Newbie
Posts: 5 
September 1st, 2007, 01:47 PM
These days everybody and their wife seem to have an opinion on Edmonton and Calgary - and the information is not always consistent. So, without further ado (and, believe me, I'm definitely not trolling here, just being curious, having never visited Alberta), here are some (tired) slogans I'd like you to comment upon:
1."Calgary is whiter than Edmonton" (alternative version: "Edmonton is more multicultural than Calgary" - why would it be?);
2."Edmonton is more of a blue-collar kind of a city" (huh?.. say what? what could this possibly mean today - it's not a mining town, is it? how can a metropolis be "blue-collar"?);
3. "Relocating to Calgary is not recommended (finance-wise), if you're not in the oil business" (huh again: we're talking about another metropolis here, not about Ft. McMurray);
4. "Calgary is more conservative, Edmonton is more left-wing" (but then, people also tend to define Northern Alberta as "the most conservative area in this country");
5. "Housing is more expensive in Calgary, but also better" (alternative version "Edmonton is cheaper, but its houses are not that attractive" - having browsed MLS and other realtors' sites, I found it only to be marginally cheaper - and not "uglier").
(more to follow...)
These days everybody and their wife seem to have an opinion on Edmonton and Calgary - and the information is not always consistent. So, without further ado (and, believe me, I'm definitely not trolling here, just being curious, having never visited Alberta), here are some (tired) slogans I'd like you to comment upon:
1."Calgary is whiter than Edmonton" (alternative version: "Edmonton is more multicultural than Calgary" - why would it be?);
2."Edmonton is more of a blue-collar kind of a city" (huh?.. say what? what could this possibly mean today - it's not a mining town, is it? how can a metropolis be "blue-collar"?);
3. "Relocating to Calgary is not recommended (finance-wise), if you're not in the oil business" (huh again: we're talking about another metropolis here, not about Ft. McMurray);
4. "Calgary is more conservative, Edmonton is more left-wing" (but then, people also tend to define Northern Alberta as "the most conservative area in this country");
5. "Housing is more expensive in Calgary, but also better" (alternative version "Edmonton is cheaper, but its houses are not that attractive" - having browsed MLS and other realtors' sites, I found it only to be marginally cheaper - and not "uglier").
(more to follow...)
September 1st, 2007, 07:27 PM
1."Calgary is whiter than Edmonton" (alternative version: "Edmonton is more multicultural than Calgary" - why would it be?);
I don't know WHY, but Edmonton has more visible minorities. I've known visible minorities who have lived both in Edmonton and Calgary, and they have found their skin color is a non-issue here, where it was noticed much more in Calgary. I see more visible minorities here than when I visit Calgary. Why is a bit of a moot point... it just IS.
2."Edmonton is more of a blue-collar kind of a city" (huh?.. say what? what could this possibly mean today - it's not a mining town, is it? how can a metropolis be "blue-collar"?);
Calgary is largely defined in people's minds by the vast number of corporate headquarters housed there. Edmonton does not have as broad a base of 'head offices'. Thus, yes, it seems a bit more blue collar.
3. "Relocating to Calgary is not recommended (finance-wise), if you're not in the oil business" (huh again: we're talking about another metropolis here, not about Ft. McMurray);
Again, those pesky head offices. Many of the oil companies have started giving 'moving bonuses' to their workers, to try to balance out the housing issue, which has the unfortunate side effect of giving oil industry workers more money to spend on housing, thus they win the bidding wars, and create a rise in the prices. Many other jobs in Calgary just don't pay as well as those related to the large core of oil company offices. It's not Fort McMurray, you're right there. It RUNS Fort McMurray, and many people often forget that.
4. "Calgary is more conservative, Edmonton is more left-wing" (but then, people also tend to define Northern Alberta as "the most conservative area in this country");
Calgary advertises itself as a rodeo, cowboy town. Edmonton advertises itself as an arts center. Those political spectra are ones that coincide with the images the cities work so hard at projecting. And oddly enough, the citizens seem to live up to them a bit. As for Northern Alberta, having lived nowhere BUT the North, I can't attest to the conservative nature of other areas, but I can't imagine anyone being more conservative than that!
As for housing... Edmonton's boom is so recent that it hasn't registered in many people's minds that it is close to Calgary. It has however registered in mine, given what I had to pay for my home. lol
welcome to the forum.
1."Calgary is whiter than Edmonton" (alternative version: "Edmonton is more multicultural than Calgary" - why would it be?);
I don't know WHY, but Edmonton has more visible minorities. I've known visible minorities who have lived both in Edmonton and Calgary, and they have found their skin color is a non-issue here, where it was noticed much more in Calgary. I see more visible minorities here than when I visit Calgary. Why is a bit of a moot point... it just IS.
2."Edmonton is more of a blue-collar kind of a city" (huh?.. say what? what could this possibly mean today - it's not a mining town, is it? how can a metropolis be "blue-collar"?);
Calgary is largely defined in people's minds by the vast number of corporate headquarters housed there. Edmonton does not have as broad a base of 'head offices'. Thus, yes, it seems a bit more blue collar.
3. "Relocating to Calgary is not recommended (finance-wise), if you're not in the oil business" (huh again: we're talking about another metropolis here, not about Ft. McMurray);
Again, those pesky head offices. Many of the oil companies have started giving 'moving bonuses' to their workers, to try to balance out the housing issue, which has the unfortunate side effect of giving oil industry workers more money to spend on housing, thus they win the bidding wars, and create a rise in the prices. Many other jobs in Calgary just don't pay as well as those related to the large core of oil company offices. It's not Fort McMurray, you're right there. It RUNS Fort McMurray, and many people often forget that.
4. "Calgary is more conservative, Edmonton is more left-wing" (but then, people also tend to define Northern Alberta as "the most conservative area in this country");
Calgary advertises itself as a rodeo, cowboy town. Edmonton advertises itself as an arts center. Those political spectra are ones that coincide with the images the cities work so hard at projecting. And oddly enough, the citizens seem to live up to them a bit. As for Northern Alberta, having lived nowhere BUT the North, I can't attest to the conservative nature of other areas, but I can't imagine anyone being more conservative than that!
As for housing... Edmonton's boom is so recent that it hasn't registered in many people's minds that it is close to Calgary. It has however registered in mine, given what I had to pay for my home. lol
welcome to the forum.
Newbie
Posts: 27
September 1st, 2007, 09:20 PM
I can answer question #2: because I lived in both Edmonton and Calgary.
Most of the buildings in Edmonton have old designs, "Just imagined what New York buildings designs was like in the 1930's up to the 1950's"
I know that everytime I enter Edmonton, I think of Ralph Cramden' New York from the TV show The Honeymooners.
IMO... I think that why most people say that Edmonton has that "blue collars" feelings.
In Calgary, the buildings in the downtown and surrounding areas have more of a "modern looking" designs
Kinda like a "mini-version" of the opening of that 80's TV show Dallas
I can answer question #2: because I lived in both Edmonton and Calgary.
Quote:
Edmonton has a lots of old looking buildings outside downtown area, not to say that it is "old".
"Edmonton is more of a blue-collar kind of a city" (huh?.. say what? what could this possibly mean today - it's not a mining town, is it? how can a metropolis be "blue-collar"?);
Most of the buildings in Edmonton have old designs, "Just imagined what New York buildings designs was like in the 1930's up to the 1950's"
I know that everytime I enter Edmonton, I think of Ralph Cramden' New York from the TV show The Honeymooners.
IMO... I think that why most people say that Edmonton has that "blue collars" feelings.
In Calgary, the buildings in the downtown and surrounding areas have more of a "modern looking" designs
Kinda like a "mini-version" of the opening of that 80's TV show Dallas
Newbie
Posts: 5
September 2nd, 2007, 10:38 AM
Now that's interesting: usually, an "arts center" is a "progressive" place (e.g. Montreal vs. Quebec City, "progressive" vs "conservative"). So, how come Edmonton is conservative while being more artistically inclined?
(Hey, I'm just your average Sunday sociologist
)
Quoting karrie
Hi Karrie, Calgary advertises itself as a rodeo, cowboy town. Edmonton advertises itself as an arts center. Those political spectra are ones that coincide with the images the cities work so hard at projecting. And oddly enough, the citizens seem to live up to them a bit.
As for Northern Alberta, having lived nowhere BUT the North, I can't attest to the conservative nature of other areas, but I can't imagine anyone being more conservative than that!
As for Northern Alberta, having lived nowhere BUT the North, I can't attest to the conservative nature of other areas, but I can't imagine anyone being more conservative than that!
Now that's interesting: usually, an "arts center" is a "progressive" place (e.g. Montreal vs. Quebec City, "progressive" vs "conservative"). So, how come Edmonton is conservative while being more artistically inclined?
(Hey, I'm just your average Sunday sociologist
)
September 2nd, 2007, 01:40 PM
Quoting jcd
You're changing what you've stated from your original post, where you say people say Edmonton is left-wing. That is not the same as conservative. Edmonton has a reputation of being left-leaning, not conservative, which fits with an arts oriented city.
Hi Karrie,
Now that's interesting: usually, an "arts center" is a "progressive" place (e.g. Montreal vs. Quebec City, "progressive" vs "conservative"). So, how come Edmonton is conservative while being more artistically inclined?
(Hey, I'm just your average Sunday sociologist)
Now that's interesting: usually, an "arts center" is a "progressive" place (e.g. Montreal vs. Quebec City, "progressive" vs "conservative"). So, how come Edmonton is conservative while being more artistically inclined?
(Hey, I'm just your average Sunday sociologist
)
Newbie
Posts: 5
September 2nd, 2007, 03:07 PM
Quoting karrie
No, in my initial post I was quoting some things people are saying about Edmonton and Calgary - I realised that it was utterly inconsistent to say "Northern Alberta is conservative" and "Edmonton is left-wing". That's why I asked you guys to comment on those (apparently self-contradictory) statements.
You're changing what you've stated from your original post, where you say people say Edmonton is left-wing. That is not the same as conservative. Edmonton has a reputation of being left-leaning, not conservative, which fits with an arts oriented city.
September 2nd, 2007, 03:18 PM
Quoting jcd
Most northern Albertans don't consider Edmonton to belong to the north though. When you have to drive 8 hrs south to arrive there, it doesn't seem northern. lol. Most actual northerners would consider it central.
No, in my initial post I was quoting some things people are saying about Edmonton and Calgary - I realised that it was utterly inconsistent to say "Northern Alberta is conservative" and "Edmonton is left-wing". That's why I asked you guys to comment on those (apparently self-contradictory) statements.
Newbie
Posts: 5
September 2nd, 2007, 05:30 PM
Quoting karrie
Aaah... got it now, thanks.
Most northern Albertans don't consider Edmonton to belong to the north though. When you have to drive 8 hrs south to arrive there, it doesn't seem northern. lol. Most actual northerners would consider it central.
Newbie
Posts: 5
September 2nd, 2007, 07:28 PM
Quoting karrie
Another question: I have a map of Alberta in front of me; what still puzzles me is the fact that there seem to be very few cities north of Edmonton (Ft. Saskatchewan, St.Albert, Cold Lake, Grande Prairie) - is this what "Northern Alberta" is comprised of? Or is it that "conservative Northern Alberta" is actually the rural space, not the cities?
Most northern Albertans don't consider Edmonton to belong to the north though. When you have to drive 8 hrs south to arrive there, it doesn't seem northern. lol. Most actual northerners would consider it central.
Member
Posts: 71
September 2nd, 2007, 07:29 PM
I live in Edmonton, Was born here but I lived about 10 years in Calgary also.
I would suggest both cities are quite racially mixed. No real difference in my opinion. Edmonton is definitely more of a blue collar city than Calgary. Calgary has it's "Blue Collar" areas of the city but I would suggest that there are definitely demarcation points between where the Blue collars hang out and live and where the white collars hang out and live. Edmonton on the other hand is full of industrial areas and Blue collar pretty much everywhere. 2/3's of the city is downright depressing in my opinion while the other parts are sort of nice but ridiculously unfordable nowadays. Edmonton is stuck out in the middle of nowhere, flat prairie as far as the eye can see. Calgary is quite allot prettier in my opinion, beautiful mountains, foothills etc.
Edmonton could be classified as a city of slobs while Calgary is more a city of snobs. I don't mean this based on blue collar vs white collar but I just find that there are allot of scruffy, slobbish, ill mannered people living in Edmonton where as Calgary is more refined but a little more stuck up. You are judged by the size of your wallet. I was sitting at the lights the other day and a beat up old truck full of really rough looking guys sitting in front of me, passenger hangs out of the window and blows his nose all over the side of the truck. I had to laugh, typical Edmonton. The other day I saw a guy on the side of the road, throwing his guts up. Almost once a week I get approached by some drug addicted panhandler, they seem to be everywhere in this city. This happens when you get an industrial boom, allot of drifters and undesirables move into the city.
Cost of living wise, Edmonton and Calgary are both ridiculously expensive or anywhere in Alberta for that matter. If you are not making at least twice what you are making somewhere else, don't even bother moving, you won't get ahead. As far as houses looking cheaper in Edmonton, I wouldn't say they are any different. What you get for just under 400k will make you cry though. Extremely cheap constructed shoe boxes.
Calgary and Edmonton are both quite Conservative. The only reason Edmonton is sometimes considered more left is because the Liberals actually sometimes win one or two seats in the city. This hardly what I call a strong Liberal presence. If you are coming from Ontario or Quebec, you will probably be a little shocked because, yes, Alberta is very Conservative.
I live in Edmonton, Was born here but I lived about 10 years in Calgary also.
I would suggest both cities are quite racially mixed. No real difference in my opinion. Edmonton is definitely more of a blue collar city than Calgary. Calgary has it's "Blue Collar" areas of the city but I would suggest that there are definitely demarcation points between where the Blue collars hang out and live and where the white collars hang out and live. Edmonton on the other hand is full of industrial areas and Blue collar pretty much everywhere. 2/3's of the city is downright depressing in my opinion while the other parts are sort of nice but ridiculously unfordable nowadays. Edmonton is stuck out in the middle of nowhere, flat prairie as far as the eye can see. Calgary is quite allot prettier in my opinion, beautiful mountains, foothills etc.
Edmonton could be classified as a city of slobs while Calgary is more a city of snobs. I don't mean this based on blue collar vs white collar but I just find that there are allot of scruffy, slobbish, ill mannered people living in Edmonton where as Calgary is more refined but a little more stuck up. You are judged by the size of your wallet. I was sitting at the lights the other day and a beat up old truck full of really rough looking guys sitting in front of me, passenger hangs out of the window and blows his nose all over the side of the truck. I had to laugh, typical Edmonton. The other day I saw a guy on the side of the road, throwing his guts up. Almost once a week I get approached by some drug addicted panhandler, they seem to be everywhere in this city. This happens when you get an industrial boom, allot of drifters and undesirables move into the city.
Cost of living wise, Edmonton and Calgary are both ridiculously expensive or anywhere in Alberta for that matter. If you are not making at least twice what you are making somewhere else, don't even bother moving, you won't get ahead. As far as houses looking cheaper in Edmonton, I wouldn't say they are any different. What you get for just under 400k will make you cry though. Extremely cheap constructed shoe boxes.
Calgary and Edmonton are both quite Conservative. The only reason Edmonton is sometimes considered more left is because the Liberals actually sometimes win one or two seats in the city. This hardly what I call a strong Liberal presence. If you are coming from Ontario or Quebec, you will probably be a little shocked because, yes, Alberta is very Conservative.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 740
September 3rd, 2007, 02:12 AM
1."Calgary is whiter than Edmonton" (alternative version: "Edmonton is more multicultural than Calgary" - why would it be?);
Never noticed ... anything we should know about the people that say things like that?
2."Edmonton is more of a blue-collar kind of a city" (huh?.. say what? what could this possibly mean today - it's not a mining town, is it? how can a metropolis be "blue-collar"?);
Well yes, Calgary has the head offices of many oil companies. Edmonton is home to many families where the head of the household works in the great white North - on the rigs, the blue collar guys. Living in Fort Mac is even more expensive than Calgary, so the family lives in Edmonton and sees the head of the household on day 24 or whenever that person is released from the long hours (and $30+ per hour) working in the oilfields.
3. "Relocating to Calgary is not recommended (finance-wise), if you're not in the oil business" (huh again: we're talking about another metropolis here, not about Ft. McMurray);
Calgary actually has many jobs unrelated to oil. In fact, law enforcement is looking like it needs some help these days. In you're in the oil business in Calgary, you should be white collar because, like I said, this is where the business end of oil business is happening. If you're blue collar, you need to be where the rigs are and that's all point North.
4. "Calgary is more conservative, Edmonton is more left-wing" (but then, people also tend to define Northern Alberta as "the most conservative area in this country");
Calgary is wealthier and wealthier means Conservative, less wealthy means Liberal and really unwealthy means NDP. Northern Alberta means buckets of money, so again, Conservative.
5. "Housing is more expensive in Calgary, but also better" (alternative version "Edmonton is cheaper, but its houses are not that attractive" - having browsed MLS and other realtors' sites, I found it only to be marginally cheaper - and not "uglier").
You can get a 600 sq. ft. condo (no elevator) in Calgary for about $250 - $300k. You can get a regular house for anywhere between about $425k and $1.3 million; more for a fancy house. Edmonton is definitely cheaper, trust me. As for ugly, Calgary has been booming for decades and other than a little blip in the 80s (national economy problem), it's still booming. New houses are built when Calgary is booming, but Edmonton hasn't experienced anything like what Calgary has seen over the last 30-40 years.. Edmonton is like a small town in comparison. Visit the two cities and you won't be asking these questions anymore.
1."Calgary is whiter than Edmonton" (alternative version: "Edmonton is more multicultural than Calgary" - why would it be?);
Never noticed ... anything we should know about the people that say things like that?
2."Edmonton is more of a blue-collar kind of a city" (huh?.. say what? what could this possibly mean today - it's not a mining town, is it? how can a metropolis be "blue-collar"?);
Well yes, Calgary has the head offices of many oil companies. Edmonton is home to many families where the head of the household works in the great white North - on the rigs, the blue collar guys. Living in Fort Mac is even more expensive than Calgary, so the family lives in Edmonton and sees the head of the household on day 24 or whenever that person is released from the long hours (and $30+ per hour) working in the oilfields.
3. "Relocating to Calgary is not recommended (finance-wise), if you're not in the oil business" (huh again: we're talking about another metropolis here, not about Ft. McMurray);
Calgary actually has many jobs unrelated to oil. In fact, law enforcement is looking like it needs some help these days. In you're in the oil business in Calgary, you should be white collar because, like I said, this is where the business end of oil business is happening. If you're blue collar, you need to be where the rigs are and that's all point North.
4. "Calgary is more conservative, Edmonton is more left-wing" (but then, people also tend to define Northern Alberta as "the most conservative area in this country");
Calgary is wealthier and wealthier means Conservative, less wealthy means Liberal and really unwealthy means NDP. Northern Alberta means buckets of money, so again, Conservative.
5. "Housing is more expensive in Calgary, but also better" (alternative version "Edmonton is cheaper, but its houses are not that attractive" - having browsed MLS and other realtors' sites, I found it only to be marginally cheaper - and not "uglier").
You can get a 600 sq. ft. condo (no elevator) in Calgary for about $250 - $300k. You can get a regular house for anywhere between about $425k and $1.3 million; more for a fancy house. Edmonton is definitely cheaper, trust me. As for ugly, Calgary has been booming for decades and other than a little blip in the 80s (national economy problem), it's still booming. New houses are built when Calgary is booming, but Edmonton hasn't experienced anything like what Calgary has seen over the last 30-40 years.. Edmonton is like a small town in comparison. Visit the two cities and you won't be asking these questions anymore.
Clever Clogs
Posts: 740
September 3rd, 2007, 02:30 AM
It's not stuck up ... not exactly condescending ... but apparently chauvinistic.
Quoting Jsan
Edmonton also has that chauvinistic inclination. I met a guy that was doing mechcad and, based on what he was saying, I thought maybe I knew it by another name ... but this guy was not inclined to tell me what it was; perhaps because he didn't think I would understand. I do know it by another name: Autodesk Inventor. I had to find that out on my own ... because he never did take the time to actually answer my question. I tried asking the same question at least three different ways - in case he didn't understand my question ... but nope, he wasn't going to admit that a female may know as much as he did about mechcad.
I live in Edmonton, Was born here but I lived about 10 years in Calgary also.
<snipped for response purposes>
Edmonton could be classified as a city of slobs while Calgary is more a city of snobs. I don't mean this based on blue collar vs white collar but I just find that there are allot of scruffy, slobbish, ill mannered people living in Edmonton where as Calgary is more refined but a little more stuck up.
<snipped for response purposes>
Edmonton could be classified as a city of slobs while Calgary is more a city of snobs. I don't mean this based on blue collar vs white collar but I just find that there are allot of scruffy, slobbish, ill mannered people living in Edmonton where as Calgary is more refined but a little more stuck up.
It's not stuck up ... not exactly condescending ... but apparently chauvinistic.
September 3rd, 2007, 10:51 AM
The surrounding areas are farming communities and little villages whose only claim to fame may be an oilfield camp, or a rich oil field. There is so much rural area, that the 'city folk' are a tiny minority, and don't register much into the way northern Albertans view themselves.
Quoting jcd
There are few cities, but they are small cities, comprised largely of oil boom workers. Even those small cities can often be considered, 'conservative', although the more common term is 'redneck'.
Another question: I have a map of Alberta in front of me; what still puzzles me is the fact that there seem to be very few cities north of Edmonton (Ft. Saskatchewan, St.Albert, Cold Lake, Grande Prairie) - is this what "Northern Alberta" is comprised of? Or is it that "conservative Northern Alberta" is actually the rural space, not the cities?
The surrounding areas are farming communities and little villages whose only claim to fame may be an oilfield camp, or a rich oil field. There is so much rural area, that the 'city folk' are a tiny minority, and don't register much into the way northern Albertans view themselves.
Newbie
Posts: 20
October 20th, 2007, 03:29 PM
pretty much sums up edmonton
Quoting Jsan
I was sitting at the lights the other day and a beat up old truck full of really rough looking guys sitting in front of me, passenger hangs out of the window and blows his nose all over the side of the truck.
pretty much sums up edmonton
Clever Clogs
Posts: 709 
Location: Ardrossan, Alberta
Location: Ardrossan, Alberta
October 20th, 2007, 11:24 PM
I would like to also answer no.2 Edmonton has all the modular yards - these are facilities that produce pre fabricated modules for the oilsands plants- Oilsand plants are largely built in modules (15ft. x 60 ft.x 25 ft high on average), shipped to ft mac on tractor trailers (mammoet) and put together there. there are abouut 10 to 15 of these yards around the city and they employ thousands of trades (blue collar).
I would like to also answer no.2 Edmonton has all the modular yards - these are facilities that produce pre fabricated modules for the oilsands plants- Oilsand plants are largely built in modules (15ft. x 60 ft.x 25 ft high on average), shipped to ft mac on tractor trailers (mammoet) and put together there. there are abouut 10 to 15 of these yards around the city and they employ thousands of trades (blue collar).
Time Out
Posts: 866
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
October 20th, 2007, 11:40 PM
Ok, when I read the first part of #1, my first thought was "I didn't know they had more snow in Calgary". Honest. So, I don't know the answer to this one either.
Quoting jcd
I'm only going to #1 because I honestly have no idea about the answers to the other questions since it has been years since I have travelled across Canada. I did live in the Yukon for awhile but that was in 1977 and doesn't pertain to this thread.
These days everybody and their wife seem to have an opinion on Edmonton and Calgary - and the information is not always consistent. So, without further ado (and, believe me, I'm definitely not trolling here, just being curious, having never visited Alberta), here are some (tired) slogans I'd like you to comment upon:
1."Calgary is whiter than Edmonton" (alternative version: "Edmonton is more multicultural than Calgary" - why would it be?);
1."Calgary is whiter than Edmonton" (alternative version: "Edmonton is more multicultural than Calgary" - why would it be?);
Ok, when I read the first part of #1, my first thought was "I didn't know they had more snow in Calgary". Honest. So, I don't know the answer to this one either.
Member
Posts: 120
February 24th, 2008, 02:31 PM
I personally feel Edmonton's river valley is second to none. I've lived both in Edmonton and Calgary and found that Calgary's was actually quite ugly. But, having said that, I had lived in Edmonton for years without realizing what a treasure we had. It wasn't until my husband was being transferred and, after our furniture had been packed up, we were staying at one of the high-rise hotels that overlook the river valley. OMG - it's beautiful. Saw it from a completely difference perspective.
JMO
I personally feel Edmonton's river valley is second to none. I've lived both in Edmonton and Calgary and found that Calgary's was actually quite ugly. But, having said that, I had lived in Edmonton for years without realizing what a treasure we had. It wasn't until my husband was being transferred and, after our furniture had been packed up, we were staying at one of the high-rise hotels that overlook the river valley. OMG - it's beautiful. Saw it from a completely difference perspective.
JMO
