guy for trying to lead the NDP because he has a French Citizenship.... yet Iggy was allowed to lead the Liberals.... and Dion also had a French Citizenship.

In regards to this, I suppose it doesn't matter if your birth nation is Canada.... but if you get your Canadian Citizenship 2nd, then something's wrong.

And Harper can go on and say crap like "In my case, as I say, I'm very clear. I'm a Canadian and only a Canadian." .... well that's all well and good.... but why do you act like an American within Canadian Politics??

Just because someone only holds one citizenship, that doesn't mean they're more patriotic (or act more patriotic) than someone who holds two.

What about all the people who hold only a Canadian Citizenship who commit criminal acts against the people within Canada, who sell out their nation to other countries for a profit, who demand everything yet contribute nothing, who don't vote, etc. etc....

.... are they somehow more patriotic than someone who holds dual citizenship yet contribute to society, who help their neighbors, who abide by the laws of the land, who actually gets into politics because they want to somehow better the nation they call home?

Oh but since they have dual citizenship with Canada and another nation, they have two homes.

Well a bunch of people have more than one home within the nation they live in, should they be forced to only have one? You have people who have a home in say Nova Scotia, who work half the year there, yet work the other half of the year in Ontario where they have another home.... shall we start to delve deeper into this and try to argue they prefer one province over the other or should only live in one or the other, but not both?

The only reason why people have an issue with others having dual citizenship is because those people are narrow minded & ignorant.... whom seem fearful of someone that might have a broader perspective of the world around them and also fear that since they are also a citizen of another nation, that they're going to jump at the first chance to sell them out to the other nation.

It doesn't anger me.... I'm not insulted by those kinds of people like Harper.... I think think it's all BS and they're ignorant.

If you think remaining bottled up in one nation all your life and avoiding living elsewhere in the world other than as a tourist makes you somehow a better person or more patriotic than someone who does..... then that's your loss.

The other country is irrelevant.

If I was leading Canada and there was a deal between Canada and Australia to be sorted out.... I am representing Canada, my job is to defend Canada's interests, therefore I would be trying to get the best deal for Canadians.... not Australians.... that's their PM's job, not mine.

And vice versa.... if I got my Aussie Citizenship, and if I could run for PM for Australia and win..... if a trade deal or something else similar occurred between Canada and Australia.... while Canada is where I was born and raised and I still have close ties to Canada... my Job is to defend Australian interests and its people, therefore I would seek out the best deal for Australia.

If I went into the meeting seeking to give Canada the better deal at the cost of the Australian people, I'd expect to get my ass dragged through the coals..... same if I was Canadian PM cutting Australia a better deal.... I'd have my ass dragged through the snow.

The elephant in the room are those from the Middle East with dual citizenship. Perhaps our dear leader questions Canada's obligation to them?

Dual citizen or not, if you are a Canadian, you should have all the righrs and privileges of any other Canadian.

One other thing I'd like to point out about the "Convenience" citizens comments.... is that moving to another country, applying for Visas, finding a place to live, finding a job and eventually becoming a citizen of a country isn't very convenient nor a friggin cake walk.

It costs a crap load of money for Visas, you have to get background checks, you need criminal checks, health checks, you have to basically tell the other country your entire life story & if your applying for a spousal visa like I did, you have to tell them how you met, tell them just about every detail you can think of, you need to provide photos of you and your partner together, tell them when and where the photos were taken, provide photos of your families together, have written statements from others to confirm your relationship..... show evidence that the wedding took place..... etc etc.... oh and dish out a couple of thousands of dollars for it all to be processed.

And on top of that, when I was applying for my Spousal Visa for Australia, there's a three month wait to hear if you are approved for that Visa or not. If you are rejected, there are no appeals and you don't get your money back.

Applying for the same Visa for Canada, there's a 3 year wait to hear if you are approved or not, but the process is basically the exact same.

Then you have to live in said country for at least 3-5 years before you can even apply for Citizenship and even then it's not like you just walk in, ask for Citizenship and they just print out a certificate.... they test you, you need to prove you know what the country is all about, its history, its laws, its culture and so on.

So to think or even say people get dual citizenship simply out of "Convenience" is a load of crap because it's not convenient in the slightest.

Maybe it's simple for refuges, I don't know... maybe they just show up in a boat, claim refuge status, live in the country for a couple of years and get Citizenship..... then head back to their original country to stir up crap and cry for help when they need it from the other country..... but for those who actually enter countries by the book and do everything they're supposed to, it's not easy, it's not a quick process and it's certainly not pocket change.

That person either has piles of money & time to burn, or they genuinely have an interest in that nation and have legit reasons to move to that nation to contribute to their society.