Family name problem

hnagy
#1
Dear all, kindly help me .
My name is "Hatem Nagy Morkos Megaly",
I have 2 daughters, their passports states their names as below:
"Natalie Hatem Nagy Morkos Megaly"
"Joelle Hatem Nagy Morkos "
I am preparing my papers and forms to immigrate to Quebec,
but i don't know what to write in the "family name" filed.
mine, will be Megaly, can i write "Morkos" for both of them?
please advise

Best Regards
Hatem
 
TenPenny
#2
I would put one as 'Morkos Megaly' and the other as 'Morkos'
 
mabudon
#3
I am not sure exactly what the answer would be, but I wanted to stress that you must make SURE this gets done right the first time, any mistake will likely cause you major headaches in the future, so if at all possible, I would suggest contacting the proper government agency (I would think Immigration and Naturalization??) for an answer- and make sure to document who told you which way is "right" and when they told you so you have a defense in case you get accused of doing something "sneaky". Our system is set up for "english style" names and a situation like yours might require some sort of judgment call.

Whatever happens, best of luck and I hope you enjoy being in Canada!
 
Machjo
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by hnagyView Post

Dear all, kindly help me .
My name is "Hatem Nagy Morkos Megaly",
I have 2 daughters, their passports states their names as below:
"Natalie Hatem Nagy Morkos Megaly"
"Joelle Hatem Nagy Morkos "
I am preparing my papers and forms to immigrate to Quebec,
but i don't know what to write in the "family name" filed.
mine, will be Megaly, can i write "Morkos" for both of them?
please advise

Best Regards
Hatem

"Family name" can be defined differently according to various cultures.

I would guess that the passport standard should be acceptable, but as with all legal matters, I'd confirm this with the Quebec Ministry of Immigration first to be sure that is in fact correct if you have any doubts.
 
hnagy
#5
really thanks a lot for your true support, i am still confuse, but i am also still searching.

Dear all, I mean that my kids' family name (4th name) is not matching with my family name (4th name), is that natural?
 
bobnoorduyn
#6
I don't know if you are already in Canada or not. If not, try finding a Canadian consulate or embassy near where you are, (immigration offices are easy to find if you are here). Face to face contact with a real person can stop a lot of problems before they start. We have a family name that has many spellings and pronunciations and does not translate well into many languages, this causes problems too. Good luck.
 
Machjo
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by hnagyView Post

really thanks a lot for your true support, i am still confuse, but i am also still searching.

Dear all, I mean that my kids' family name (4th name) is not matching with my family name (4th name), is that natural?

No family name is 'natural' as that would imply that it was passed on genetically. All family names are 'artificial'in that they've been passed down consciously by someone, usually the parents, even if they don't understand the reason behind the family name.

You'll notice that many English family names are names of trades of professions, towns and cities, or even personal names with the suffix -son attached to them. This is because historically the family name was not passed down from parent to child as it is today, but rather, depending on the tradition, the child's city of birth, the father's name, or later in life according to his trade or profession, bearing in mind that a child's trade or profession often followed in his father's footsteps. So the idea of the father's given name forming the child's family name is certainly not foreign to English culture.

Since you're in Quebec, we have to consider French culture too. In French culture too though you'll notice many family names formed from the names of cities, trades or professions, owing to a similar history. So your family tradition is not so foreign to French culture either. Many cultures around the world continue to follow the tradition of the child's second name being the father's name, and the third name being the paternal grandfather's name, the name of his birth town, or the name of his tribe. Often in the same town various family traditions are followed in this regard and sometimes they are even interchangeable. None of this if foreign to historical French and English cultures, and so I'm sure the Ministry will likely accept this without difficulty; but confirm this with the Ministry anyway just to be sure, as I may be wrong.

One thing I do know is that the law generally likes consistency, so my guess is that they'll certainly accept if not even encourage or even require that you follow the standard in your passports.
 
hnagy
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

No family name is 'natural' as that would imply that it was passed on genetically. All family names are 'artificial'in that they've been passed down consciously by someone, usually the parents, even if they don't understand the reason behind the family name.
You'll notice that many English family names are names of trades of professions, towns and cities, or even personal names with the suffix -son attached to them. This is because historically the family name was not passed down from parent to child as it is today, but rather, depending on the tradition, the child's city of birth, the father's name, or later in life according to his trade or profession, bearing in mind that a child's trade or profession often followed in his father's footsteps. So the idea of the father's given name forming the child's family name is certainly not foreign to English culture.
Since you're in Quebec, we have to consider French culture too. In French culture too though you'll notice many family names formed from the names of cities, trades or professions, owing to a similar history. So your family tradition is not so foreign to French culture either. Many cultures around the world continue to follow the tradition of the child's second name being the father's name, and the third name being the paternal grandfather's name, the name of his birth town, or the name of his tribe. Often in the same town various family traditions are followed in this regard and sometimes...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post

Can I put my third name "Morkos" as the family name for all of us and neglect my fourth name "Megaly" at all?
 
hnagy
#9
Is there is anything prevents me from making my 3rd name "Morkos" our family name not my 4th name?
 
numbnuts
#10
I find it rather odd that you don't even know what your family name is.
 
Machjo
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by numbnutsView Post

I find it rather odd that you don't even know what your family name is.

I don't know his nationality, but different cultures approach the family name quite differently. In some it's the first name, in others the last name; in some it changes from generation to generation, or there in fact is no family name as we'd think of it since it's merely a matter of adopting the father's given name, which would mean that the 'family name' of the child is different from that of the father, which in tern is different from that of the grandfather, etc.

So when a person moves elsewhere, the rules may be so incompatible he's forced to make some decisions. I get the impression this is what's happening now. His traditional form is incompatible with our required legal forms and so he's trying to decide what form to adopt as a new compatible form that would come closest to maintaining his traditional form. We face the same problems abroad. I myself had to adopt a couple of different names, one short two-character name, based on my first name in French, but with the first part forming my 'family' name and the second part my 'given name', in conformity with standard Chinese norms, I'd use for signing documents; and a 'full-form' version based on my complete series of names in French, comprising a series of 8 characters interspersed with standard Chinese punctuation dots which I'd used for official ID. This second form was obviously simply a Sinification of my French names, which I'd used only within formal and legal contexts.

Quote: Originally Posted by hnagyView Post

Can I put my third name "Morkos" as the family name for all of us and neglect my fourth name "Megaly" at all?

I would strongly advise that whatever decision you make, that you first consult with the appropriate authority to be sure that it is legal, so I don't now the answer to your question for sure.

Remember too that the Canadian authorities are likely not going to be familiar with your own traditional naming rules either, and so will likely simply expect you to conform to whatever is in your passport if it's spelt using the Roman alphabet. If not, then they'll likely be quite willing to let you use whatever form you want to use, as long as you are consistent from that point forward. And though I do not know the law on thi point for sure, they might even be willing to allow you to have different last names according to your traditions. I have seen even native English speakers with different last names in the same family for various reasons, so I don't see why this would be a big problem.

But again, to be safe, I'd still verify with the authorities to be sure.
 
numbnuts
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

I don't know his nationality, but different cultures approach the family name quite differently. In some it's the first name, in others the last name; in some it changes from generation to generation, or there in fact is no family name as we'd think of it since it's merely a matter of adopting the father's given name, which would mean that the 'family name' of the child is different from that of the father, which in tern is different from that of the grandfather, etc.
So when a person moves elsewhere, the rules may be so incompatible he's forced to make some decisions. I get the impression this is what's happening now. His traditional form is incompatible with our required legal forms and so he's trying to decide what form to adopt as a new compatible form that would come closest to maintaining his traditional form. We face the same problems abroad. I myself had to adopt a couple of different names, one short two-character name, based on my first name in French, but with the first part forming my 'family' name and the second part my 'given name', in conformity with standard Chinese norms, I'd use for signing documents; and a 'full-form' version based on my complete series of names in French, comprising a series of 8 characters interspersed with standard Chinese punctuation dots which I'd used for official ID. This second form was obviously simply a Sinification of my French names, which I'd used only within formal and legal contexts.

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
No matter what culture someone is, a person would/should know his culture.
 
Machjo
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by numbnutsView Post

No matter what culture someone is, a person would/should know his culture.

When translating a name from one language and culture to another, knowing the original language and culture of the name is not enough. You also need to know the language and culture into which you intend to translate the name. And even that is not enough. You also need to know how to translate from one to the other.
 
Kathie Bondar
#14
If I had a name like that I would go cold turkey and legally change my name to Smith. Believe me, your life in Canada will be very very much simpler.
 
Machjo
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by Kathie BondarView Post

If I had a name like that I would go cold turkey and legally change my name to Smith. Believe me, your life in Canada will be very very much simpler.

It's not just a matter of simplicity, but culture too.

When I'd moved to China, I'd first merely characterized my French name but keeping it the same otherwise. Since it was too long for most Chinese, I'd eventually made a completely Sinified name out of my first name. However, for all legal purposes, name cards, contracts, etc. etc. etc. I continued to use my complete characterized first name, using the shorter Chinese form only as a colloquial form. I still felt like keeping an attachment to my original name. It's not all a matter of efficiency but culture too. We're not robots.

One solution for him could be similar, whereby the legal name he chooses, the one he uses for himself being the same as or similar to his original name, while allowing for a colloquial form for less formal contexts with friends and such which would be more 'Frenchified' for Quebec.
 
hnagy
#16
So, for Natalie, the family name will be "Morkos Megaly"
and for Joelle, it will be "Morkos".
Both are the same as their passports and Birth certificates.
The questions is, is it OK for sisters to have different family name (they are still kids)?
 
Machjo
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by hnagyView Post

So, for Natalie, the family name will be "Morkos Megaly"
and for Joelle, it will be "Morkos".
Both are the same as their passports and Birth certificates.
The questions is, is it OK for sisters to have different family name (they are still kids)?

I'm not aware of any law against that, but again, confirm with the appropriate authorities. Culturally though, no one would think twice about it, nor find it strange.
 
hnagy
#18
Dear All,
I'm the same person who posted this. Now I'm in Canada for almost 3 years my friends.
Really, thank you all for the time you have given to me and my case.
I've changed the family name to be "Megaly" for all of us before doing the immigration papers; that saved a lot of time and hassle.
Wowww, time is passing very FAST guys.

Thanks again,
Hatem Megaly
 
JLM
#19
[QUOTE=hnagy;1296425] XXXX
 
Curious Cdn
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by hnagyView Post

Dear all, kindly help me .
My name is "Hatem Nagy Morkos Megaly",
I have 2 daughters, their passports states their names as below:
"Natalie Hatem Nagy Morkos Megaly"
"Joelle Hatem Nagy Morkos "
I am preparing my papers and forms to immigrate to Quebec,
but i don't know what to write in the "family name" filed.
mine, will be Megaly, can i write "Morkos" for both of them?
please advise

Best Regards
Hatem

They won't like you in Quebec unless you are actually genetically French. You will not have that problem anywhere else in the Americas, though.
 

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