Dying Trees and 10 thousand year old bones

[damngrumpy]

I don't know if this goes here but, we have another problem where life must stand still
because someone putting in a cherry orchard uncovered some ten thousand year old
bone human bones. The replant taking place just outside Vernon BC is now sitting in
limbo. The scientists want to find all the bones they can, the Natives will want the bones
and the farmer has hundreds if not thousands of dying trees that he will lose because
he can't plant them while the song and dance continues.
When is enough enough? Here is a farmer on his own property, planting trees that can't
be left unplanted or they die. Today many of the new varieties are really expensive with
all the royalties that have to be paid. Who pays for this? Crop insurance allows a reasonable
time to put them in the ground and get them started but that won't happen here as it could
be months before the guy gets his own property back. This burial site is around ten thousand
years old. At what point do we stop punishing people?
If you want to know more look up the castanet.net and check out the story sacred ground.

 

[PoliticalNick]

This is a prime example of why I would never even report the find if it were my property!

 

[In Between Man]

This is a prime example of why I would never even report the find if it were my property!

Exactly!

Sit back and enjoy the fireworks because I think Cliffy will have a much different opinion.

 

[Cliffy]

Exactly!

Sit back and enjoy the fireworks because I think Cliffy will have a much different opinion.

I wouldn't want to disappoint you.

A famous anthropologist asked a native man, whose grandmother was quite a famous native historical figure, where she was buried. He calmly said, "I will if first you tell me where your grandmother is buried". The anthropologist said indignantly, "but my grandmother is buried in hollowed ground!"

Personally, I couldn't care less. I would rather my body be taken out into the forest and left there for the coyotes and ravens to eat.

So whose cultural sense of the sacred do we honour here. Our culture has come here, in BC, less than 200 years ago and has desecrated 10 thousand years of cultural and religious sites all in the name of progress and our sense of entitlement to this land. Well, we have raped and pillaged paradise already, so what the phuque!, who cares any more. I certainly don't. When we finally reap what we have sowed, don't come crying to me about it.

 

[PoliticalNick]

I don't buy in to the whole sacred and hallowed ground thing. One of my friends after he passed had his ashes thrown into the wind off the west coast, does this make the whole pacific ocean sacred? Another friend, as per his request, well we surreptisiously spread his ashes over his favorite golf course, would this make the it hallowed ground, or hallowed ground under repair even? (bad golf joke I know)

 

[Cliffy]

I don't buy in to the whole sacred and hallowed ground thing. One of my friends after he passed had his ashes thrown into the wind off the west coast, does this make the whole pacific ocean sacred? Another friend, as per his request, well we surreptisiously spread his ashes over his favorite golf course, would this make the it hallowed ground, or hallowed ground under repair even? (bad golf joke I know)

The ground is not sacred. But our culture does not understand the ways of the culture we have destroyed. We look at the earth and see resources to be exploited but their culture saw the Earth as the source of life. They had reverence for and gave thanks to the Earth Mother for all the life sustaining things that were available to them. They saw animals, plants and minerals as gifts to be cherished, not exploited.

What we have here is a clash between to opposing world views. But that is not what the OP is about. The OP is about our science of archaeology and anthropology taking precedent over someones perceived right to exploit the earth. But all capitalist endevours are fraught with risks, and this poor bugger has run into them head first.

 

[CDNBear]

I don't buy in to the whole sacred and hallowed ground thing.

This burial site is around ten thousand years old.

To both of you...

Good for you. Where's your mom buried? In a couple thousand years, would you like her remains to be treated with respect?

Would you like to think that maybe her remains may help the society that may find her, better understand our society today?

At what point do we stop punishing people?

Good question, when will people stop punishing Natives, for having lived here before you?

This is a prime example of why I would never even report the find if it were my property!

Then you would be in contradiction the the Canadian Archaeological Protection Act.

Archaeological sites are a non-renewable resource.

They saw animals, plants and minerals as gifts to be cherished, not exploited.

You have a skewed of view of native practices in antiquity. Natives oft exploited an area to the extreme, then moved to a new area, to exploit.

 

[YukonJack]

Why would an atheist or a person who does not believe in an afterlife or a person who doubts the existence of a human soul be in the least concerned about sacred grounds and about the way human remains are treated?

 

[mentalfloss]

Why would an atheist or a person who does not believe in an afterlife or a person who doubts the existence of a human soul be in the least concerned about sacred grounds and about the way human remains are treated?

Natural burials are a pretty good solution.

 

[Cliffy]

Why would an atheist or a person who does not believe in an afterlife or a person who doubts the existence of a human soul be in the least concerned about sacred grounds and about the way human remains are treated?

And who would that person be, Jack?

To both of you...

Good for you. Where's your mom buried? In a couple thousand years, would you like her remains to be treated with respect?

Would you like to think that maybe her remains may help the society that may find her, better understand our society today?

Good question, when will people stop punishing Natives, for having lived here before you?

Then you would be in contradiction the the Canadian Archaeological Protection Act.

Archaeological sites are a non-renewable resource.

You have a skewed of view of native practices in antiquity. Natives oft exploited an area to the extreme, then moved to a new area, to exploit.

Well, I guess I am not as familiar with some of the cultural practices of the eastern tribes, but one thing I know is they never had the technology or the machinery to do the kind of extreme damage like our culture: tar sands, deforestation, open pit mines, burying thousand of hectares under concrete and asphalt cities, spraying millions of hectare with pesticides and herbicides, clear cutting all but 5% of all the old growth forests in Canada, extincting dozens of species every year. Judging by what was here when the first settlers arrived, the native population did not destroy the environment on any scale that could be called extreme.

 

[CDNBear]

Well, I guess I am not as familiar with some of the cultural practices of the eastern tribes, but one thing I know is they never had the technology or the machinery to do the kind of extreme damage like our culture: tar sands, deforestation, open pit mines, burying thousand of hectares under concrete and asphalt cities, spraying millions of hectare with pesticides and herbicides, clear cutting all but 5% of all the old growth forests in Canada, extincting dozens of species every year. Judging by what was here when the first settlers arrived, the native population did not destroy the environment on any scale that could be called extreme.

I'll concede to that.

 

[petros]

It's odd how someone has to be dead to get any respect.

 

[Mowich]

I don't know if this goes here but, we have another problem where life must stand still
because someone putting in a cherry orchard uncovered some ten thousand year old
bone human bones. The replant taking place just outside Vernon BC is now sitting in
limbo. The scientists want to find all the bones they can, the Natives will want the bones
and the farmer has hundreds if not thousands of dying trees that he will lose because
he can't plant them while the song and dance continues.
When is enough enough? Here is a farmer on his own property, planting trees that can't
be left unplanted or they die. Today many of the new varieties are really expensive with
all the royalties that have to be paid. Who pays for this? Crop insurance allows a reasonable
time to put them in the ground and get them started but that won't happen here as it could
be months before the guy gets his own property back. This burial site is around ten thousand
years old. At what point do we stop punishing people?
If you want to know more look up the castanet.net and check out the story sacred ground.

A similar situation arose in my neighborhood a few years ago when friends of mine were building a new home on property that 'supposedly' was an old (read ancient) native campsite. They were stalled for months while all kinds of 'experts' combed the property looking for 'signs' of the purported campsite. Nothing was found and my friends were forced to wait until the following year to begin building as the long wait had taken them into the winter months.

In this case, all the costs had to borne by my friends simply because someone thought there might be 'artifacts' on their property. It wasn't fair then and it isn't fair now.

 

[PoliticalNick]

Good for you. Where's your mom buried? In a couple thousand years, would you like her remains to be treated with respect?

My Mom is on my sisters mantle, dig wherever you want. As for me I have chosen to become worm food and hope they enjoy the meal and replenish the earth. I'll take respect when I'm alive to enjoy it over when I'm dead.

Would you like to think that maybe her remains may help the society that may find her, better understand our society today?

Do you really think that 99% of the people care about understanding ancient societies?

Then you would be in contradiction the the Canadian Archaeological Protection Act.

I don't care!!

Archaeological sites are a non-renewable resource.

So am I, shouldn't I get funding and protection too??

You have a skewed of view of native practices in antiquity. Natives oft exploited an area to the extreme, then moved to a new area, to exploit.

Yep, humans haven't changed much in a couple of thousand years has they?

Well, I guess I am not as familiar with some of the cultural practices of the eastern tribes, but one thing I know is they never had the technology or the machinery to do the kind of extreme damage like our culture: tar sands, deforestation, open pit mines, burying thousand of hectares under concrete and asphalt cities, spraying millions of hectare with pesticides and herbicides, clear cutting all but 5% of all the old growth forests in Canada, extincting dozens of species every year. Judging by what was here when the first settlers arrived, the native population did not destroy the environment on any scale that could be called extreme.

Do you think they would have if they did have the technology??

 

[damngrumpy]

To replant and orchard the cost now is about 25,000 per acre plus royalties. If you are the
farmer who didn't know the bones were there, bought the posts the wire the irrigation and
fumigated the soil and prepped it. Then the trees arrive and they have to be planted fairly and
I mean fairly quickly, and they can't, who pays for that? I think if the governments and the
scientists want to comb the land so be it, but they should be given three days maximum or
the planting can begin. If someone chose to be buried ten thousand years ago in the forest
that is enough time to have all the mourners pass on. Same goes for us. I suppose in a
couple of hundred years our graves will be uprooted for the building of a new cemetery.
The problem with an orchard as well is it takes three to four years for the tree to start producing
a full crop, so even more money is being lost here. Again who pays for that? Should taxpayers
be on the hook then for the replant and the income loss while people go about looking for some
ancient bones?
I think if I found something like this I would be tempted to just keep the plow working and say
nothing. The only problem is personally it would also bother me. At what point does the government
have to step up to the plate here and pay some compensation for the loss the farmer suffers on his
own land? Another problem most farmers face with new trees is the Queens deer come and eat
the new shoots, should the farmer pay the full cost of that? Deer fencing is no longer a shared
program expense. If My dog was or other pet was causing problems for my neighbours I would be
held responsible, therefore the government should be held partly responsible for the Queens deer.
I think we have to change some of the laws in this country, its the twenty first century and the bones
of ten thousand years ago, are bones from a different era and how do we deal with that?
A farmer has his own property, making a living from the land some little scientist with a pith helmet
can come in and turn his world upside down, not to mention cost him a fortune. If we are going to
have a law that protects the bones that is fine, but we also better have a law that protects the living
farmer. And the question is the same Who Pays For That?

 

[In Between Man]

I saw a news program tonight on how the 16,000 graveyards in Canada are in need of desperate repair due to overgrowth, deteriorated tombstones and vandalism. And only a handful of volunteers are working to put a small dent in the repairs. I think it's a worthwhile cause because it shows respect to the persons who contributed to this country, even if they're long forgotten.

Therefore I'm softening my stance on property rights versus ancient burial grounds. If you're going to respect one grave, the honorable thing to do is to respect all grave sites. If you find an ancient Indian burial site on your property, the right thing to do is call the proper authorities.

The trees you were wanting to plant may die, but isn't that just a card you have to deal with as a property owner?

Sometimes its better to grateful for what you do have, like property in the first place. Some of us don't even have a balcony. :lol:

 

[Cliffy]

Owning property is a bit of an oxymoron. You only own the surface rights and the right to pay taxes - that is all. If I discover minerals on your property, I can mine it and there is Jack you can do about it. If Highways want to build a road through your property, they will offer you 10 cents on the dollar for what it is worth and if you try to get more they will just expropriate. Ownership in this society is not what they sell it as.

 

[bill barilko]

Is it a new orchard or an old one where trees are being replaced?

Because there haven't been new orchards in the Okanagan for ages-it's either condos or vineyards that are growing there now.

Also-who the hell replants trees in late spring-that's a winter job as any tree farmer can tell you.

 

[CDNBear]

My Mom is on my sisters mantle, dig wherever you want. As for me I have chosen to become worm food and hope they enjoy the meal and replenish the earth. I'll take respect when I'm alive to enjoy it over when I'm dead.

Good for you. If only you gave good reason, to be respected while alive.

Do you really think that 99% of the people care about understanding ancient societies?

Probably not, but it goes a long way to understanding how we all got to where we are. Something that is of great interest to many people.

I don't care!!

I'm not surprised. You seem to have a very flexible opinion on laws, and freedoms, as your ideology dictates.

So am I, shouldn't I get funding and protection too??

You already do.

Yep, humans haven't changed much in a couple of thousand years has they?

Nope, most humans can change in a few years, sometimes over night. That's why we study archaeological finds such as this, to see how people change, why they changed and when they changed.

Do you think they would have if they did have the technology??

Maybe. But as an example of how people change. When the Europeans introduced firearms, there was whole sale slaughter of wildlife by both First Nations and Europeans. When I was a kid, I was tought stringent environmentalism and conservation practices. It took a few hundred years, but many of my people came around before yours.

 

[damngrumpy]

Actually the native or first nations peoples are miles ahead when it comes to environmentalism.
We as a society are only now learning the natural husbandry that is required to sustain the life
mankind is living. I said also that while I would be tempted to ignore the bones it would bother me
and therefore I wouldn't do that. If we are going to respect ancient burial grounds then in a modern
society we must also respect the current society and the rights of those who own the property and
are operating a business. When we chart a course into that realm we ask the age old question,
When we confront serious financial and logistical problems, who is responsible to compensate the
farmer in this case? And no it is not just another cost to him. He had no idea the bones were there,
he had no idea of the complicated process that would follow. We are in fact discovering history
from the past and we are in fact creating a new history as to how we approach and handle the
problems in the future, that will in fact become our long distant past.
I believe we must reconcile the past and the future, no problem there, but there are thousands of
dollars in trees and millions of dollars in revenue lost. If the farmer ends up with the losses his
future is as dead as the people already buried and that is not respectful either.
If we are going to have rules that protect the bones, we must also have rules and laws that protect
the farmer in this case and I suggest the government is responsible as they make the rules we
live by.