BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

L Gilbert

#1Feb 11th, 2009

British Columbia Civil Liberties Association

Quote:

February 9, 2009

Quote:

British Columbia Civil Liberties Association
February 9, 2009
For immediate release
BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases
Vancouver – The BC Civil Liberties Association today calls for charges to be dropped in the recently laid polygamy cases in Bountiful.
Early in January, charges were laid against Winston Blackmore and James Oler, leaders of the Bountiful religious community outside Creston BC, changing them both with offenses against section 293 of the Criminal Code of Canada, a provision of the code passed in 1892.
Quote has been trimmed

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BCCLA would much prefer that Blackmore and his cronies be charged for various sexual abuses if there is any truth to it. Charging them with polygamy sounds like a legal nightmare considering the Charter of Rights & Freedoms (the liberty to practise your religion). I think Oppal is off his nut.

SirJosephPorter

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

I agree. I think it is high time The Supreme Court established whether ban on polygamy is constitutional.

I myself think polygamy violates the equality provision of the Charter, and Supreme Court will probably rule that the Parliament has the right to ban polygamy. However, if SC rules the other way and legalizes polygamy, I would be willing to live with that.

But I think it is necessary to establish once and for all if ban on polygamy is legal or not. In the unlikely event that SC overturns the ban on polygamy, then these people could be charged with sexual abuse, there is always time for that.

Zzarchov

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

There is a pretty strong basis for discrimination based on religion for banning polygamous marriages.

Monogamous Marriage is a pretty strongly Judeo-Christian structure.

Cannuck

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

You should be able to marry whomever you want. Why a guy would want more than one wife is beyond me though. I can barely afford one.

Cliffy

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cannuck

You should be able to marry whomever you want. Why a guy would want more than one wife is beyond me though. I can barely afford one.

Ya, and sheep are much less demanding too.

Zzarchov

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Depending on the culture, sometimes its the wife who wants a second wife for the husband.

petros

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

As long as women are abused in the borders of Canada the war in A-Stan will continue to be a propaganda farce about bringing woemn and children freedom and rights.

SirJosephPorter

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Zzarchov

There is a pretty strong basis for discrimination based on religion for banning polygamous marriages.

Monogamous Marriage is a pretty strongly Judeo-Christian structure.

Sure it is discrimination, but freedom to worship is not absolute, basic human rights trump the freed of religion. When the two are in conflict, freedom of religion must yield.

E.g. some religions demand human sacrifice, but Canada won’t permit human sacrifice in the name of religion. If tomorrow somebody starts a religion with rape as its main sacrament, Courts won’t permit them to indulge in rape, in the name of freedom of religion.

It is the same with polygamy. Sure some religions demand polygamy (e.g. Islam, or Mormonism). However, I think polygamy comes right smack against the equality provision of the Charter. There is no way courts will permit religions to do something if that means relegating women to second class citizens.

In my opinion, it is highly likely that courts will rule that permitting polygamy is unconstitutional.

SirJosephPorter

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Zzarchov

Depending on the culture, sometimes its the wife who wants a second wife for the husband.

Now really, what does culture have to do with constitution? Constitution guarantees equality of all human beings, culture is shaped by centuries of tradition, practice and biases. One has nothing whatever to do with the other.

Indeed, when we were discussing whether Sharia should be introduced in Ontario, some Muslim men made precisely the same argument. They claimed (probably with some justification) that Muslim women want Sharia introduced in Ontario.

The response is, so what? Most Muslim women are conditioned by their culture, are intimidated by Muslim men, they will agree to anything the men want.

This argument has been made through the ages, e.g. they argued that even if blacks were freed many of them will opt for slavery, or that most women don’t want to vote etc.

So if somebody’s culture demands that a wife must want a second wife for her husband (it may be a status symbol, social standing etc.), then let that couple return to their country and do whatever they want.

If it is decided that polygamy is against the Charter (as I think and hope the Courts will rule), what somebody’s culture says is irrelevant.

Zzarchov

#10

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter

Sure it is discrimination, but freedom to worship is not absolute, basic human rights trump the freed of religion. When the two are in conflict, freedom of religion must yield.

E.g. some religions demand human sacrifice, but Canada won’t permit human sacrifice in the name of religion. If tomorrow somebody starts a religion with rape as its main sacrament, Courts won’t permit them to indulge in rape, in the name of freedom of religion.

It is the same with polygamy. Sure some religions demand polygamy (e.g. Islam, or Mormonism). However, I think polygamy comes right smack against the equality provision of the Charter. There is no way courts will permit religions to do something if that means relegating women to second class citizens.

In my opinion, it is highly likely that courts will rule that permitting polygamy is unconstitutional.

Please explain how this is relagating women to second class citizens again? Allowing multiple spouses doesn't seem to have any bias towards either gender or sexual orientation.

It seems to be purely a case of individual freedom being trounced for Judeo-Christian religious based morality.

VanIsle

#11

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Cliffy

Ya, and sheep are much less demanding too.

You know this because you are married to one??

L Gilbert

#12

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

I don't really give a crap about the polygamy. What I care about are the 14 year olds being coerced into marrying 45 year old men under the guise of some whacked out religion. I mean, it's one thing to brainwash kids into the religion in the first place, but when you use that brainwashing to sexually abuse them, that's a whole other ballgame.

VanIsle

#13

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorter

Sure it is discrimination, but freedom to worship is not absolute, basic human rights trump the freed of religion. When the two are in conflict, freedom of religion must yield.

E.g. some religions demand human sacrifice, but Canada won’t permit human sacrifice in the name of religion. If tomorrow somebody starts a religion with rape as its main sacrament, Courts won’t permit them to indulge in rape, in the name of freedom of religion.

It is the same with polygamy. Sure some religions demand polygamy (e.g. Islam, or Mormonism). However, I think polygamy comes right smack against the equality provision of the Charter. There is no way courts will permit religions to do something if that means relegating women to second class citizens.

In my opinion, it is highly likely that courts will rule that permitting polygamy is unconstitutional.

Parts of the Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) are a break away from the main church. Bountiful Mormons are part of the "break away". We have friends who have strong Mormon faith and they believe only in monogamous relationships. Like most of us - the idea of sharing one's spouse with another is repulsive to them.

VanIsle

#14

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

I don't really give a crap about the polygamy. What I care about are the 14 year olds being coerced into marrying 45 year old men under the guise of some whacked out religion.

So you are saying that (if you are married and I believe you have stated that you are very happily married) it would be okay with you if your wife brought another husband into your home? That is what it sounds like you are saying.

L Gilbert

#15

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Islandpacific

Parts of the Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) are a break away from the main church. Bountiful Mormons are part of the "break away". We have friends who have strong Mormon faith and they believe only in monogamous relationships. Like most of us - the idea of sharing one's spouse with another is repulsive to them.

The Mormons at Bountiful are a break away from the regular Mormons.

VanIsle

#16

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Zzarchov

Please explain how this is relegating women to second class citizens again? Allowing multiple spouses doesn't seem to have any bias towards either gender or sexual orientation.

It seems to be purely a case of individual freedom being trounced for Judeo-Christian religious based morality.

How many women do you know have multiple husbands?? Of course it is relagating women to second class citizens - barefoot and pregnant.

L Gilbert

#17

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Islandpacific

So you are saying that (if you are married and I believe you have stated that you are very happily married) it would be okay with you if your wife brought another husband into your home? That is what it sounds like you are saying.

Read my signature, and then read what I said in my OP.
IOW, I think it's absolutely inane to charge Blackmore with polygamy and ignore the other things he's doing.

VanIsle

#18

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

how?

L Gilbert

#19

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Islandpacific

how?

I think the procedure for charging Blackmore with whatever else is the same as that for charging him with polygamy.
Basically, what Oppal is doing is attacking a sexual predator because of his "religion".

Zzarchov

#20

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Islandpacific

So you are saying that (if you are married and I believe you have stated that you are very happily married) it would be okay with you if your wife brought another husband into your home? That is what it sounds like you are saying.

Im happily married , and I can answer that.

If we both decided to do that, then yes, I think thats fine. As its not other peoples business. No where in the concept of plural marriages does it state one married member is the "master" who decides how many spouses are involved. If everyone in the existing marriage says "Sure, whats one more" thats fine.

If one person secretly marries another, thats bigamy, and thats another crime entirely.

VanIsle

#21

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

I think the procedure for charging Blackmore with whatever else is the same as that for charging him with polygamy.
Basically, what Oppal is doing is attacking a sexual predator because of his "religion".

You mis-understood me - read your wall.

VanIsle

#22

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Zzarchov

Im happily married , and I can answer that.

If we both decided to do that, then yes, I think thats fine. As its not other peoples business. No where in the concept of plural marriages does it state one married member is the "master" who decides how many spouses are involved. If everyone in the existing marriage says "Sure, whats one more" thats fine.

If one person secretly marries another, thats bigamy, and thats another crime entirely.

I don't agree that Oppal is attacking him because of his religion. He's attacking him because he's using his religion to commit a crime.

Zzarchov

#23

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Islandpacific

How many women do you know have multiple husbands?? Of course it is relagating women to second class citizens - barefoot and pregnant.

I actually know three women who exist in a polygamous relationship with each other quite well. And there are many cultures out there which practice polyandry.

By your logic, monogamous marriages relegate women to second class citizens, forcing them to be barefoot and pregnant, cause pregnancy apparently only occurs in marriage...

Technically as long as one doesn't make the marriages anything other than religious ceremonies there is no crime with polygamy already.

One is perfectly allowed to have as many women for girlfriends/baby mamas at once as they want, or as many men on the side.

What polygamy is about is giving legal rights to multiple spouses. Without legal gay marriage, gay defacto marriages still happened all the time , they just had no rights.

L Gilbert

#24

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Islandpacific

I don't agree that Oppal is attacking him because of his religion. He's attacking him because he's using his religion to commit a crime.

Then why not charge him with ALL his crimes? Why just pick one Oppal is probably going to lose in court over?

Risus

#25

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Zzarchov

Depending on the culture, sometimes its the wife who wants a second wife for the husband.

What a crock...

Zzarchov

#26

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Risus

What a crock...

Not at all, alot of marriages are simply marriages of convenience after all.

Of course there is a simple solution here, we've applied to other marriage questions people don't like.

If you don't like plural marriages, don't be part of one.

Risus

#27

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Zzarchov

There is a pretty strong basis for discrimination based on religion for banning polygamous marriages.

Monogamous Marriage is a pretty strongly Judeo-Christian structure.

I disagree. If someone wants more than 1 wife (or read is stupid enough to want more than one wife

) then they can go back where they came from. Its Canada and its monogamous marriages. Society will be going down the tubes otherwise.

SirJosephPorter

#28

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Zzarchov

I actually know three women who exist in a polygamous relationship with each other quite well. And there are many cultures out there which practice polyandry.

Technically as long as one doesn't make the marriages anything other than religious ceremonies there is no crime with polygamy already.

One is perfectly allowed to have as many women for girlfriends/baby mamas at once as they want, or as many men on the side.

What polygamy is about is giving legal rights to multiple spouses. Without legal gay marriage, gay defacto marriages still happened all the time , they just had no rights.

My couple of posts seem to have generated quite a bit of discussion. I will try to answer a few points.

Quite right, Zzarchov, what people do in their private life is their business. If there is a church which marries one man to eight women, or marries a man to his goat, that is between the man, the women, the goat and the church, and nobody’s business.

What we are talking about here is, should government recognize polygamy, with all the inherent rights that married couples enjoy (government benefits, custody rights, divorce laws etc.)?

And here I say, no. Polygamy comes squarely against the equality provision of the Charter of Rights, polygamy will infringe upon peoples’ rights and it should not be recognized legally. What people do in their private life is their own business, as long as they don’t demand any government sanctioned benefits for their private arrangement.

L Gilbert

#29

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

oooops

L Gilbert

#30

Re: BCCLA calls for charges to be dropped in polygamy cases

Feb 11th, 2009

Quote: Originally Posted by Risus

I disagree. If someone wants more than 1 wife (or read is stupid enough to want more than one wife ) then they can go back where they came from. Its Canada and its monogamous marriages. Society will be going down the tubes otherwise.

rofl
There are societies alive and well that don't even have marriages, let alone monogamous ones. And there are some that are becoming amatrimonial ( -- ).
Marriage seems to be only relevant in somewhat religious societies.

Last edited by L Gilbert; Feb 11th, 2009 at 03:19 PM..

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