A better theory about coal

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
picture of the day




[FONT=Times New Roman,serif] [/FONT]250-million-year-old Cryolophosaurus ellioti bone found in Antarctica.
Image courtesy of David Elliot.


How Long Ago?
Jan 01, 2009


When presented with the Electric Universe theory and the planetary catastrophes that might have occurred in the past, a commonly evoked question is: When did it all take place?
There are beds of coal covering millions of square kilometers all over the world. They vary in thickness and composition, as well as in the material combined with them in situ. Insects, leaves, tree trunks, rocks of every kind, and the bones of animals from hundreds of species abound—some say human bones have been found in a Pennsylvania coal seam. There are carbonized trees standing upright in some coal deposits, although how they extend downward through so many "geological ages" is a mystery to paleontologists, since the layers are said to progress through eons of time: 250-500 million years ago.

There are forests of mineralized trees under some of the deepest ice in Antarctica. Cores drilled through the ice sometimes contain scorched and petrified wood fragments. Mineralized trees cover large areas of the American prairie, a so-called "petrified forest" encompassing thousand of specimens. Not forgetting to mention the bones of animals in unbelievable numbers entombed within sedimentary deposits hundreds of meters thick alongside their fossilized forest home.

Fish skeletons in shoals that could number in the millions of individuals pose in frozen postures, as if they are swimming through a matrix of sandstone. What force could bury a school of fish covering thousands of square kilometers in an instant, leaving their skeletons in lifelike positions, fins extended, mouths open, as if they were killed and tuned to stone in between one breath and another? How could it keep them whole, without being disarticulated or crushed?

Trilobites, sauropods, pterosaurs, cycads, ginkgos, clams, dragonflys—all preserved for what is said to be millions, hundreds of millions, and even billions of years in a variety of minerals. Some fossils, unlike the fish that appear as if they are still swimming, are broken and disjointed, or scattered over a wide area. Some are entangled in heaps almost as tall as mountains, with multitudes of different species all mixed together in a grisly zoological assemblage. Combined in giant solidified piles with splintered trees and shredded leaves, one is hard-pressed to find a singe intact skeleton amidst the chaos.

When did the animals meet their dooms? When did the forests burn, freeze and then succumb to their very tissues being replaced by stone? How accurate is the system used to date the fossil forests and animal graveyards?

One of the most basic assumptions in the development of an accurate "calendar" by which events could be dated was that the Earth is an isolated celestial body that does not interact with other bodies. Another assumption is that radioactive decay rates are constant, Earth's energy cycle has received no additional input since the radioactive elements were formed, or no alteration to its electrical or magnetic fields have taken place. That means geologists can "rely on" a smooth, continuous clock ticking off the millennia at a measurable rate. Is that the case, however? Is there evidence that the radiometric dating methods that scientists use with such confidence can change?

Cosmic rays or electrical discharges could increase the percentages of C-14 ("radiocarbon") in living organisms. If the remains of those organisms were dated using the standard radiocarbon ratios, they would appear to be much younger than they are, or much closer to the present era than they should be.

Conversely, if an increase in radioactively neutral carbon isotope were to accumulate in our biosphere from burning forests, from cosmic dust, or from extensive volcanic eruptions, anything dated following whichever particular cause would appear much older. No definite timeline can be constructed using the dating methods traditionally thought to produce accurate results.

It seems possible that plasma interactions with Earth and other charged bodies in space, or the impact of ion beams from a vast cloud of plasma on our biosphere could disrupt all the elemental changes that are used to date rocks: uranium changing to lead; potassium changing to argon; or samarium changing to neodymium. Therefore, the Earth could be much younger than the billions of years commonly ascribed to it. It is equally possible that it much older than is thought. Until some radical new discovery is made, no one can be sure.

By Stephen Smith
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
And almost entirely nonsense.


Well of course it is eh, but still one wonders about the questions raised by the emphirical evidence. Perhaps a nice mathmatical model would clear the subject up for us. Still I do wonder how does one selectively avoid crushing entombed organisms in such numbers and regularity. If one believed in god or commercial science one wouldn't be bothered by such speculation I suppose. It seems an acceptable balanced view of the cosmos comes down to the modern individuals faith in orthodox scientific dogma.
 
Last edited:

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
... I suppose it comes down to faith in orthodoxy and strong conformist tendencies.
No, it comes down to knowing enough about physics and chemistry and other fields to recognize false statements and BS when you see them. Calibration issues with radiocarbon dating are well known and understood, for instance, your Mr. Smith is just lying about it.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
No, it comes down to knowing enough about physics and chemistry and other fields to recognize false statements and BS when you see them. Calibration issues with radiocarbon dating are well known and understood, for instance, your Mr. Smith is just lying about them.

Well let's examine the bits that have offered you such professional insult. My Mr smith is lying about the calibration issues then? Could you specify exactly what lie you percieve. Thankyou.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
"Another assumption is that radioactive decay rates are constant, Earth's energy cycle has received no additional input since the radioactive elements were formed, or no alteration to its electrical or magnetic fields have taken place."

Is it this bit? I bet it is because if any additional input were to have taken place or was more or less constant, there would be problems with just about the whole modern physical model, wouldn't there.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
"Another assumption is that radioactive decay rates are constant, Earth's energy cycle has received no additional input since the radioactive elements were formed, or no alteration to its electrical or magnetic fields have taken place."

Is it this bit? I bet it is because if any additional input were to have taken place or was more or less constant, there would be problems with just about the whole modern physical model, wouldn't there.
That's one of them. It's widely known and well understood that earth's electrical and magnetic fields vary significantly over time. We've been around this stuff before DB, and my conclusion is the same: anybody who thinks Velikovsky was right doesn't understand enough physics or chemistry or geology or any other major field of science to have a legitimate opinion about stuff like this.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
That's one of them. It's widely known and well understood that earth's electrical and magnetic fields vary significantly over time. We've been around this stuff before DB, and my conclusion is the same: anybody who thinks Velikovsky was right doesn't understand enough physics or chemistry or geology or any other major field of science to have a legitimate opinion about stuff like this.

You have a pattern of failing to address the subject matter other than the common blanket generalizations of mine and Velikovskys incompetance. Dexter you are an adherant of the official 911 story, you therefore have no credible basis to doubt my competence in anything with the possible exclusion of spelling. :smile:
 

Francis2004

Subjective Poster
Nov 18, 2008
2,846
34
48
Lower Mainland, BC
There's also a 250 million year-old pencil in the picture, too.

I didn't even know dinosaurs could write.

I could handle the pencil ( Wood and Lead ) should have been around back then.. But they really lost me on the Eraser and its shape at the end of the pencil 8O
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
You have a pattern of failing to address the subject matter other than the common blanket generalizations of mine and Velikovskys incompetance. Dexter you are an adherant of the official 911 story, you therefore have no credible basis to doubt my competence in anything with the possible exclusion of spelling. :smile:
Velikovsky and the electric universe claims have been adequately debunked by others, you can easily find lots of material with a little googling, but you wouldn't believe that any more than you'd believe anything I tell you. I see no need to provide you with a point by point rebuttal of everything you say. But if you want some specifics, try these.

1. If stars are actually powered by infalling currents of galactic electrons, how is it that all we detect is the outgoing solar wind, which consists of both positive (mostly protons) and negative (mostly electrons) particles and is electrically neutral overall?

2. The electric universe theory predicts results completely at variance with what we see of the mass-luminosity relationship in stars on the Hertzsprung-Russell Diagram, but the standard model of progressive stages of nuclear fusion explains it quite well. In fact according to the electric universe theory there should be no mass-luminosity relationship at all, any star of any size could have pretty much any surface temperature at all, within certain limits, like between about 3000 and 50,000 degrees K, because it depends on external events and is not an intrinsic property of the star itself.

3. Any body in the solar system with a net charge would preferentially attract the oppositely charged components of the solar wind and would soon end up electrically neutral.

4. If there were charge differentials between solar system bodies sufficient to cause the huge discharges the electric universe theory uses to explain features like the cratering on the moon (and Velikovsky uses to explain certain Old Testament miracles), there would be enormous Coulomb forces between them. The electromagnetic force is over three dozen orders of magnitude stronger than the gravitational force, the solar system would be a very different place if such charge differentials existed.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Velikovsky and the electric universe claims have been adequately debunked by others, you can easily find lots of material with a little googling, but you wouldn't believe that any more than you'd believe anything I tell you. I see no need to provide you with a point by point rebuttal of everything you say. But if you want some specifics, try these.



2. The electric universe theory predicts results completely at variance with what we see of the mass-luminosity relationship in stars on the Hertzsprung-Russell Diagram, but the standard model of progressive stages of nuclear fusion explains it quite well. In fact according to the electric universe theory there should be no mass-luminosity relationship at all, any star of any size could have pretty much any surface temperature at all, within certain limits, like between about 3000 and 50,000 degrees K, because it depends on external events and is not an intrinsic property of the star itself.



>> [Click on images to enlarge] The Hertzsprung-Russell diagram (left) is a plot of observations which must be explained by the chosen model of stars. The electrical model of stars reverses the direction of the x-axis to show the direct relationship between an increase in current density at the surface of a star and the higher temperature of that star, reflected by its change in color from red hot to white hot to blue hot.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
The electrical model of stars reverses the direction of the x-axis to show the direct relationship between an increase in current density at the surface of a star and the higher temperature of that star, reflected by its change in color from red hot to white hot to blue hot.
How does simply reversing the x-axis say anything about current density? Where does current density appear in that diagram except as an extra label, what's the relationship between current density, temperature, and luminosity, (show the equations), and how does the electrical model explain the grouping of stars by mass on it? And while you're at it, since you accused me of failing to address the subject matter, address the other three points I raised as well: why have we never detected these great plasma currents flowing into the sun, why do all large bodies behave as if they have zero net charge, and why do Newton's and Einstein's equations adequately explain the observed motions of objects in the solar system, without considering electrical forces?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
How does simply reversing the x-axis say anything about current density? Where does current density appear in that diagram except as an extra label, what's the relationship between current density, temperature, and luminosity, (show the equations), and how does the electrical model explain the grouping of stars by mass on it? And while you're at it, since you accused me of failing to address the subject matter, address the other three points I raised as well: why have we never detected these great plasma currents flowing into the sun, why do all large bodies behave as if they have zero net charge, and why do Newton's and Einstein's equations adequately explain the observed motions of objects in the solar system, without considering electrical forces?

Slow down Dexter I'm not as fast on the draw as you are, I'm working on it, at an evolutionary pace. Here I'll offer you a few tidbits about Einstein I ran accross today.

[SIZE=+1]"The effect [of ether-drift] has persisted throughout. After considering all the possible sources of error, there always remained a positive effect."Dayton Miller (1928, p.399) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]"My opinion about Miller's experiments is the following. ... Should the positive result be confirmed, then the special theory of relativity and with it the general theory of relativity, in its current form, would be invalid. Experimentum summus judex. Only the equivalence of inertia and gravitation would remain, however, they would have to lead to a significantly different theory."
— Albert Einstein, in a letter to Edwin E. Slosson, July 1925 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]"I believe that I have really found the relationship between gravitation and electricity, assuming that the Miller experiments are based on a fundamental error. Otherwise, the whole relativity theory collapses like a house of cards."
— Albert Einstein, in a letter to Robert Millikan, June 1921 (in Clark 1971, p.328) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]"You imagine that I look back on my life's work with calm satisfaction. But from nearby it looks quite different. There is not a single concept of which I am convinced that it will stand firm, and I feel uncertain whether I am in general on the right track."
— Albert Einstein, on his 70th birthday, in a letter to Maurice Solovine, 28 March 1949 (in B. Hoffman Albert Einstein: Creator and Rebel 1972, p.32



What is mass anyway? Neither Newtons nor Einstiens stuff fully explains the motions witnessed I guess or there wouldn't be so bloody many unanswered questions, would there? The currents have been detected and mapped by X-ray emmissions, x-rays come from electric currents you know. I'll find it later tonight, I noted it somewhere.
[/SIZE]


[SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE]
 
Last edited:

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
[SIZE=+1] Neither Newtons nor Einstiens stuff fully explains the motions witnessed I guess or there wouldn't be so bloody many unanswered questions, would there? [/SIZE]
I don't see the relevance of those little tidbits about Einstein. His special and general theories have not collapsed like a house of cards, they're among the best attested, most successful, most thoroughly tested scientific theories we have. We know they're not the whole story, because they and quantum theory are fundamentally inconsistent (so we know quantum theory isn't the whole story either), but that's quite different from being fundamentally wrong, as the electric universe theory claims. What are these motions of solar system bodies, these unanswered questions, that Newton's and Einstein's equations don't explain? I've never seen any attempt to explain observed orbital motions using anything but their theories of gravity.
[SIZE=+1]The currents have been detected and mapped by X-ray emmissions, x-rays come from electric currents you know.[/SIZE]
Not necessarily, and not always. Electric currents are one way to produce x-rays under the right circumstances, but not all electric currents produce x-rays--you won't get them from your home wiring for instance--and there are other ways to produce them, like very high temperatures, collisions, and nuclear reactions. I'd like to see a map of these currents. From a reputable source.

Why the sudden shift to a large bold font? I'm not assuming you mean to yell, you're generally more polite than that, but it's a little off-putting.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
I don't see the relevance of those little tidbits about Einstein. His special and general theories have not collapsed like a house of cards, they're among the best attested, most successful, most thoroughly tested scientific theories we have. We know they're not the whole story, because they and quantum theory are fundamentally inconsistent (so we know quantum theory isn't the whole story either), but that's quite different from being fundamentally wrong, as the electric universe theory claims. What are these motions of solar system bodies, these unanswered questions, that Newton's and Einstein's equations don't explain? I've never seen any attempt to explain observed orbital motions using anything but their theories of gravity. Not necessarily, and not always. Electric currents are one way to produce x-rays under the right circumstances, but not all electric currents produce x-rays--you won't get them from your home wiring for instance--and there are other ways to produce them, like very high temperatures, collisions, and nuclear reactions. I'd like to see a map of these currents. From a reputable source.

Why the sudden shift to a large bold font? I'm not assuming you mean to yell, you're generally more polite than that, but it's a little off-putting.

The text size was embedded somehow. Of course I'm not yelling, I have infinite patience in the face of stubborn dogmatic intransigence. Newtons work is fine but it does not explain the accreation of the sun or the planets, it gives no hint at all about how dust and ice in the absence of an initial source of gravity fell into what we know as the sun when it should have disapated. Newtons work I believe is fine with a preexisting model but does not explain the origin. Your insistance on reputable sourcing is somewhat odd in the light of our discussion especially since at least part of my bugaboo is with those same alegedly reputable sources. When I find the math and the maps which I have seen I will post them. Maybe you'll provide me with the math, maps and proof of black holes, dark matter/energy, bent spacetime etc.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
Someday we'll have a nice long look at the list of things you didn't know Toro. I hope you've gotten out of financials.:smile:


How is that complete collapse of capitalism you "guaranteed" by spring 2008, that was "utterly inevitable" and to be followed by "the utter collapse of government in the United States within a few months". Did that happen? Refresh my memory.. I don't recall If my daily commute involves leather, hockey gear and crossbows or not.

You should start to consider DB that you MIGHT not be right all the time.