Turkish convoy rolls to Iraq border as U.S. warns against invasion

[CBC News]

All diplomatic routes are open to ensure that Turkey holds off from invading Iraq alone, the White House said on Monday, amid thinning patience from Turkey after the weekend killings of at least 12 of its soldiers by Kurds in Iraq.

Turkish military vehicles loaded with weapons and soldiers head toward the Turkey-Iraq border on Monday.
(Ibrahim Usta/Associated Press) ​

Washington is concerned that if Turkey takes unilateral action without waiting for help from Iraq and the U.S., it could lead to a destabilization in northern Iraq — the only region of the war-ravaged country that has remained relatively stable.
But in Turkey, support for an incursion was further inflamed by Sunday's ambush from the PKK, also known as the Kurdistan Workers' Party.
U.S. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack continued to urge restraint. On Monday, it appeared Iraq had delivered its message. Reports quoting the office of Iraqi President Jalal Talabani said the Kurdish militants with the PKK would declare a ceasefire by "Monday evening."
Since the conflict between the PKK and Turkey began in 1984, it's estimated more than 30,000 people have died.
Full Story
Will Turkey invade Kurdish forces in northern Iraq? What are the implications of such a move?




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[dancing-loon]

I just read some of the comments - people are concerned, of course. I feel lucky to be living miles away from that area! It's like a powder keg down there.... anything could set off the war between Usrael and Iran.
I hope they all keep a cool head.

P.S.
I don't know what Turkey will do... am not clearvoyant!
If the Turks would invade northern Iraq I could imagine a lot of dead Kurds would be lying around.

 

[normbc9]

Robert Gates told the media that "they do this all the time." I guess Robert is hanging around that same Minnesota restroom Larry Craig has been frequenting. Maybe they'll meet and solve this next impending crisis together. This isn't the first time we've been lied to by the Secretary's of Defense or State is it? Wait until the whoppper comes out from the Secretary of the Treasury that there will be no down turns in our economy. Our dollar is shrinking daily but there is no problem. I guess heads stuck in the sand isn't particular to North African deserts any more.

 

[dancing-loon]

Robert Gates told the media that "they do this all the time." I guess Robert is hanging around that same Minnesota restroom Larry Craig has been frequenting. Maybe they'll meet and solve this next impending crisis together. This isn't the first time we've been lied to by the Secretary's of Defense or State is it? Wait until the whoppper comes out from the Secretary of the Treasury that there will be no down turns in our economy. Our dollar is shrinking daily but there is no problem. I guess heads stuck in the sand isn't particular to North African deserts any more.

It is quite possible that THIS time the squabbles are serious. Erdogan apparently said they will fight terrorism!!
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.;-) The US can't say anything against that, can they?

 

[normbc9]

dancing-Loon,
You sure touched on a valid point. Our perceptions of who is a terrorist is always slanted to allow us the call the Kurd's "nomadic peoples" and then call the Taliban "terrorists." They both are nomadic right now and in reality one cannot differentiate between the two. But with the current Admnistration in Washington it is all black and white in their confused world. We are now lied to every day by some very powerful politicians backed by some very wealthy industrial interests who no longer care about anything but power and increasing their personal wealth and it really shows now. We try to buy favor and compliance with other nations through the Foreign Aid program. I wonder how much Turkey wants this time and what it will cost the US taxpayers?

 

[dancing-loon]

dancing-Loon,
You sure touched on a valid point. Our perceptions of who is a terrorist is always slanted to allow us the call the Kurd's "nomadic peoples" and then call the Taliban "terrorists." They both are nomadic right now and in reality one cannot differentiate between the two. But with the current Admnistration in Washington it is all black and white in their confused world. We are now lied to every day by some very powerful politicians backed by some very wealthy industrial interests who no longer care about anything but power and increasing their personal wealth and it really shows now. We try to buy favor and compliance with other nations through the Foreign Aid program. I wonder how much Turkey wants this time and what it will cost the US taxpayers?

(dancing loon did the highlighting)

Hi, Norm;

sorry, I'm late answering... I had trouble getting onto the forum.
Anyway, I just wanted to show that the Iraqi government is now hiring contractors from Iran(of all countries:roll and from China. I guess the American firms have been filling their pockets a little to full.

Wasn't the agreement, that contracts would only be handed to countries who participated in the fighting? Perhaps now, that Iraq is an independent democracy, they may be allowed to make their own choices of whom they want to come in and do some work for them.

Quote
BAGHDAD, Oct. 17 — Iraq has agreed to award $1.1 billion in contracts to Iranian and Chinese companies to build a pair of enormous power plants, the Iraqi electricity minister said Tuesday. Etc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/world/middleeast/18grid.html

I haven't read anything yet about payments or bribes to Turkey, but I would bet that they will play their cards right. I would too, since there is so much money being wasted anyway.

 

[normbc9]

Dancing Loon,
When I was in Vietnamthere were some strong arm private vendors at work for the State Department too. We had very little interface with them and about half of their operations were so secret that the aircraft that inseretd them flew into Thailand and had all of their data recording instruments downloaded and placed back into a "No Data" mode. Those who crewed the missions were removed for a few days for some R & R (probably debriefing too) and then when the returned they kept their distance from the other aviation folks. I have a friend working with Fingerhut as a firefighter making $1,220. a day. Now multiply that by 778 and it is a big expensive workforce. Not bad money if you can survive the incoming and the IRS. I hope the Iraqi's continue to contract with their neighbors too. Maybe that is what will help them get back of their feet and out from under the US aegis of "Help." When the US is "helping" you don't need any enemies. You are totally under their yoke, like it or not. Do you remember the dooms day sayers when Vietnam was falling? None of it ever came to pass did it?

 

[dancing-loon]

Dancing Loon,
When I was in Vietnam there were some strong arm private vendors at work for the State Department too. We had very little interface with them and about half of their operations were so secret that the aircraft that inserted them flew into Thailand and had all of their data recording instruments downloaded and placed back into a "No Data" mode. Those who screwed the missions were removed for a few days for some R & R (probably debriefing too) and then, when they returned, they kept their distance from the other aviation folks. I have a friend working with Fingerhut as a firefighter making $1,220 a day. Now multiply that by 778 and it is a big expensive workforce. Not bad money if you can survive the incoming and the IRS. I hope the Iraqi's continue to contract with their neighbors too. Maybe that is what will help them get back of their feet and out from under the US aegis of "Help." When the US is "helping" you don't need any enemies. You are totally under their yoke, like it or not. Do you remember the dooms day sayers when Vietnam was falling? None of it ever came to pass did it?

You put me on a spot there, Norm, because I know very little about the doos day sayers and Vietnam in general, except that Canada took in a lot of the so called "draft dodgers". I'm glad we did, and wish we would do it again now, but with Harper presently at the helm that is not possible anymore.

I'm not an American and didn't have to fight in Vietnam... thank God! BUT, I have read a book a few years back about a guy fighting in Vietnam. His name was Cooper... William Cooper, I believe, and he talked about some strange stuff. Unfortunately, the Feds shot him one dark night at his house.
Have you heard of him?

What's happening in Iraq is really a "unique" business practice. The American companies charge exuberant prices for their services and get mostly away with it, because the $$ make it right back into the American economy. Same thing apparently is happening in Afghanistan. Huge amounts of money gets donated from various countries, but very little gets done for it.

Being under the American yoke if you accept their payments or favors is clear as ink. It is a strategy of the American Administration to pay various countries for their loyal cooperation in the politics of the United States. Top of the list are Israel and Egypt.

Where does your fire fighter friend work? At the fires in California? He sure does make good money, but it is also a dangerous and very hard and dirty job. He deserves his pay!!

Tell me a bit more about Vietnam, if you don't mind.

 

[normbc9]

I'm following this via the foreign media this time so maybe I'll get a different slant on things. The Turks have every right to defend their borders from intruders who snipe at ther soldiers and kill their constitutuionally elected officials. To us the intruders are patriots. To the Turks they are Terrorists. Who is right? In my opinion the Turks need every bit of soveriegn protection they can afford. The US should stay out of this fray if we are smart. There is a line and the Kurds have crossed it. The responsibilty for their actions is theirs alone. If ****aleeza wants to get involved get her a helmet and a rifle.

 

[dancing-loon]

I'm following this via the foreign media this time so maybe I'll get a different slant on things. The Turks have every right to defend their borders from intruders who snipe at ther soldiers and kill their constitutuionally elected officials. To us the intruders are patriots. To the Turks they are Terrorists. Who is right? In my opinion the Turks need every bit of soveriegn protection they can afford. The US should stay out of this fray if we are smart. There is a line and the Kurds have crossed it. The responsibilty for their actions is theirs alone. If ****aleeza wants to get involved get her a helmet and a rifle.

Hi, Norm;
I disagree with you about the Turks having every right to defend their borders. I think they go about it rather forcefully. Diplomacy would be far better and could result in a peaceful settlement, if both sides would and could be reasonable.

I kow so little about the history of those people and the region. Apparently there was a lot of strife and shifting around. And it is always the minorities that have to take it. The Turks are by no means angels, and since they have the greater power, they don't hesitate to use it, to keep the Kurds in check.

Here is a short snippet from Wikipedia that might give you an idea about the Turks:

>>>Between 1984 and 1999, the PKK and the Turkish military engaged in open war, and much of the countryside in the southeast was depopulated, with Kurdish civilians moving to local defensible centers such as Diyarbakır, Van, and Şırnak, as well as to the cities of western Turkey and even to western Europe. The causes of the depopulation included PKK atrocities against Kurdish clans they could not control, the poverty of the southeast, and the Turkish state's military operations. Human Rights Watch has documented many instances where the Turkish military forcibly evacuated villages, destroying houses and equipment to prevent the return of the inhabitants. An estimated 3,000 Kurdish villages in Turkey were virtually wiped from the map, representing the displacement of more than 378,000 people.
Nelson Mandela refused to accept the Ataturk Peace Award in 1992 because of the oppression of the Kurds. After the rejection, Turkish press called him An Ugly African and Terrorist Mandela.<<<

I find, one always has to look at the whole or greater picture of most conflicts. Take a look of what is written in the Wikipedia. I can very well understand the Kurds for wanting their own independent State, and now is the time to try and get it.

 

[normbc9]

Isn't it funny that the Turkish primwe Minister is here in DC for a meeting with Bush and gets ressured that the US will back them on their defense of their Iraqi border in the Kurd held areas and now there are two older US diesel subs getting ready to be towed to a Turkish naval installation. Am I truly deceived or what? Now we know what it cost us this time in Foreign Aid. I'll bet we keep selling arms to the Kurds too. This is all double speak and everyone should be mad as hell about the deceptive practices that the current administration is using daily. I wonder if Turkey will trade in our last batch of subs they are replacing? The financial whizs back there might use the rationale that it would be cheaper to scrap the old hulls there and give the money to another under ground Muslim extremist group. That may be another form of Foregn Aid too.

 

[dancing-loon]

Oh, is he? I haven't paid attention to the news lately.

You are not sarcastic, Norm, are you???
I wonder what those old diesel subs are supposed to do? Just a gift for the tuerkish scrap yard?

Wouldn't that be something if they supplied the Kurds rebels with weapons!! Just like they supplied the Taliban to fight the Russians or Saddam to fight Iran. Didn't they also supply him with the gas to elimimate the Kurds a while back??? What a game all this is... like a merry-go-round!

It is my estimate that the Kurds will now back off, because they haven't got a chance if the Americans get involved. So, why risk lives needlessly?

 

[normbc9]

Dancing-Loon,
No I'm not. The subs that are surplus in the nuke group are kept at Bangor (Olympic Peninsula, Washington) and Portsmouth, NH. The conventional subs are stored at Hampton Roads and San Diego under cover and in a reasonably ready to use state. My source works at The Hampton Roads facility and is a retired sub joc. He says the orders for two to be towed to the Turkish Naval Facility on the Black Sea have been issued. A private Marine Tow outfit out of Holland will handle the job. That must be some more out sourcing too. This outfit brought the Destroyer Cole home from Yemen and routinely moves Naval vessels for the government. They have been rotating the Minesweepers from the Persian Gulf this way. It is faster. The Kurds are a patient but disciplined people. They will just wait until this all blows over and then have another go at it. The Black Market arms dealers are always hungry for business.

 

[dancing-loon]

Dancing-Loon,
No I'm not. The subs that are surplus in the nuke group are kept at Bangor (Olympic Peninsula, Washington) and Portsmouth, NH. The conventional subs are stored at Hampton Roads and San Diego under cover and in a reasonably ready to use state. My source works at The Hampton Roads facility and is a retired sub joc. He says the orders for two to be towed to the Turkish Naval Facility on the Black Sea have been issued. A private Marine Tow outfit out of Holland will handle the job. That must be some more out sourcing too. This outfit brought the Destroyer Cole home from Yemen and routinely moves Naval vessels for the government. They have been rotating the Minesweepers from the Persian Gulf this way. It is faster. The Kurds are a patient but disciplined people. They will just wait until this all blows over and then have another go at it. The Black Market arms dealers are always hungry for business.

Thanks, Norm;
you are an interesting Gentleman! I find your info fascinating!
Has it not been in the news at all about the subs? Unfortunately, I've been very busy lately and not even listened to the news on TV.
It's good for Holland, though, to get such large jobs and consequently good pay for it.
I remember the incident with the COLE. That was before 9/11 even, wasn't it?

I heard Angela Merkel, the german chancellor, is now visiting Bush at his ranch. Perhaps they will talk about the Kurds crisis as well.
I'm telling you.... the politicians are busy these days!!:smile:

 

[normbc9]

The Cole incident was in 2001 and it was just another shot across the bow of the US by some very well organized and funded Muslim extremists groups. We have immediate family in the active military and they say the groups they have faced are well armed,have good communications and seem to have a network of safe houses and a lot of locals take them in either because they support them of they fear for the safety of their families. Chancellor Merkel is a lot more astute than Bush and I hope she sees through the chaf. Canada was smart to avoid the Vietnam mess. The US had formed a defense pact called the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization in 1951 (SEATO) and it claims it was engaged due to the needs of a member nation. I did three tours of duty there and all I ever saw was the US State Department running things until the TET offensive in 1968. Then someone in the US power structure decided the military minds should take command. By then it was too little, too late. But look at Vietnam now. The doomsday sayers were really wrong weren't they? If we pulled out of Iraq the only needless loss to the US would be its young men and women who gave their lives for the attempts to garner the oil resources over there. That in itself is tragic. If we don't get our political head out of our posterior the Afghanistani situation will witness the same failures the Russians did years ago.

 

[dancing-loon]

The Cole incident was in 2001 and it was just another shot across the bow of the US by some very well organized and funded Muslim extremists groups. We have immediate family in the active military and they say the groups they have faced are well armed, have good communications and seem to have a network of safe houses and a lot of locals take them in either because they support them or they fear for the safety of their families.
Chancellor Merkel is a lot more astute than Bush and I hope she sees through the chaf.

Canada was smart to avoid the Vietnam mess. The US had formed a defense pact called the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization in 1951 (SEATO) and it claims it was engaged due to the needs of a member nation. I did three tours of duty there and all I ever saw was the US State Department running things until the TET offensive in 1968. Then someone in the US power structure decided the military minds should take command. By then it was too little, too late. But look at Vietnam now. The doomsday sayers were really wrong weren't they?
If we pulled out of Iraq the only needless loss to the US would be its young men and women who gave their lives for the attempts to garner the oil resources over there. That in itself is tragic. If we don't get our political head out of our posterior the Afghanistani situation will witness the same failures the Russians did years ago.

Hi, Norm... you are full of personal knowledge about the doings of the times past and present!! In contrast, I have to always rely on filtered news and mainly on google to get things explained.. If I start to bore you, just say so... I'll listen and get over it.:lol:

You mentioned last time about Holland getting the sub-towing contract. It interested me, if there wasn't a mention of this fact. Perhaps I need to phrase my question differently, because all I came up with is this only slightly related article. Check this link:

http://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=2586

a quote from it::
Following her final deployment, she was decommissioned on November 30, 1970, transferred to the Turkish Navy, and renamed the TCG Muratreis (S-336). Due to their classified nature, little information is available about the Muratreis’s duties while in the Turkish Navy, though it is known that she was involved in the 1974 Turkish invasion of the island of Cyprus.quote

another quote:
The Murat Reis was decommissioned in August 2001. The city of North Little Rock succeeded in buying the submarine for $37,500 in 2004 (with the sale being finalized on March 25, 2005), following the intervention of city officials and submarine veterans groups, specifically the United States Submarine Veterans, Inc. The city of North Little Rock arranged for it to be towed from Turkey at a cost of about $500,000, most of which came from private donations; she arrived at the Port of Little Rock on August 29, 2004.Quote

I find this quite interesting. Normally, we never wonder what happens to all that war parafernalia. I guess a lot of it is sold to third and fourth rank countries.

About the COLE... what group of Muslim Extremist was that? The Osama gang? And why, for G... sake, are they attacking the US? What has caused them to be soo angry at the United States? You have a clue?

About Vietnam... was Canada actually invited to come and fight? I don't know about that... was otherwise occupied. So, you mean the US went to war, because of some "needs" of a member state? 'Honestly, I have wondered WHY the United States fought in Vietnam? One answer I once got was, because they wanted to stop communism! Was that it?

You talk about "three tours". How long would that have been?

I'm just about feeling stark embarrassed to have to ask you,.... what were the dooms-day sayers saying then? All I know is, that the American people were fed up with that quagmire situation and didn't want to sacrifice anymore soldiers. Weren't the conditions there pretty rough for the Americans? And weren't the prisoners being tortured?

You know, I can't stand wars!!! After the Second World War I expected for sure, that the responsible and sensible leaders of the various countries would never allow another war to happen, but look around now!! It's the Americans mainly starting that bloody business all over the world. Wherever there is a conflict you can almost bet on it that the CIA or some American politician is involved.
How do you see that? Is my view off or distorted?

Iraq and Afghanistan.... could the situation there be compared with Vietnam? I've heard such statements.

Norm, it is not just the loss of the young American soldiers, it is also the ten times higher figure of Iraqi lives. On top of that the devastation of their land, their livelihoods and their hopes and dreams. All that for the damn oil? Alberta is producing lots of oil, why not buy it from there. OR, they didn't have to destroy Iraq to get control of the easy oil, they could have negotiated with Saddam and bought it from him!!! Something evil is going on in the minds of the Neo-cons, something called GREED and POWER!!!
Correct me, please... I want to believe in the goodness of each human heart.