Welfare pays more than work in most states

[Sal]

It was Burger King.



The only job that comes to mind for that is truck loaders at UPS... and they're Union.

Not all jobs are meant to be a livable wage.

And that is where the struggle comes in.
But Burger King (at least back a couple of years ago);-) had the foresight to see that employee retention is vital to their survival and that means keeping good people

I'm a slave to my d*ck... Does that mean gvt should be writing me cheques?.. I am a slave after all



You were in the business world, eh?.. How much corporate welfare did you get?... Pay any corp taxes at all? Payroll taxes maybe?.. Did the insurance companies, donate coverage for dental, optical, medical and what not?.. How about when you moved cash from the corp entity to yourself personally - did you get to pay (income) tax again?

BTW - not all business' make huge profits on the backs of their employees, but even if they do - that's the result of spending a crap ton of cash on operations in addition to assuming tremendous risks. I sure hope that you're not under the impression that people are going to risk their time and money exclusively for the purpose of funding welfare



Your applying band-aids after the fact... What on earth is going through someone's mind if they aren't in a position to be responsible for themselves to start a family or if they are on the edge already, not to take steps to mitigate the circumstance?

This points directly to the consequences thingy I am getting at... In continually upping the ante, you absolve people taking responsibility for themselves and family.

By the way, there is no lack of people that elect to become baby factories in order to generate more income.




All you're providing is an environment that motivates people to ignore their responsibilities.



Agreed... But you won't accomplish this by paying them more now, will you?

.. And on the 'beating a beaten dog'.... Society isn't beating these people - they are beating themselves.

You start with the children, if you are not willing to invest in the future then there is no future...and the cycle continues. It would appear you feel the situation is hopeless since unless it involves punishment you feel it encourages continuation even by helping the very young.

And then there are jobs that pay liveable wages, but you just have to work 90 hours a week to live! -

that can not be sustained though, one can do that if there is a long term goal leading to betterment, I think we all did that

In the states... it's not the goal.

What is the goal?

 

[captain morgan]

You start with the children, if you are not willing to invest in the future then there is no future...and the cycle continues. It would appear you feel the situation is hopeless since unless it involves punishment you feel it encourages continuation even by helping the very young.

No punishment Sal... The system has to stop rewarding people for being idiots.

You know as well as I do, that regardless of the income level you provide - it will never be enough.... Not by a long shot.

If you are dead set against fixing the hole in the boat, you will be forever bailing it out and all the while wondering why water keeps coming in

 

[Machjo]

I generally agree with you, Sal, at least in principle with regards to your intentions.

However, I'll use diving as an analogy. Supposing I want to dive underwater to explore some underwater caves. I won't just put on my swimsuit and dive since I'd drown. This is not to say I should not go down there, but rather that I should have science on my side. SCUBA gear has been proven as an effective tool, so I'll put that on and go.

In the same way, while helping the poor should be a goal, we must avoid knee-jerk reactions. God gave us minds for a reason. Government spends good money on education and research and on hiring professional economists and researchers to advise on government policy. If hard research shows that the minimum wage is harmful, do we base policy on feel-good knee-jerk reactions or on research. After all, of what use is government funding of univrsities and research if we then ignore the results anyway? What's the use of education if we don't actually apply. Good money has been spent to study the economic effect of the minimum wage, so we might as well put these studies to good use and apply it.

If you are dead set against fixing the hole in the boat, you will be forever bailing it out and all the while wondering why water keeps coming in

this reminds me of a story I heard once. A woman had a dream that she was pulling drowning people out of a flowing river, but no matter how hard she worked, there was always another person passing by and drowning. Exhausted, she took a quick break and, looking up-river, she sees a man standing there with his hand to his chin, looking at the river and doing nothing.

Angry, she yells asks him what he is doing standing there watching while people are drowning, to which he answers:

I'm planning to build a dam.

Some alternatives to a minimum wage that try to avoid its negative effects are proposed here:

Minimum wage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I kind of like the idea of collective bargaining, depending on how it's done. In the form of codetermination laws, which Germany and a few other countries have, I coudl see that.

In short, social policy has to be based on proven systems based on research, not emotional knee-jerk reactions.

 

[captain morgan]

I kind of like the idea of collective bargaining, depending on how it's done. In the form of codetermination laws, which Germany and a few other countries have, I coudl see that.

In short, social policy has to be based on proven systems based on research, not emotional knee-jerk reactions.

We've talked about this... You don't need any legislation in place; all it takes is the interest and will power for the labour element to invest in, and actively participate in the operation of the company.

 

[Machjo]

We've talked about this... You don't need any legislation in place; all it takes is the interest and will power for the labour element to invest in, and actively participate in the operation of the company.

The truly poor cannot do that. Codetermination legislation ensures that in those cases where it is in the best interest of workers to take wage reductions, that it is done in consultation.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

The problem is the rule book. If it gets too bad, there will be a paradigm shift.

Only question is how violent the paradigm shift will be.

 

[Machjo]

But you're right that even without legislaiotn, some workers will choose voluntarily to consult with staff for God's sake and not just owing to imposed laws.

 

[Sal]

No punishment Sal... The system has to stop rewarding people for being idiots.

You know as well as I do, that regardless of the income level you provide - it will never be enough.... Not by a long shot.

If you are dead set against fixing the hole in the boat, you will be forever bailing it out and all the while wondering why water keeps coming in

.
The only way to fix the hole in the boat CM is by starting with the kids. You have to change their mind set and the way to change their mind set is to win them over and you do that by feeding them physically, mentally and emotionally. You mentor and nurture and support and it will happen. We have to start with the mess we are in. One kid at a time. Yup.

The problem is the rule book. If it gets too bad, there will be a paradigm shift.

Only question is how violent the paradigm shift will be.

let's try to avoid that

 

[captain morgan]

The truly poor cannot do that. Codetermination legislation ensures that in those cases where it is in the best interest of workers to take wage reductions, that it is done in consultation.

It's a knife that cuts both ways Machjo.

Smart and responsible decisions require that people have skin in the game. That reality promotes a degree of thoughtfulness and responsible decision-making.

Fed or provincial regulations notwithstanding, I for one, would not invest in any company where gvt legislated that 3rd party had any control in the company

.
The only way to fix the hole in the boat CM is by starting with the kids. You have to change their mind set and the way to change their mind set is to win them over and you do that by feeding them physically, mentally and emotionally. You mentor and nurture and support and it will happen. We have to start with the mess we are in. One kid at a time. Yup.

There are already so many state-sponsored programs in place that it makes the mind boggle.

You still refuse to look at the root of the problem here and until such time, any go-forward suggestions work only to prolong the issue

 

[gore0bsessed]

Social responsibility is a 2-way street and while I believe that there is an obligation to help, it is tempered by the ideal that a hand-up is better than a hand out.

As it stands, the system today is little more than a demand to provide people with a lifestyle regardless of the poor decisions that are made... maybe attach a few consequences to people and their choices and you'll see fewer stupid choices

what are you even talking about? you believe social security is providing a "lifestyle" ? LOL what lifestyle is that, possibly holding your head up just above the poverty line? why also do you assume because they need welfare it's a result of 'poor decisions they made' rather than something completely out of their control?
frankly if what you believe is true, that most people would rather be on social security than work, that would lead to me to believe there is something horribly wrong with jobs today. maybe no one wants to work mundane 8+ hour shifts in a modern era where we have advanced our technology to the point where it isn't necessary to work those hours anymore.
i definitely don't believe the laziness argument. how you could believe someone chooses a poorer lifestyle , one that is horribly stigmatized, simply because they're too lazy to do otherwise is beyond my comprehension.

 

[Sal]

There are already so many state-sponsored programs in place that it makes the mind boggle.

You still refuse to look at the root of the problem here and until such time, any go-forward suggestions work only to prolong the issue

There are many federally and provincially sponsored programs in place now finally. It will take time until society begins to reap the benefit of having put those systems in place.

I am not refusing to look at the root of the problem. The root of the problem is beyond complex because there are so many societal, psychological and social factors involved. We are complex beings.

You think the root of the problem is laziness but it is not. If you address a problem and do not understand it's root, the problem cannot be solved, and then yes it will prolong the issue.

 

[Machjo]

It's a knife that cuts both ways Machjo.

Smart and responsible decisions require that people have skin in the game. That reality promotes a degree of thoughtfulness and responsible decision-making.

Not always. people with skin in the game might also ignore certain moral or ethical standards, whether it's with regard to the environment or other things, that are technically legal but workers are not comfortable venturing into. Codetermiantion legislation ensures consultation is required before a decision is made. Sometimes having skin in the game causes one to see absolutely nothing but money. Not always, but often.

Fed or provincial regulations notwithstanding, I for one, would not invest in any company where gvt legislated that 3rd party had any control in the company

So you would refuse to invest in Sweden, Germany, and Denmark? If you think about it, in some respects, co-determination legislation is even less intrusive than minimum wage legislation since in principle, in bad econommic times, workers can in fact support wage reductions in these countries. In Canada, minimum wage legislation would not allow it. Personally, I'd rather invest in a country where in bad economic times wages can legally be freely negotiated. In some cases, workers might be willing to accept something else in exchange for a wage increse that the company can access or offer cheaply.


Now you might be saying you'd rather no legislaiton either way, but if you had to choose between minimum wage and codetermination laws, which would you say is less intrusive?

There are already so many state-sponsored programs in place that it makes the mind boggle.

You still refuse to look at the root of the problem here and until such time, any go-forward suggestions work only to prolong the issue

Of course the root solution is spirituality. But go ahead with your recommendation of how to help the poor?

Now to be fair, if social security provides quality skills training, salaries woudl rise without minimum wage or codetermination, however codetermination can have otehr advantages not related to money such as if some company decisions might go into areas that are legal but morally questionable for instance, thus serving as a balance between profit and social and conscience.

We should not assume that all stockholders and CEOs are necessarily ethical. Some are.

 

[JLM]

I think I'm going to change the subject slightly and start another thread! -

 

[Sal]

I think I'm going to change the subject slightly and start another thread! -

why don't you do the one you were contemplating up further?

it should get good response.

 

[JLM]

why don't you do the one you were contemplating up further?

it should get good response.

That was probably some fleeting notion I had (amongst a dozen others) that I've long forgotten about! God damn Alzheimers. -

why don't you do the one you were contemplating up further?

it should get good response.

I like that new avatar, Sal! You better be careful, you never know what perverts that will attract! - Anyway you look pretty!

 

[Sal]

That was probably some fleeting notion I had (amongst a dozen others) that I've long forgotten about! God damn Alzheimers. -



I like that new avatar, Sal! You better be careful, you never know what perverts that will attract! - Anyway you look pretty!

thanks JLM

It was this one:

All of which leads to a burning question..................Whose responsibility is it to ensure a person earns a liveable wage?
​

Sal: You are asking a question which involves social conscience, moral and ethical obligation and also involves the level to which the society has evolved. Some societies still stone women if they get raped and a chicken is worth more than a female child other societies such as Sweden take care of their people.

Draw a line in the sand and watch everyone hop onto a side.

You need a new thread bud. :icon_smile:

Carpe Diem baby

 

[EagleSmack]

What is the goal?

Dependence

 

[Sal]

Dependence

oh lord, that is not good for anyone

 

[petros]

What about Vancouver?.. .I brought up that town for a specific reason

Can you afford to buy in Vancouver? Is there something wrong with riding the Sky Slug for 25 minutes to get to Coquitlam? It's the same city.

 

[damngrumpy]

Yes we have programs that fall under different categories, I wonder if we shouldn't be
looking for something like a guaranteed annual income for those who really can't work.
Many served their country, others contributed throughout their lives and went to work
before their affliction came to visit them.
There should be no excuses for employers to pay less and make excuses why they
should be absolved from ethics. That of course is too much to ask I suppose. If I
find out that a company or business is involved in making decisions on the value of
poor ethics I don't shop there.
It takes time to develop a policy and a direction and it takes investment most business
and other stakeholders are willing to find solutions often its good business to participate
There are those who abuse anything that is new, if we were going to do nothing because
that might happen nothing would ever get done to change things. Wait nothing is
getting done to change things.