Increase funding to Canada Council, NDP says

[Machjo]

Increase funding to Canada Council, NDP says - Politics - CBC News

Hmmm... people are struggling to live, and we need to fund the arts?

Has the NDP never heard of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?

While there certainly is much legitimate criticism of the legitimacy of the hierarchy (after all, people ahve been known to become proor as a result of many reasons other than lack of material benefit, owing to psychological trauma, philosophical choice, or other), the idea that it's the government's job to provide for all of these needs is ridiculous. Instead, the government's job ought to provide for as much freedom as possible and possibly follow Maslow's hierarchy as the best theoretical structure out there thus far. This would mean focusing on bread and butter issues and not on the arts. The arts are indeed important, but I think that's something the market can take care of.

No wonder I cast a blank ballot last election. Arts funding is certainly not a priority. Sorry.

 

[TenPenny]

Arts and sports are not priorities, and funding needs to be cut.

I'd be in favour of completely cutting our Olympic team funding, quite frankly.

 

[Machjo]

Now as for providing education to the unemployed so as to help them find work in the arts in the private sector, that might be acceptable as it would be directly related to employment strategy. But then that would have less to to with the CCa and more to do with provincial funding for job training for the unemployed. Then that would be a provincial not federal matter, meaning that at most we'd be looking at more federal transfer payments to provinces for education and job training.

 

[petros]

Ever since arts were slashed in schools we've had a severe decline in what is considered music.

If you want more rap and **** like that keep cutting the arts.

Follow the timeline and follow the decline.

Yo, shoot, kill **** and beat your bitch while sucking a glass dick and killing police.

Greeeat stuff. Really inspiring for the youth.

 

[mentalfloss]

I can agree with the hierarchy of needs line of logic, but this should actually come down to money.

And the numbers are so paltry that it doesn't even matter.

The conservative budget, as far as I understand from that article, is $115 Million per year.

That's like, $3/person per year.

I highly doubt the NDP would propose even double that amount, so you're really talking peanuts for each person. I'm sure conservatives will try and make themselves look like heroes for saving you 5 bucks per year while they force you to pay 10X that amount for jets, lol

 

[petros]

I can agree with the hierarchy of needs line of logic, but this should actually come down to money.

And the numbers are so paltry that it doesn't even matter.

The conservative budget, as far as I understand from that article, is $115 Million per year.

That's like, $5/person per year.

I highly doubt the NDP would propose even double that amount. You're really talking peanuts for each person.

Yup. Peanuts some figure they don't need to spend but they sure bitch and whine about the decline of society. The heart and soul of a culture is it's music and artistic expression.

Cut those and you have no culture to call your own.

 

[Durry]

Increase funding to Canada Council, NDP says - Politics - CBC News

Has the NDP never heard of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?
y.

Jack has met all of his own needs, the only thing he is missing is the last need, Power!!
And he probably feels he is within a wisker of getting that as well. What a fool!!

 

[Machjo]

Ever since arts were slashed in schools we've had a severe decline in what is considered music.

If you want more rap and **** like that keep cutting the arts.

Follow the timeline and follow the decline.

Yo, shoot, kill **** and beat your bitch while sucking a glass dick and killing police.

Greeeat stuff. Really inspiring for the youth.

Hey, I'm all for public funding for arets education in school, but again that is a provincial matter. Also, that would ensure all benefit from the arts equally. Funding the Canada Council does not benefit all equally and also does nothing to spread the arts to the grass roots.

So again, should we be talking about Federal transfer payments to provinces for education, I could go for that. But not to special interests like the Canada Council.

I can agree with the hierarchy of needs line of logic, but this should actually come down to money.

And the numbers are so paltry that it doesn't even matter.

The conservative budget, as far as I understand from that article, is $115 Million per year.

That's like, $3/person per year.

I highly doubt the NDP would propose even double that amount, so you're really talking peanuts for each person. I'm sure conservatives will try and make themselves look like heroes for saving you 5 bucks per year while they force you to pay 10X that amount for jets, lol

It's not an either-or scenario. First off, should we ingore a dollar here and a dollar there because it's just a dollar here and a dollar there, it quickly adds up among the overall government budget. And secondly, yes the Conservatvies are even worse when it comes to the jets. But to say that it's OK to waste money on NDP pet projects because the Conservative ones are even worse is not responsible in the least.

Also, if we gave up on the F35 purchases, that woudl allow us to pay off the debt more quickly and so eventually increase tranfer payments to provinces or alternatively reduce taxes so that people can invest in the arts privately. Either way would work. But again, wasting money on F35s does not excuse wasting it on other pet projects. If the best the NDp can come up with is that the Conservatives are worse, then they're both politically bankrupt.

Yup. Peanuts some figure they don't need to spend but they sure bitch and whine about the decline of society. The heart and soul of a culture is it's music and artistic expression.

Cut those and you have no culture to call your own.

Reread your last sentence. If you want culture to truly be our own, then increase arts funding in the public education system so that each pupil can make it part of his own culture. It's not by spending on elite arts councils that we promote culture at the grass roots.

Also, by increasing arts funding in the public educaiton system, we can also make it work to give pupils a chance to use this knew knowledge towards their own job search or business ventures.

Money going to an elite arts council just goes to already trained professional artists. How does that do anything to spread culture to the grass roots.

 

[petros]

An increase oin transfers is how this will go down.

 

[Machjo]

An increase oin transfers is how this will go down.

Yes, but why not have it go to public education so as to give arts education to all rather than just to an elite group?

 

[petros]

Money going to an elite arts council just goes to already trained professional artists. How does that do anything to spread culture to the grass roots.

How do you train the up and coming without having professionals to teach them? Go the the library and get an instructional video?

 

[mentalfloss]

But to say that it's OK to waste money on NDP pet projects because the Conservative ones are even worse is not responsible in the least.

I think the amount is so small, that it can't possibly be a "waste".

Let's look at the value per dollar

For $5/year, you'll have a rich set of cultural services that can help inform, educate as well as entertain the population.

For $50/year, you'll get some jets that won't have any positive effect on the GDP.

Which one is the real waste? Even the latter, which you could support and completely afford - could be argued is not wasteful. But by comparison, the former cannot possibly considered wasteful.

 

[Machjo]

How do you train the up and coming without having professionals to teach them? Go the the library and get an instructional video?

Teachers' colleges and arts schools?

The Canada Council is not an educational establishment as such. I've gone onto its website and it appears to be more bureaucratic than anything. It does not appear focused at all. It gives out prises, is involved in research and giving grants, has the Canadian UNESCO Commission under its aegis. It's just not clearly focused and comes across as ad-hoc. Under provincial ministries of education, it would have a much more clearly defined focus: to teach the arts to students, thus ensuring that arts and culture truly spread throughout our society and not just among the elites.

I think the amount is so small, that it can't possibly be a "waste".

Let's look at the value per dollar

For $5/year, you'll have a rich set of cultural services that can help inform, educate as well as entertain the population.

For $50/year, you'll get some jets that won't have any positive effect on the GDP.

Which one is the real waste? Even the latter, which you could support and completely afford - could be argued is not wasteful. But by comparison, the former cannot possibly considered wasteful.

And the private sector could not do what you just described there?

Government should only do what the private sector cannot. Even in the case of education we coudl argue that the rich do not need public education. We can make a counter argument that if we want all to have access to education, then yes government intervention is valuable. So on that front, there is a legitimate argument for increasing arts funding to public schools. As for arts and entertainment in the media, it's already available in the private market anyway without need for government intervention. And besides, should we make it available via public education, it would then become even more accessible not just in the big cities, but evenly spread across the country even in the smallest of towns.

As for jets, maybe we could argue the case for them. Though via a shared international miliary force we could also reduce the cost of naitonal redundancies in military administration at least.

How do you train the up and coming without having professionals to teach them? Go the the library and get an instructional video?

So how do we train kids in maths, science, etc.? Same thing: teachers colleges and other colleges and universities specializing in the subjects mentioned. Why shoudl the arts be any different?

 

[mentalfloss]

Teachers' colleges and arts schools?

The Canada Council is not an educational establishment as such. I've gone onto its website and it appears to be more bureaucratic than anything. It does not appear focused at all. It gives out prises, is involved in research and giving grants, has the Canadian UNESCO Commission under its aegis. It's just not clearly focused and comes across as ad-hoc. Under provincial ministries of education, it would have a much more clearly defined focus: to teach the arts to students, thus ensuring that arts and culture truly spread throughout our society and not just among the elites.

Then that's a problem with the council, not the funding.

Government should only do what the private sector cannot. Even in the case of education we could argue that the rich do not need public education. We can make a counter argument that if we want all to have access to education, then yes government intervention is valuable. So on that front, there is a legitimate argument for increasing arts funding to public schools. As for arts and entertainment in the media, it's already available in the private market anyway without need for government intervention.

True.

I would say the quality of private media is pretty piss poor though. By comparison, there are some pretty good educational programs on CBC, and thankfully, the conservative government (this time) recognizes that and has ensured that funding will not be cut.

 

[Machjo]

I would say the quality of private media is pretty piss poor though. By comparison, there are some pretty good educational programs on CBC, and thankfully, the conservative government (this time) recognizes that and has ensured that funding will not be cut.

But if you increased funding for arts education throughout the education system though, then you would see more quality arts across all segments of society, private and public, since it woudl become common knowledge. The reason we might need government funding for the CBC and the arts council can be said to be in part owing to a dismal failure on the part of provincial ministries of education. We could actually argue the same for the need for official bilingualism.

If ministries of education did a better job, we would not need the CBC.

So why not make arts education compulsory up to at least the age of 15 let's say?

Calligraphy, poetry, the recorder, singing, piano. All could be offered. But at least that way all would ahve equal access and it would no longer be a thing for the elites and government-funded projects. It would then become part and parcel of our society, not separate from it.

 

[mentalfloss]

But if you increased funding for arts education throughout the education system though, then you would see more quality arts across all segments of society, private and public, since it woudl become common knowledge. The reason we might need government funding for the CBC and the arts council can be said to be in part owing to a dismal failure on the part of provincial ministries of education. We could actually argue the same for the need for official bilingualism.

If ministries of education did a better job, we would not need the CBC.

So why not make arts education compulsory up to at least the age of 15 let's say?

Calligraphy, poetry, the recorder, singing, piano. All could be offered. But at least that way all would ahve equal access and it would no longer be a thing for the elites and government-funded projects. It would then become part and parcel of our society, not separate from it.

I can see the value in that.

But I bet the idea that will soon be presented in the media by the other side will simply be to scrap funding of arts completely without putting those resources into something more appropriate.

 

[petros]

So how do we train kids in maths, science, etc.? Same thing: teachers colleges and other colleges and universities specializing in the subjects mentioned. Why shoudl the arts be any different?

With funding. No funding no math no science no anything.

Why do we bother with the apprenticeship programs? Just hand someone a blue print and tell them to go to town? When you get to the nitty gritty trades are art forms.

 

[Machjo]

I can see the value in that.

But I bet the idea that will soon be presented in the media by the other side will simply be to scrap funding of arts completely without putting those resources into something more appropriate.

Well how about this:

We agree to cut funding for the Canada Council altogether and transfering more funds to provinces that agree to make arts education compulsory for let's say 9 years starting at the age of 5. Of course we could include choice. For example, let them choose whether they want to lern calligraphy, the recorder, the piano, singing, dancing, heck, we could even include martial arts in this. There is no denying that the forms of tai chi chuan for instance are not just martial forms but esthetic forms too.

Also, making arts education compulsory for 9 years starting at the age of 5 would create jobs for plenty of arts teachers. Oh, and as for those who lose their jobs at the Canada Council? No problem. Retrain them for the new jobs via EI if job retraining for the unemployed should they need it.

But then they'd be engaged in a much more clearly defined task of spreading culture throughout the grass roots.

With funding. No funding no math no science no anything.

Why do we bother with the apprenticeship programs? Just hand someone a blue print and tell them to go to town? When you get to the nitty gritty trades are art forms.

Then a simpler form would be let's say to provide a school voucher for all Canadians graduating from high school for the first X number of years of post-secondary education. If they want to go to arts clollege, then great. Should they choose to go into science instead, then that would be great too.

It just seems to me that funding this group and then that group in such an ad hoc manner pulling numbers out of our arses is not efficient use of funds. At least a school voucher system would ensure that funding goes to where it's really needed not according to the whims of the government but rather according to actual public interest.

I can see the value in that.

But I bet the idea that will soon be presented in the media by the other side will simply be to scrap funding of arts completely without putting those resources into something more appropriate.

Or here's an even more moderate proposal: cut funding for the Arts Council and redirected towards transfer payments towards arts education in provincial public schools.

 

[mentalfloss]

Or here's an even more moderate proposal: cut funding for the Arts Council and redirected towards transfer payments towards arts education in provincial public schools.

Keep in mind that we're keeping the funding quantum the same.

Who knows if that same $5/year would actually turn in a better education?

 

[Machjo]

But regardless, the work the Arts Council is engaging it right now is something the private sector could easily take over. The government ought to limit itself to that which would be more difficult for the private sector.

I guess looking at it that way, we'd be looing at a more libertarian government federally and a more social-corporatist government provincially, seeing that education is a provincial matter.

Actually, this might also explain why the NDP has traditionally been more successful provincially than federally, precisely because education and such are provincial matters, where the NDP is stronger.