Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Machjo

#1Jun 30th, 2011

We often hear Americans and Frenchmen and how they take such pride in their constitutions(especially Americans and how they always cite it when referring to a particular right), or how the Universal Declaration of Human Rights has influenced the bills of rights and constitutions of many nations since, including the Canadian one.

But how often do you hear a Canadian beat his chest about the BNA Act and how it guarantees Catholics certain privileges not afforded others, or how our monarch is protected from "Popishness" by being prohibited from marrying a Catholic (kind of ironic seeing that we then guarantee Catholics special privileges in some provinces), etc.?

Should we be more proud of our constitution like Americans and Frenchmen are proud of theirs? Why don't we puff with pride at our unique separate school system and Anglican-guaranteed monarch?

Cliffy

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jun 30th, 2011

Perhaps because we don't really have one. The BNA was a private members bill in the British parliament, not really a constitution and Trudeau's constitution was not agreed to by Quebec or ratified by Canadians. As far as I'm concerned we don't have one, so nothing to be proud of.

taxslave

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jun 30th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Perhaps because we don't really have one. The BNA was a private members bill in the British parliament, not really a constitution and Trudeaus constitution was not agreed to be Quebec or ratified by Canadians. As far as I'm concerned we don't have one, so nothing to be proud of.

That about sums it up. About the only time I agreed with Quebec too.

Bar Sinister

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jun 30th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Perhaps because we don't really have one. The BNA was a private members bill in the British parliament, not really a constitution and Trudeau's constitution was not agreed to by Quebec or ratified by Canadians. As far as I'm concerned we don't have one, so nothing to be proud of.

Actually since Quebecers are protected by the constitution in the same way as other Canadians it means that the constitution exists whether Quebec approved of it or not. And the rights contained in the constitution are there whether you think they are or not as well.

You might note that the US constitution was not ratified by Americans either; at least not through a general vote. Does that mean it is not valid?

I suspect the reason that Canadians don't make the same sort of fuss out of the constitution as Americans is the same reason Canadians are more refined in their displays of patriotism; namely that Canadians are not Americans and see no reason to emulate them in everything they do. Canadians are simply not into the same sort of chest pounding patriotism that Americans seem to enjoy. So far as France is concerned I have no comment as I don't really know how much attention the average French citizen pays to the constitution.

gerryh

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jun 30th, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

We often hear Americans and Frenchmen and how they take such pride in their constitutions(especially Americans and how they always cite it when referring to a particular right), or how the Universal Declaration of Human Rights has influenced the bills of rights and constitutions of many nations since, including the Canadian one.

But how often do you hear a Canadian beat his chest about the BNA Act and how it guarantees Catholics certain privileges not afforded others, or how our monarch is protected from "Popishness" by being prohibited from marrying a Catholic (kind of ironic seeing that we then guarantee Catholics special privileges in some provinces), etc.?

Should we be more proud of our constitution like Americans and Frenchmen are proud of theirs? Why don't we puff with pride at our unique separate school system and Anglican-guaranteed monarch?

Be interesting to see/hear what in your past resulted in your hatred of Catholicism and Canada's Monarchy.

Machjo

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

Be interesting to see/hear what in your past resulted in your hatred of Catholicism and Canada's Monarchy.

I don't have my mother (a Catholic) nor the Queen. I do believe in equality though, and I'd react the same way whatever religion were given special privilege. Is it that hard to understand?

captain morgan

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

I don't have my mother (a Catholic) nor the Queen. I do believe in equality though, and I'd react the same way whatever religion were given special privilege. Is it that hard to understand?

The problem is that your application of "equality" is skewed... Your commentary would represent real equality if you suggested that each individual rate payer could direct their education portion of their taxes to whatever school they wanted, and yes, this would include denominational, charters and private schools. "Equality" demands that all systems be split out of the equation and that also includes the public system.

The interpretation of your post is that you are unhappy that a separate (Catholic) system receives any funding at all. I'm sure if you asked the parent of a kid that was in the separate system if your 'suggestion' was fair or equal, they would disagree.

Dexter Sinister

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Perhaps because we don't really have one. The BNA was a private members bill in the British parliament,

Who introduced the bill in the British parliament has nothing to do with anything. The bill was drafted by Canadians, mostly at the Quebec Conference of 1864, and passed without amendment in 1867 to create the Dominion of Canada out of some former colonial territories. It's as much a constitution as anything any other nation has. Possibly one reason Canadians don't puff up about it is because they don't know much about it, which leads some to say silly things like, we don't really have a constitution.

wulfie68

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

I was thinking about this, not only in terms of the constitution but also in terms of the flag and the national anthem and why we don't revere them the same way our neighbours to the south do.

Our flag and anthem are only a couple decades old. The US flag was born in their war of independence: its been modified since, but the overall design was set then. Their national anthem was penned in the war of 1812, depciting a moment of stalwart bravery during a rather bleak interlude. By contrast our anthem and flag were adopted in the 60s and 70s amidst some wrangling to displace symbols Quebecers and anti-Empire groups found displeasing. They don't have the same meaning or history.

The same is true of the constitution: it was brought about by the most polarizing leader in the nation's history, never endorsed by Quebec, despite the concessions made to that province, and the next PM in line, immediately tried to fix some of the problems with the first draft but never got anywhere with it. Personally, I don't think it was very well done and reflects too much an attitude of "we have to do this to get it done" rather than do it right. Issues like the inequities granted to the Catholic Church or the way the Charter of Rights and Freedoms ignores property rights of citizens, among other things, I think are bothersome... and thats not getting into the way Quebec has been able to abuse the notwithstanding clause.

petros

#10

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

Quote:

I was thinking about this, not only in terms of the constitution but also in
terms of the flag and the national anthem and why we don't revere them the same
way our neighbours to the south do.

We were'nt indoctrinated to the point of believe a piece of paper and piece of silk can make you bullet proof.

cranky

#11

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

In the US constitution the words 'the government shall not...' are used something like 21 times. The canadian charters has a smug, we are the government, sort of attitude.

petros

#12

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

Well we are the government. We aren't some sort of sub-human that can't fight for rights because we are staring up the barrel of a gun. Some people just have no clue about how to flex and utilize their rights.

WLDB

#13

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan

The interpretation of your post is that you are unhappy that a separate (Catholic) system receives any funding at all. I'm sure if you asked the parent of a kid that was in the separate system if your 'suggestion' was fair or equal, they would disagree.

"
Depends on the parent. I was in that school system til grade 8. My parents know nothing of politics and have never voted. I told my mother last year that I had met Jean Chretien, she said "Who is he?"

It should be all or nothing. Fund all religious schools, or none. That would ensure equality on this question.

ironsides

#14

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquillity, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

We as a people do not oppose this Preamble to the United States Constitution as was mentioned.

gerryh

#15

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

What macho believes is that agreements made should be tossed out the door. He doesn't feel it's nesasary to uphold lawfully binding agreements, unless of course, they are beneficial to him personally.

taxslave

#16

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by WLDB

"
Depends on the parent. I was in that school system til grade 8. My parents know nothing of politics and have never voted. I told my mother last year that I had met Jean Chretien, she said "Who is he?"

It should be all or nothing. Fund all religious schools, or none. That would ensure equality on this question.

Is this different from province to province? As far as I know all private grade schools in BC get some public money.

WLDB

#17

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by taxslave

Is this different from province to province? As far as I know all private grade schools in BC get some public money.

Education is a provincial jurisdiction, so yes.

Machjo

#18

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan

The problem is that your application of "equality" is skewed... Your commentary would represent real equality if you suggested that each individual rate payer could direct their education portion of their taxes to whatever school they wanted, and yes, this would include denominational, charters and private schools. "Equality" demands that all systems be split out of the equation and that also includes the public system.

The interpretation of your post is that you are unhappy that a separate (Catholic) system receives any funding at all. I'm sure if you asked the parent of a kid that was in the separate system if your 'suggestion' was fair or equal, they would disagree.

When did I ever say that? I'd have no issue for example with a voucher programme with any schoool, denominational or not, Catholic or not, being allowed to participate.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

What macho believes is that agreements made should be tossed out the door. He doesn't feel it's nesasary to uphold lawfully binding agreements, unless of course, they are beneficial to him personally.

So I'm assuming you support the idea that the monarch must be a member of the Church of England and that he should be banned from marrying a Catholic, as per the Constitution?

I personally oppose that. Ironic, seeing that I'm supposed to be Popophobic, right?

The Old Medic

#19

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

Bar sisinster, the Constitution of the United States of America WAS ratified by the representatives of the people, elected by the people, in the respective State legislatures. It took effect only when 3/4 of the States had ratified it, and only APPLIED TO THOSE STATES THAT had RATIFIED it. Eventually, all of the original states did ratify the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and as each successive Amendment has come up, the required number of States have ratified them too.

Canada in fact does NOT have a Constitution, per se, at least not a written one. It was never ratified by the requisite Provinces, so it never actually took effect. We have elements of a constitution, but not a complete whole.

Just as Great Britain does not have a written Constitution. In actual fact, the oldest WRITTEN Constitution in the world is the one of the USA.

WLDB

#20

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by The Old Medic

Bar sisinster, the Constitution of the United States of America WAS ratified by the representatives of the people, elected by the people, in the respective State legislatures. It took effect only when 3/4 of the States had ratified it, and only APPLIED TO THOSE STATES THAT had RATIFIED it. Eventually, all of the original states did ratify the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and as each successive Amendment has come up, the required number of States have ratified them too.

Canada in fact does NOT have a Constitution, per se, at least not a written one. It was never ratified by the requisite Provinces, so it never actually took effect. We have elements of a constitution, but not a complete whole.

Indeed, ratified by representatives who represented rich white people. At the time there was still slavery, which had a big chunk of the population, women couldnt vote, freed blacks couldnt vote etc. So it was ratified by a small minority of the people living there.

As for our constitution: -- There it is.

ironsides

#21

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by WLDB

Indeed, ratified by representatives who represented rich white people. At the time there was still slavery, which had a big chunk of the population, women couldnt vote, freed blacks couldnt vote etc. So it was ratified by a small minority of the people living there.

As for our constitution: -- There it is.

Popular vote (Rich ot those who could get to polling place). There were no great populations in those days, so for example 30 people voted Yes for Delaware. The poor farmer as usual could care less, just wanted protection from someone.

U.S. Constitution

1 December, 7, 1787 Delaware 30-0
2 December, 11,1787 Pennsylvania 46-23
3 December 18, 1787 New Jersey 38-0
4 January 2, 1788 Georgia 26-0
5 January 9, 1788 Connecticut 128-40
6. February 6, 1788 Massachusetts 187-168
7. April 26, 1788 Maryland 63-11
8 May 23, 1788 South Carolina 149-73
9. June 21,1788 New Hampshire 57-47
10. June 25, 1788 Virginia 89-79
11. June 26, 1788 New York 30-27
12. November 1, 1788 North Carolina 194-77
13. May 29, 1790 Rhode Island 34-32

gerryh

#22

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

Don't bother wldB, medic doesn't have a clue anout Canada and machjo can't see past his bigotry.

gopher

#23

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 1st, 2011

New Canadian National Anthem:

YouTube - Canadian Please

Bar Sinister

#24

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 2nd, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by The Old Medic

Bar sisinster, the Constitution of the United States of America WAS ratified by the representatives of the people, elected by the people, in the respective State legislatures. It took effect only when 3/4 of the States had ratified it, and only APPLIED TO THOSE STATES THAT had RATIFIED it. Eventually, all of the original states did ratify the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and as each successive Amendment has come up, the required number of States have ratified them too.

Canada in fact does NOT have a Constitution, per se, at least not a written one. It was never ratified by the requisite Provinces, so it never actually took effect. We have elements of a constitution, but not a complete whole.

Just as Great Britain does not have a written Constitution. In actual fact, the oldest WRITTEN Constitution in the world is the one of the USA.

Read my post again. I clearly stated that there was no general vote. And you are wrong about Canada not having a constitution. The BNA Act was renamed the Constitution Act in 1982 and is clearly Canada's constitution. And it you don't think it is written I refer you to this link. --

Machjo

#25

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 2nd, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh

Don't bother wldB, medic doesn't have a clue anout Canada and machjo can't see past his bigotry.

So it's bigoted to want to grant the monarch the freedom to adopt the Catholic Faith should he so wish, and to marry a catholic?

--

And it's bigoted to want all religions to be treated equally?

You sure as hell have a warped idea of bigotry there, buddy.

captain morgan

#26

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 2nd, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by WLDB

"
Depends on the parent. I was in that school system til grade 8. My parents know nothing of politics and have never voted. I told my mother last year that I had met Jean Chretien, she said "Who is he?"

It should be all or nothing. Fund all religious schools, or none. That would ensure equality on this question.

I don't think that this would really be an issue for most people. Also, I believe that it could easily be done by allowing the parents to determine the allocation of the monies.. If there are enough people in a community that support a school (and assuming that the school lives up to the standards set by the province) then it should not be a problem to have that representation.

On that note, there also has to be a form of recognition that the province does not have to build schools for each and every interest group - there has to be enough support in the community (via taxes) to justify the development of that school.

Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo

When did I ever say that? I'd have no issue for example with a voucher programme with any schoool, denominational or not, Catholic or not, being allowed to participate.

Machjo,

When you single-out one specific interest group in the equation and simultaneously elect not to apply those same expectations to the other 'systems', to me, that indicates that there is a bias of sorts.

The Old Medic

#27

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 2nd, 2011

Indeed, Canada has SOME elements of a Constitution. I freely admitted that. It does not have a coherent Constitution though, as much of it is implied, rather than reduced to paper.

I would, by the way, point out that in Canada no Catholic could hold office in any Province other than Quebec until the 1870's (also true in Canada's parent country, Great Britain), women were denied the vote (also true in Great Britain), Canada ALSO had slavery at the time that the US Constitution was written and slaves were not allowed to vote in Canada either (or Great Britain), ONLY land owners were allowed the franchise in Canada (and in most of Great Britain).

In fact, all of the provisions that you choose to rail against were imported from Great Britain, the country that ALL Canadians held citizenship in until January 1, 1947 when Canadian citizenship was first established (and the date when I became a Canadian citizen as well).

No country is sovereign, if it has no citizenship. Canada had no citizenship until 1947, so it was not a truly independent and sovereign nation until that year.

So, in reality, any document that was written prior to 1947 is meaningless as a "Constitutional Document", because it did not apply to a country that was actually sovereign.

Machjo

#28

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 2nd, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by captain morgan

Machjo,

When you single-out one specific interest group in the equation and simultaneously elect not to apply those same expectations to the other 'systems', to me, that indicates that there is a bias of sorts.

Well what do you want me to do? Criticise government funding of Muslim schools to the exclusion of othre religious schools, when that's not the case? Am i to just make it up as I go along? It says clearly in the BNA Act that minority catholic and Protestant communities have this special privilege. Not Jews, not Buddhists, not Hindus, not Muslims. So, what am i to say? It's not my fault the privileged group happens to be Catholic.

Also, if I were so anti-Catholic, why would i have equally argued in the OP that the Monarch ought to be allowed to adopt the Faith of his choosing, and not be forced to adopt the Anghican Faith. This proposal would allow him to become Catholic too. Whadda ya know.

And it states explicitly in the Bill of Rights 1689 that the monarch must be a member of the Church of England and cannot be married to a Catholic. If I'm so anti-catholic, how is it that in the OP I'd also referred to that issue too?

By the way, both the Green Party of Ontario and the Progressive Party of Ontario would have been with me on this last election, with the Greens saying funding for none, and the PC saying funding for all religions. I lean more towards the PC position in principle, but could also accept the Green one as still being equal at least.

What i don't get is how people can actually defend this sepcial privilege, regardless of what religion happens to be given the privilege.

CDNBear

#29

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 2nd, 2011

Quote: Originally Posted by The Old Medic

Indeed, Canada has SOME elements of a Constitution. I freely admitted that. It does not have a coherent Constitution though, as much of it is implied, rather than reduced to paper.

You really should stick to topics you actually know something about. As to what topics those maybe. I'm not sure, you've expressed a serious lack of knowledge on so many topics here, I'm not actually sure one exists...

--

--

Do you ever get tired of looking foolish Old Medic?

The Old Medic

#30

Re: Canadians ashamed of our constitution?

Jul 2nd, 2011

gerryH, I know a HELL of a lot more about Canada than you might think. My family has lived there since humans have been in North America. My EUROPEAN based ancestors came to Canada as early as 1764, and no branch of the family arrived in Canada after 1804.

I have family buried in every Province that borders the United States, I have family that has served in Parliament, family members that have been Knighted by the King or Queen of the time; family members that died defending Canada in various wars; family members that died fighting fires in Winnipeg, etc., etc., etc.

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