Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Kakato

#1Dec 28th, 2009

Once again the natives are finding out that some people care more about the wildlife then the people.
CBC News - North - Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Quote:

Aboriginal hunters who defy the N.W.T. government's ban on caribou hunting could find themselves facing an uphill legal battle, says an expert on native rights.
Ken Coates, an historian who wrote a book about the Marshall Decision — which established native fishing rights in Canada — said the Aboriginal right to hunt is protected by the Constitution.
But previous court decisions show those rights can be trumped by a government when conservation is the issue.
He says any legal challenge would likely come down to science versus traditional knowledge.

Quote:

But Dene National Chief Bill Erasmus said the decision to ban aboriginal hunters from going after caribou is inappropriate.
"They're proposing to restrict us, restrict our way of life," said Erasmus, adding the taking of caribou is a treaty right that cannot be denied an aboriginal hunter. He said other chiefs agree with this position.
"Our chiefs, they're encouraging their people to go hunting. Go for ptarmigans, go for rabbits, if you see caribou and you need some, take what you need."

lone wolf

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

I remember being held up for two days in Yellowknife due to a migrating caribou herd. How do numbers like that come to be threatened in just under two decades?

countryboy

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

I am curious about something, and please don't take it as a negative question. I wonder how many natives throughout Canada actually rely on traditional hunting as a primary food source? Reason I ask is that I see news clips from the north on people going shopping at the local store for food. Mind you, this could be only for certain foodstuffs, but it did bring up the question in my mind.

I'm not arguing the point about traditional hunting rights, I'm just wondering how big a problem it really is?

Johnnny

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf

I remember being held up for two days in Yellowknife due to a migrating caribou herd. How do numbers like that come to be threatened in just under two decades?

i remember hearing about a brain worm that has killed alot, but there are other factors

Kakato

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf

I remember being held up for two days in Yellowknife due to a migrating caribou herd. How do numbers like that come to be threatened in just under two decades?

That's a different herd,some herds have grown and some have dropped population.
I wonder what the wolf and fox population is like right now in that area.Seems like it's a cycle,when the herd gets small the predators have smaller litters and the herd replenishs.
The Beverly and Dorothy herds were huge last I saw them,caribou as far as the eye can see.

Kakato

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by countryboy

I am curious about something, and please don't take it as a negative question. I wonder how many natives throughout Canada actually rely on traditional hunting as a primary food source? Reason I ask is that I see news clips from the north on people going shopping at the local store for food. Mind you, this could be only for certain foodstuffs, but it did bring up the question in my mind.

I'm not arguing the point about traditional hunting rights, I'm just wondering how big a problem it really is?

With very few jobs hunting is an occupation for lots of people for the furs.
Plus the prices in the northern store are about double what they are in the south and food shortages can happen if the barges dont come in the summer as lots get frozen in or when resupply by air cant be done for ground blizzards.
It's also a way of life and they like to keep the traditions alive because it can mean their survival if lost out on the tundra which happens lots.
I find in the smaller communities every one hunts and not much is wasted.

countryboy

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Kakato

With very few jobs hunting is an occupation for lots of people for the furs.
Plus the prices in the northern store are about double what they are in the south and food shortages can happen if the barges dont come in the summer as lots get frozen in or when resupply by air cant be done for ground blizzards.
It's also a way of life and they like to keep the traditions alive because it can mean their survival if lost out on the tundra which happens lots.
I find in the smaller communities every one hunts and not much is wasted.

That makes sense. I used to hunt and trap with some local natives in Manitoba when I was a teenager but I wasn't sure how things had changed over the years. Sounds to me like hunting is critical for natives, particularly further north. A bonus for them is that the quality of the food (meat) has got to be better than anything they'd buy which is imported from "civilization."

I'd say the animal activists should mind their own business and stay out of the native hunting issue...just my opinion.

lone wolf

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

Those same environuts claim bears aren't becoming a greater nuisance in Ontario

dumpthemonarchy

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

Traditional hunting rights in the modern world? Who's kidding who here? The modern world requires management, even if it seems like it doesn't work because we are altering the environment in many negative ways.

Sure, natives will hunt like nothing has changed for hundreds of years. How do they get so oblivious? Maybe its being told they are a "third order of government" and they really think they have power. They have the internet and aboriginal hunting rights. Hmmm, something doesn't jive here.

Kakato

#10

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchy

Traditional hunting rights in the modern world? Who's kidding who here? The modern world requires management, even if it seems like it doesn't work because we are altering the environment in many negative ways.

Sure, natives will hunt like nothing has changed for hundreds of years. How do they get so oblivious? Maybe its being told they are a "third order of government" and they really think they have power. They have the internet and aboriginal hunting rights. Hmmm, something doesn't jive here.

The area in question isnt exactly what I would call the modern world.
The furs arent just sold to agents,allmost all caribou and bear skins are made into clothes,the modern worlds winter gear wont cut it.
I know when i can see caribou to the horizon and catch a 35 pound lake trout every third cast that the animals are doing fine.

YukonJack

#11

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

Native hunting rights minus snowmobiles, high-speed rifles, refrigerators, freezers and all the other gifts of the so-called NON-NATIVES and I am all for it.

dumpthemonarchy

#12

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

The idea is not stop natives or anyone else from hunting and fishing completely, but to regulate what is ultimately a limited resource. Look up cod fishery.

Maybe they are so Canadian, these natives in our home and native land, completely oblivious to the world. They want all the tech and luxuries, but none of the responsibliites. Ya gotta love it.

Kakato

#13

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchy

The idea is not stop natives or anyone else from hunting and fishing completely, but to regulate what is ultimately a limited resource. Look up cod fishery.

Maybe they are so Canadian, these natives in our home and native land, completely oblivious to the world. They want all the tech and luxuries, but none of the responsibliites. Ya gotta love it.

Theres no lack of wildlife in the north,you cant compare it to the cod fishery.
As for high tech,most use dog teams to hunt(they still run at -50),store their food in outside caches,we gave them the guns when we relocated them up their to look after our sovierghnity.
They use the furs to make clothing and the fat is used in the winter to heat their iglus for ice fishing.The ice fishing holes are all dug by hand in ice allmost ten feet thick.
A caribou horn is used as a rod.

High tech may work in the civilized world but not so good up there,they only got cel phones north of hudsons bay last year.

dumpthemonarchy

#14

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Kakato

Theres no lack of wildlife in the north,you cant compare it to the cod fishery.
As for high tech,most use dog teams to hunt(they still run at -50),store their food in outside caches,we gave them the guns when we relocated them up their to look after our sovierghnity.
They use the furs to make clothing and the fat is used in the winter to heat their iglus for ice fishing.The ice fishing holes are all dug by hand in ice allmost ten feet thick.
A caribou horn is used as a rod.

High tech may work in the civilized world but not so good up there,they only got cel phones north of hudsons bay last year.

The cod off the east coast used to be six feet long. And there used to be 20-200 million buffalo. Even THE NORTH is part of the Earth. And the interweb thingy is everywhere. Global, even.

Johnnny

#15

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

when people talk about the natives using chain saws, and snowmachines to track down deer they talk about the ones living close to the city that own cars, in which case i might agree with them...

kakato has a point the inuit up north do in fact live off the land and maybe a compromise should be met

AnnaG

#16

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

I don't particularly care one way or the other, but I do frown upon natives that abuse the "right". I was offered a rather largish sockeye salmon at the coast one time for a $15 by a native. He had no way of knowing if I was aboriginal, Hindu, or black Irish. That told me that he wasn't catching fish to feed his family. I can imagine the same sort of incidence concerning other game.

Kakato

#17

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchy

The cod off the east coast used to be six feet long. And there used to be 20-200 million buffalo. Even THE NORTH is part of the Earth. And the interweb thingy is everywhere. Global, even.

The buffaloe were decimated from mass commercial hunting.
The cod stocks were decimated from massive commercial fishing.

Caribou are hunted for their fur,fat and meat.None is sold down south.

And most only got the internet thingy a couple years ago.

Cliffy

#18

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 28th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf

Those same environuts claim bears aren't becoming a greater nuisance in Ontario

Bears aren't a nuisance. People are. If we lived in harmony with our environment we wouldn't be using up 100 times more resources than we need. Our lifestyle requires that we destroy our life support system and that of every other living thing. Wildlife does not need managing, "civilized "people do. We are the only species that is out of sync with the whole of creation.

dumpthemonarchy

#19

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 31st, 2009

There's always two issues mixed up here.

1. Why do aboriginals have more rights to fish/hunt than the rest of us? This violates our civic nationalism which is not based on race, but aboriginal rights are based on race. I can't become a Cree or Mohawk citizen tomorrow. The only citizens in Canada are Canadian citizens. Says so right on the passport.

2. These aboriginal rights may grow and consume more fish than is required for bare survival, which they already have as many aboriginals sell the fish they catch. This violate the spirit and letter of what aborginal rights are all about. Aboriginal rights as most understand them are about bare survival, about living the way they lived in the past, which is gone.

Kakato

#20

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 31st, 2009

We signed treatys with them,they were here first and hunting and fishing are how they survived so it was put into the treaty.

Some do abuse it though big time.

dumpthemonarchy

#21

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 31st, 2009

And big time are the salaries lawyers and leaders are getting keeping this corrupt regime alive. It is second rate regional development for poor rural people. And I say fix UI so the underemployed (read lazy white people) in Atlantic Canada start getting real jobs too.

Kakato

#22

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchy

And big time are the salaries lawyers and leaders are getting keeping this corrupt regime alive. It is second rate regional development for poor rural people. And I say fix UI so the underemployed (read lazy white people) in Atlantic Canada start getting real jobs too.

Ralph Klien would be proud.

dumpthemonarchy

#23

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 31st, 2009

Ralphie spend a fair bit of time playing golf too. Better than spending it with lobbyists who corrupt our system. All the energy Atlantic Cdns spend trying to evade work is a shame really. We all pay for this corruption.

Regional development schemes don't work. The money would be far better spent on the homeless who really need it.

taxslave

#24

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by YukonJack

Native hunting rights minus snowmobiles, high-speed rifles, refrigerators, freezers and all the other gifts of the so-called NON-NATIVES and I am all for it.

This is a problem all right. Natives are allowed to do a "traditional" hunt with scoped rifles with attached flashlights. Same with the native food fishery which is done with modern seine boats and lots are sold to non natives. Where or where did that little salmon go......

ironsides

#25

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 31st, 2009

Even the native tribes want to destroy their lands.

Mining could spark outcry

BY DAVID FLESHLER

The Seminole Tribe has applied for a permit to expand a rock mine in a remote corner of northwest Broward County in a proposal that could generate opposition from environmentalists concerned about the Florida panther.
The tribe has asked the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for permission to destroy 198 acres of wetlands to mine limestone on its Big Cypress Reservation, a place of pastures, forests and wetlands where panthers hunt deer, hogs and other prey.
The rock would be used mainly to rebuild a bridge, widen shoulders and make other safety improvements to Snake Road, a notoriously dangerous road that winds through the reservation.
But the project could face a fight from conservationists concerned about the construction of housing developments, roads andother developmentsin the endangeredcat's shrinking hab-itat.
``The panther is getting squeezed,'' said Matthew Schwartz, Everglades chairman of the Broward Group of the Sierra Club, who has led hikes through the area and seen panther tracks. ``Each development may not be the final nail in the coffin, but it's the cumulative impact. It's not just the rock mine, it's the residential development on the western side of Big Cypress.''
The Corps of Engineers plans to seek an opinion from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service on the likely impact on the panther. But many environmentalists have little faith in the government's willingness to stop or restrict projects that could threaten the endangered cat.
Although rock mining typically involves blasting, no explosives would be used for this one, according to the Corps of Engineers. Using a backhoe, the tribe's workers would mine in strips 20 feet deep, 200 feet wide and 2,195 feet long, leaving behind rock pitlakes.
To mitigate the loss of wetlands, a federal requirement, they have proposed making improvements to 736 acres of existingwetlands on thewest side of the reservation, which the tribe says will improve the habitat for panthers and endangered wood storks.
--

Kakato

#26

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Dec 31st, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave

This is a problem all right. Natives are allowed to do a "traditional" hunt with scoped rifles with attached flashlights. Same with the native food fishery which is done with modern seine boats and lots are sold to non natives. Where or where did that little salmon go......

The article has more to do with the northern natives and their right to hunt which they do for sustenance,theres not many kabluna's(white guys) around and if they had money they wouldnt be buying poached meat or fish with it.

They do hunt at night in the winter but it's 24 hour darkness so they have no choice.

This is not like you see near the west coast where they poach and fish for monetary reasons.

Niflmir

#27

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Jan 1st, 2010

Well, technically the natives are not Canadian citizens according to the treaties. We also have international obligations to protect wildlife in our country.

Ergo, we have no choice but to protect our wildlife from the natives if they will not be responsible themselves. We have no obligations to a sovereign power that scoffs international agreements. Of course that is an if, I really don't care to dig up any evidence.

dumpthemonarchy

#28

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Jan 13th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Niflmir

Well, technically the natives are not Canadian citizens according to the treaties. We also have international obligations to protect wildlife in our country.

Ergo, we have no choice but to protect our wildlife from the natives if they will not be responsible themselves. We have no obligations to a sovereign power that scoffs international agreements. Of course that is an if, I really don't care to dig up any evidence.

Technically. Hmmm. They live in what is now called Canada. They get large amounts of tax revenue from Canadians. Yet Canada, in their "culture" does not exist. How long with these technicalities prevent us from doing the obvious? This legal game that feeds lawyers and delusions has got to end.

Treaties divide Canadians by race and I don't like my tax money supporting this.

gerryh

#29

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Jan 13th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchy

Technically. Hmmm. They live in what is now called Canada. They get large amounts of tax revenue from Canadians. Yet Canada, in their "culture" does not exist. How long with these technicalities prevent us from doing the obvious? This legal game that feeds lawyers and delusions has got to end.

Treaties divide Canadians by race and I don't like my tax money supporting this.

Your tax dollars are paying for the right to use this land. Don't like the idea of paying the rightfull owners, you know where the door is.

bobnoorduyn

#30

Re: Native hunting rights sometimes trumped, expert says

Jan 13th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

Your tax dollars are paying for the right to use this land. Don't like the idea of paying the rightfull owners, you know where the door is.

Unfortunately the rightful owner is the Crown, landowners don't even own their land. We all have to live under some rule of law, and for all its warts, British common law is far better than the law of the jungle, where real estate aquisition is done by force and genocide. Britain was guilty of this in the past, for sure, and my ancesters were not very successful at righting this wrong, or getting their land back either. We have to start having everyone live under the same system of law if we ever want to live with any modicum of peace.

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