What's right about our health-care system

#juan

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What's right about our health-care system

by Robert Evans and Noralou Roos Economics Prof. Robert Evans is a director of population health with UBC's Canadian Institute for Advanced Research; Noralou Roos is co-director of the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation. The following appeared recently in The Toronto Star.
Canadians are remarkably masochistic. Year after year, the United Nations says Canada is the most liveable country in the world, yet we seem to discuss nothing but how to dismember it.
Canada has one of the world's most successful health-care systems, yet we cannot shake the belief that, despite all evidence, the grass is always greener south of the border.
While our fundamentally sound system has some problems, we dwell on them and insistently look for magical fixes from the Americans, whose health-care system is generally recognized to be among the least satisfactory in the developed world.
The truth is there is no shortage of good news about the Canadian health-care system; why we hear this so rarely is something that should concern us.
For example, Canadians are healthy. On average, we are among the healthiest peoples in the world, and are becoming healthier. Wide variations exist by region and social group, and we rightly hear much about these. But the overall health of Canadians is high and rising.
In particular, on the standard measures of life expectancy and infant mortality, we outperform the U.S. The U.S. has eight infant deaths per 1,000 live births -- in the same leagues with the Czech Republic and Greece -- while Canada has six per 1,000.
Canadians also live longer and our advantage is growing. From 1990 to 1995, the gap in life expectancy between Canadian and American males grew from two to 2.8 years; for women, it went from 1.6 to 1.9 years.
Different health-care systems are not the whole, or even the principal, explanation for Canadians' better health. The whole American social environment is more brutal for the less successful. In simple economic terms, for example, everyone knows that Americans enjoy higher incomes, on average, than do Canadians.
So while the rich in America are much richer, the poor are much poorer than their Canadian counterparts. In 1995, while the top 20 per cent of U.S. families were substantially better off than their Canadian counterparts, most of the rest were absolutely worse off. The difference is largely attributable to Canada's tax-financed social programs.
There is strong evidence of a link between income distribution and overall health status -- non-egalitarian societies, like the American, that concentrate wealth in the hands of a few, tend to be unhealthy.
But obviously health care also matters, and the Canadian health-care system is very good at getting care to the people who need it, whether or not they can pay.
Cross-border studies suggest that both Canadian and American systems serve people in middle- and upper-income groups well, but that there are marked differences in access for people with lower incomes.
It would be very surprising if this were not so. About 40 million Americans have no insurance at all, and those who do increasingly face larger user fees.
So Canada does a better job of looking after poor people, and getting what care there is to where it is needed most. But most of us are not poor. Aren't we being shortchanged by an underfunded system that is simply incapable of meeting all our needs? The U.S. may not distribute care equitably, but at least it delivers the goods, and ours does not. Or does it?
Americans certainly spend a lot more on health care than we do or than anyone else in the world. One-seventh of their national income, 14.2 per cent, goes to health care, compared with 9.2 per cent in Canada, and eight to 10 per cent in most developed countries. This works out to $3,708 per capita yearly, compared with $2,002 (US) spent in Canada.
It is not that Canada spends so little, it's that the U.S. spends so much. To match these levels, Canada would have to add $45 billion a year to our health-care spending.
But do we really want to do that? The truth of the matter is that more money does not necessarily buy more health care, any more than it buys more health.
Americans do not receive more hospital care and they don't receive more physician services, though they pay a lot more for what they do get. (Yes, their rates of some types of surgical procedures are higher, but overall, Canadians get more surgery.)
Americans do not get higher quality care for their money; follow-up studies of patients on both sides of the border usually show similar outcomes. There is no clear advantage to either side.
The Canadian health-care system is also remarkably efficient.
A universal, comprehensive, tax-financed public insurance system with negotiated fee schedules is administratively lean. The American multi-payer system with diverse and complex coverage restrictions and elaborate forms of user payments is fat.
The American private insurance bureaucracy is huge; its excess administrative costs, compared with a Canadian approach, are estimated to be between 10 percent and 15 per cent of total system costs -- that is, well over $100 billion (US) per year.
But what about the "Canadian problem" -- waiting lists? In the U.S., people without money or insurance do not even get on a waiting list. Access is rationed by ability to pay, not by waiting. (They may be able to get care at some public facilities, but then they wait.)
If the Canadian waiting lists indicate a problem, it is not one for which the Americans have an acceptable solution. Canada could do a better job of managing patients waiting for surgery. Most provinces don't have systems in place to prioritize patients.
However, reviews of waiting lists in Canada have found the system to provide immediate access for emergency cases, and rapid access for urgent care. Since there have been remarkable increases in the numbers of cataract, bypass, hip and knee procedures performed in Canada in recent years, rationing of care here is not a real issue.
Claims of excessive waiting lists are the political theatre of publicly funded health care everywhere in the world. In fact, when asked, most Canadians on waiting lists do not find their waits problematic.
Claims of underfunding play an obvious role in the bargaining process between providers and governments. The former cry "More money for health!" when they mean higher incomes for providers.
Why, then, do American notions keep pushing north? There is a great deal of money to be made by wrecking Medicare.
All the excess costs of an American- style payment system represent higher incomes for the insurance industry and for providers of care. The extra $45 billion it would cost us to match American expenditure patterns is a big enough carrot to motivate those who promote the illusion of American superiority.
So what's really right about the Canadian health-care system? Well, compared to the American, just about everything. We do have problems but the Americans don't have the solutions.




http://www.publicaffairs.ubc.ca/ubcreports/1999/99feb18/99feb18for.html
 
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#juan

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Over the course of my life so far, I've had broken limbs, torn cartilages, and heart surgery. I have never had a problem with our health care system. I know there are waits for some surgeries but those waits are going down. The above article lays out the differences between the American and the Canadian systems very well. It is enough to say that the Americans don't get the value for money that we do.
 

triedit

inimitable
I had US healthcare for 38 years and Canadian for 7. Hands down, Canadian health care sucks ass. At least in Ontario.

National health care makes much more sense. One card with a chip so you can go anywhere and your records are instantly available to the provider. Oh, and mental health care, that would be a nice improvement.

One of the things these sorts of studies don't factor in is that the term "health care' is different for the two countries. In the US, "health care" involves teeth, physio, all vaccines, psychology, and prescriptions. None of those is covered in Ontario. Can't speak for the other provinces.
 

#juan

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I had US healthcare for 38 years and Canadian for 7. Hands down, Canadian health care sucks ass. At least in Ontario.

National health care makes much more sense. One card with a chip so you can go anywhere and your records are instantly available to the provider. Oh, and mental health care, that would be a nice improvement.

One of the things these sorts of studies don't factor in is that the term "health care' is different for the two countries. In the US, "health care" involves teeth, physio, all vaccines, psychology, and prescriptions. None of those is covered in Ontario. Can't speak for the other provinces.

Out of curiosity, What are the comparative costs of the premiums for Ontario and wherever in the states you are talking about? What would it cost in your state for a five week stay in hospital? I started this thread as a positive note on Canadian health care not as a bloody competition. There is no doubt in my mind which system is better, and which is most likely to drive you into bankruptcy.
 

#juan

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I had US healthcare for 38 years and Canadian for 7. Hands down, Canadian health care sucks ass. At least in Ontario.

According to whom?
 

jjaycee98

Electoral Member
Jan 27, 2006
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We lived in the US also

I had US healthcare for 38 years and Canadian for 7. Hands down, Canadian health care sucks ass. At least in Ontario.

National health care makes much more sense. One card with a chip so you can go anywhere and your records are instantly available to the provider. Oh, and mental health care, that would be a nice improvement.

One of the things these sorts of studies don't factor in is that the term "health care' is different for the two countries. In the US, "health care" involves teeth, physio, all vaccines, psychology, and prescriptions. None of those is covered in Ontario. Can't speak for the other provinces.

So what "Health Care" did you have? There is no such thing as national health care. Even Medicare has a premium and alot of people don't qualify.

We had private coverage ( through Georgia-Pacific) that would not cover pre-existing conditions. Husband had a blood clot from a Highschool Football injury and was not covered by anything that could be construed to be connected to that. And that is one reason why we moved to Canada (I am Canadian-born in SK)

We had a Premature baby and they would not cover anything beyond the Birth and the Hospital stay only as long as I was there (2 days) In 1966 the bill was $6300. Would be 10 times that now. That is the other reason we moved to Canada.

One thing that was smart with this coverage was that you paid for the first appointment and then they covered, if it was ongoing. Doctors offices look like Playschool on Mondays. Meet and greet place for Moms with Tots. I personally would have no problem with some user fees.
 

triedit

inimitable
My medical coverage was free because I had a family income of less than $24,000. I lived 30 minutes from 5 different trauma centers and two heart centers. I never waited more than a week to see a doctor and never spent more than a few hours in and er. Even when I needed a CT scan we were out of there fairly quickly. With chest pain they kept me overnight just in case. Here in Canada there is a THREE YEAR waiting list for my son to see a pediatric psychologist for his learning disorder. Plus we paid for everything (out of pocket and through our work coverage) when he was born right here in Scarborough because of a paperwork logjam. I had been a legal Ontario resident 7 months when he was born.

We worked out the numbers. To purchase insurance privately in the states comes out to less than ten dollars more than what we already pay in increased taxes, surcharges, uncovered items, and our additional private "top up" insurance.

In my experience, this is not a system that works. Also, they don't take volunteers at any of the local hospitals for things like data entry or patient affairs--the union won't allow it. And every hospital I have seen has been HORRIBLY inefficient with manpower.

It may be wonderful in other parts of Canada and it may suck in othre parts of the US. I don't think you can really compare the two because they have different goals.

But for me, paying an insurance premium of $400 a month is doable if taxes are reduced 10% and the surcharge and additional insurance costs go away...
 

#juan

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My medical coverage was free because I had a family income of less than $24,000. I lived 30 minutes from 5 different trauma centers and two heart centers. I never waited more than a week to see a doctor and never spent more than a few hours in and er. Even when I needed a CT scan we were out of there fairly quickly. With chest pain they kept me overnight just in case. Here in Canada there is a THREE YEAR waiting list for my son to see a pediatric psychologist for his learning disorder. Plus we paid for everything (out of pocket and through our work coverage) when he was born right here in Scarborough because of a paperwork logjam. I had been a legal Ontario resident 7 months when he was born.

We worked out the numbers. To purchase insurance privately in the states comes out to less than ten dollars more than what we already pay in increased taxes, surcharges, uncovered items, and our additional private "top up" insurance.

In my experience, this is not a system that works. Also, they don't take volunteers at any of the local hospitals for things like data entry or patient affairs--the union won't allow it. And every hospital I have seen has been HORRIBLY inefficient with manpower.

It may be wonderful in other parts of Canada and it may suck in othre parts of the US. I don't think you can really compare the two because they have different goals.

But for me, paying an insurance premium of $400 a month is doable if taxes are reduced 10% and the surcharge and additional insurance costs go away...

So far you've said that the Canadian medical system "sucks ass", you've said every hospital you've seen was "horribly inefficient", You've said there was a three year waiting list to see a pediatric psychologist. Now you want to pay $400.00 per month as a health care premium. I find it amazing that you can criticize our system when in the American system, a large number of bankruptcies come about because of your medical system, or lack of it.. Our system has flaws but as the article said, "Americans don't have the answers".
 

tracy

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ARGH!! I don't understand this argument all the time. There will be individual horror stories in each system. That doesn't make either system bad.

I've lived and worked in both. I don't see a huge difference in patient care. The only question is how it's paid for.
 

tracy

House Member
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So far you've said that the Canadian medical system "sucks ass", you've said every hospital you've seen was "horribly inefficient", You've said there was a three year waiting list to see a pediatric psychologist. Now you want to pay $400.00 per month as a health care premium. I find it amazing that you can criticize our system when in the American system, a large number of bankruptcies come about because of your medical system, or lack of it.. Our system has flaws but as the article said, "Americans don't have the answers".

Laws have changed. Health care bills will no longer be wiped out by declaring bankruptcy.
 

tracy

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One of the things these sorts of studies don't factor in is that the term "health care' is different for the two countries. In the US, "health care" involves teeth, physio, all vaccines, psychology, and prescriptions. None of those is covered in Ontario. Can't speak for the other provinces.

My insurance doesn't cover any of those things. There are so many different plans in the US that it's impossible to make a blanket statement about what they cover.
 

triedit

inimitable
Tracy--Exactly. Apples and Oranges.

Juan, Im not saying the US has the answer. Im just not seeing the same things "right" with the Canadian system that the article states. It's not fair to EITHER country to say one is best or even better.

I am saying the Canadian healthcare system isn't what the other nations think it is. It isn't great. It's adequate for basic needs. And even that varies from province to province. FOR ME, it's the worst care I've ever gotten, including military hospitals in the states.

When George Bush was re-elected, many of my friends and family seriously considered immigrating north. One of the things they always thought would be great was the healthcare. Til they found out it didnt' cover eyes, teeth, psychicatrics, prescriptions, etc and that there was a 6 month wait to get approved (if the paperwork is on schedule) and on top of that you were charged $600 a year on top of the 30% tax base. Add to that it costs $15 to get a work absence note signed (in addition to what they get paid by OHIP) and that not all vaccines are covered.

Canada can do better.

ETA: Canadians go broke seeking healthcare too. The waiting list for Cancer treatment in Ontario is so long that most go to NY and pay for care out of pocket--mortgaging thier home, using up savings, etc. If the care isnt available, cost doesnt even factor in.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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I can only imagine what healthcare would be like in a place like South Africa these days. Half of our doctors are from South Africa.
 

Toro

Senate Member
Wait, here they are.

Canadians pay about 9% of national GDP to insure 100% of citizens in our single-payer system, compared with more than 14% of GDP to insure 85% of Americans. The Kaiser Family Foundation reports that the average compound annual growth rate in U.S. health insurance costs has been 11.6% over the past five years. It is therefore not surprising that polling by Kaiser found that 75% of Americans were worried or very worried about the amount they would need to pay for health insurance in the future and that 63% were worried or very worried about not being able to afford health-care services.

There is no question that restriction of supply with sub-optimal access to services has contributed to the lower cost of health care in Canada. However, a new approach of targeting investments to reduce waiting times combined with transparent reporting of wait times is having a substantial impact on access in the Canadian system. Dr. Gratzer wrote about prolonged waits for treatment in Ontario but did not refer readers to the public Web sites that detail Ontario waiting times for cancer surgery, chemotherapy, radiation, cataract, heart, arthroplasty and imaging procedures:


(http://www.health.gov.on.ca/transformation/wait_times/wait_mn.html
and http://www.cancercare.on.ca)

Canadians spend about 55% of what Americans spend on health care and have longer life expectancy, and lower infant mortality rates. Many Americans have access to quality health care. All Canadians have access to similar care at a considerably lower cost.

Robert S. Bell, M.D.
President and CEO
University Health Network
Toronto


...

The introduction of private insurance or private-for-profit health care for medically necessary services is not the answer to challenges in the Canadian health-care system. In a systematic review of 38 studies published in Open Medicine in May, 17 leading Canadian and U.S. researchers confirmed the Canadian system leads to health outcomes as good, or better, than the U.S. private system, at less than 50% of the cost.


Unwanted side-effects of competitive health care include a drain of highly trained professionals from the public system and "cream skimming" of patients by private clinics who choose the healthiest patients, leaving the most complex to the increasingly overburdened public system.


In June 2006, the Canadian Medical Association reviewed all the evidence from other jurisdictions and concluded that private insurance for medically necessary physician and hospital services does not improve access to publicly insured services; does not lower costs or improve quality of care; can increase wait times for those who are not privately insured; and, could exacerbate human resource shortages in the public system.


Medicare is not only more equitable, but more efficient and produces higher quality health care than the alternatives. This conclusion is supported by the best national and international evidence, including reports from the World Health Organization and the Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development.


Danielle Martin
Board Chair
Canadian Doctors for Medicare
Toronto

And a letter condemning it


It is easy to refute the claim in "Sicko" that the Canadian health care system is superior to the U. S. one. It is simple for citizens of either country to cross the border for health care, but no Americans are eager to get care in the socialized Canadian system. The traffic seeking health care is all in the other direction.

Thomas Cusick

SUNY Department of Mathematics
Buffalo, N.Y.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118394504633260585.html?mod=todays_us_page_one
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
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It is easy to refute the claim in "Sicko" that the Canadian health care system is superior to the U. S. one. It is simple for citizens of either country to cross the border for health care, but no Americans are eager to get care in the socialized Canadian system. The traffic seeking health care is all in the other direction.

Thomas Cusick

SUNY Department of Mathematics
Buffalo, N.Y.

Except for the 45 plus million Americans who have no health insurance and the milions more who have partial coverage and lose their homes then go bankrupt if they get sick.

If we gave health care to any Tom Dick or Harry there would be line ups at the border and you know it money boy.

If the private sector is so much more efficient than the public one why does the U.S. spend more of it's GDP on health? Perhaps the viel has been lifted on the so called superiority of the private sector.

The fact remains that the U.S. has the poorest access to health care of the G8 and France has the best......FRANCE!
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
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48
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ETA: Canadians go broke seeking healthcare too. The waiting list for Cancer treatment in Ontario is so long that most go to NY and pay for care out of pocket--mortgaging thier home, using up savings, etc. If the care isnt available, cost doesnt even factor in.

I would love to see some proof of that. I seriously doubt most cancer patients are flocking to NY for care. A nurse I worked with in California actually went back to Ontario for cancer treatment. My mom has been treated in BC for cervical, ovarian and bladder cancer.
 

Pangloss

Council Member
Mar 16, 2007
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Yeah, sorry to the Americans, but I call B.S.

I've lived in the States for a few years, and in Latin America, and now I'm back in Canada, and yup, U.S. healthcare is run for profit, not public health, and the consequences are obvious.

You don't wanna see it, your problem. Stay in the States and more of your kids will die, and you'll die sooner, on average.

Kinda makes everything else pale in comparison, eh?

Pangloss
 

Toro

Senate Member
I would love to see some proof of that. I seriously doubt most cancer patients are flocking to NY for care. A nurse I worked with in California actually went back to Ontario for cancer treatment. My mom has been treated in BC for cervical, ovarian and bladder cancer.

When my grandfather moved to BC, he had to wait 5 months before seeing an onocologist, 3 months of that was the residency requirement. It was two more months after because my father knew the oncologist in his Rotary club. Otherwise it would have been longer still.