Turkey and accession to the European Union

Andem

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Mar 24, 2002
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The point of political hotspots: Thats one of the reasons politicians want to go against the will of Europeans and invite Turkey to join. The wishes of politicians and corporations are purely out of greed for resources and they don't consider the wishes of normal citizens in the EU.

General consensus throughout Europe: Keep Turkey out.


Why are they even still debating this?


edit: ps. You'e gotta love Switzerland's form of democracy. Its open, people are asked, and its shut again.
 

Blackleaf

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Re: RE: Turkey and accession to the European Union

Andem said:
General consensus throughout Europe: Keep Turkey out.


Why are they even still debating this?


.

That's not true. The British and Irish and a few other EU nations who support free trade, democracy, have healthy economies and are outward-looking nations are FOR Turkey joining the EU.

Only those countries who are the exact opposite of all the above things - France, Germany and Old Europe - are against Turkey joining the EU.

The British want Turkey to join the EU and at the same time we ask: "Why on earth would they WANT to?"
 

Blackleaf

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Andem said:
dumpthemonarchy said:
Turkey should let in the European Union, this is a secular age and improving your economy is what it is all about.


Sorry, I'm not willing to change 1000's of years of history and developing culture for economic reasons. As a citizen of the EU and a EU-resident, I'm against anymore change... Turkey can continue to develop trade relations, but nothing more.

The EU's only been going for less than 50 years.

And the Turks consider themselves to be European and they look to the West and not the East. And rememebr that Europa, the goddess who Europe was named after, was Turkish.

For some reason, it's okay for Turkish football teams to compete in European competitions and for Turkey to compete in the European Championships and for Turkey to play in the European section of the World Cup qualifiers and for Turkey to compete in the Eurovision Song Contest (which they hosted a few years ago after they won it), but as soon as they say they want into the Eu most of the EU thent ries to insult people's intelligences by saying that it's not a part of Europe.
 

Blackleaf

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I think not said:
Muslims by far and large have never integrated into European society. This is a consequence of "multicultural" Europe. You're not going to build a United Europe when immigrants are treated as immigrants.

Much of Europe was Muslim BEFORE it ebcame Christian.

Spain is a good example. Not so long ago, Spain was a Muslim country. It's only recently that it became Catholic.

Withing 50-80 years, Europe (except Britain and Ireland) will be Muslim again. France is the closest to being completely Muslim.
 

Blackleaf

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I think not said:
Europe doesn't want Turkey to join the EU for one simple reason, they will add 70 million Muslims into Europe and they don't want that. They don't want it becuase their policies of multiculturalism have created "fractured" enclaves of people within their own borders.

They have to learn how to integrate immigrants into their societies.

70 million Muslims in a SECULAR Muslim nation.

And if the EU was a democracy (and we all know that it isn't) then ANYONE of ANY religion and ANY colour can be a citizen in it, just like Britain and the United States.

Not allowing people to be EU citizens just because they are Muslims shows how undemocratic and racist the EU is.
 

Blackleaf

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Re: RE: Turkey and accession to the European Union

dumpthemonarchy said:
I was a tad hasty in writing that economics is everything, but it is the most these days. 70 million joining the EU is a problem and most Turks are poorer than Poles.

.

So? The Romanians and Bulgarians are poorer than the Poles, and those two nations are joining the EU on January 1st. The GDP per capita of Romania is exactly the same as that of Turkey.

And I don't know if you've realised but Germany, Italy, much of France, Spain and a few other EU nations weren't democracies just a few years before they joined the EU, so Turkey's no different.

In fact, Britain, Ireland, Sweden and only one or two other nations are probably the only EU member states that have been democracies throughout all of the 20th Century.
 

Daz_Hockey

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Nov 21, 2005
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RE: Turkey and accession

indeed, I completely agree Blackleaf, I still think it's mainly Germany, france and Austria who dont want em in.
 

dumpthemonarchy

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There are many Europeans don't want Turkey to join the EU because the EU itself is not entirely open and transparent in its decisions and much of the people in the EU is against "Brussels". The experts in Brussels think they know best and the public rightly resents this.

Business itself is go go go, but the public is not like this.
70 million people in a relatively stable market, biz likes this.

Plus, most Muslims in Europe do not go to the mosque. Equating Arab unthinkingly with Muslim is like calling all Irish and Italians Roman Catholics in Canada or Europe. Not so any more. The main issue is economic and jobs.
 

Blackleaf

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WHY TURKEY MUST JOIN THE EU
--------------------------------

Britain has always been in favour of Turkey joining the EU.



Turkey could be a beacon to the Islamic world: that's why it must be admitted to the EU

Liam Fox, Conservative MP for Woodspring and the shadow defence secretary





'Without Ataturk we would be just like Iran." The words of one young politician I met recently in Ankara reflect the widespread sentiment held by many Turks.

They believe that the foresight of the founding father of the modern Turkish state, Kemal Ataturk, created the conditions that allowed Turkey to develop as a democratic and secular country in stark contrast to some of its neighbours. In the areas of defence co-operation, human rights improvements and economic liberalisation, its development continues apace.

For many Turks, the logical end point to this drive to modernisation has always been membership of the European Union. Yet increasing numbers of Turkish citizens believe that key elements of the EU have no real intention of ever allowing Turkey to gain membership, and they ask themselves: "If we will never get in the club, why go through the pain of transition?" It is a question with enormous ramifications.

Last week, Turkey was back in the headlines with further terrorist crimes being carried out against a number of its tourist resorts. Like so many other countries, it is on the front line in the struggle against global terrorism. Dealing on the one hand with Kurdish separatist terrorists and on the other sharing a large land border with Iraq, it could hardly be otherwise.

How it responds to the challenges it faces politically and militarily has important implications. The questions we must ask in this country are: "How important is further development in Turkey?" And: "Does it matter to Britain?" The answer to both is a resounding "Yes".

Let us just consider the military and geopolitical importance of Turkey in the modern world. A major player in Nato, Turkey's half-million strong army is the second largest in the alliance after America's, dwarfing the forces of Britain and France.

It has twice commanded the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan and plays a large role in the country's redevelopment (recently, in fact, announcing reinforcements there). One of the main reasons for my visit was to encourage the Turkish government to see whether it would be possible to deploy further helicopters to Afghanistan to prevent further overstretch of the British lift capability there.

Politically, Turkey is a bridge to the Islamic world. It shows that prosperity, democracy and security are possible in a constructive partnership with the developed world. If Turkey were part of the EU, it would be its eighth largest economy. Its constitution and educational system ensure women's rights and that they play a full role in the economic and political life of the nation.

There are many in the fundamentalist shadows who believe such rights threaten the power and influence of the clerics and that the emancipation of women is incompatible with their interpretation of Islam. They would like nothing more than to push Turkey into reverse gear.

In terms of energy security, a subject on which I recently wrote for The Sunday Telegraph, Turkey is important for both oil pipelines and maritime transport. In 2001, 6,500 tankers carried 100 million tons of oil through the Bosphorus. By 2005, this had increased to 10,027 tankers carrying 143 million tons. As new oilfields are developed in the central Asian states, Turkey will become an ever more important transit and supply centre for our fuel needs.

A valued Nato partner, a secular state bridging Europe and the Islamic world, a developing economy, and a major player in the energy market: Ataturk would indeed have cause to be proud of his handiwork. But the smooth continuation of these trends is far from secure; it is a challenge to us all to ensure that nothing is done to hinder Turkey's progress. For the direction of the country's development is crucial to the Turks themselves, to those who seek enlightenment in the Islamic world, to the European Union… and beyond.

Those same Islamic extremists who seek to turn the clock back elsewhere — the Taliban in Afghanistan, suicide bombers in Britain — also threaten Turkey's much-cherished secularism. For those who seek freedom, democracy and open society in the Islamic world without ditching any of its religious traditions, Turkey shows that Islam can live compatibly with constitutional law determined by democratic consensus.

For Europe, the admission of Turkey to the EU is the primary test of whether the union can adapt to a changing world or whether it will become an increasingly introspective and redundant body. For European politicians, rejecting Turkey carries the risk of pushing this vitally important country into the arms of the political and religious extremists.

Of course, there would be problems associated with Turkish accession, something most Turks understand. The questions of labour mobility recently brought into sharp focus by imminent Bulgarian and Romanian membership would need to be dealt with.

But there are those who object for different reasons. A senior French official complained to me last year that Turkish membership would mean that "we could never have a political Europe, only an economic one". Stifling a "three cheers to that", I pointed out what a sadly dated view of the world this was. Even more disturbing was the deeply unpleasant undercurrent present during the French and Dutch referendums last year on the EU constitution, where anti-Turkish sentiment was never far from the surface and mixed with constitutional arguments.

What a tragedy it would be if xenophobic elements in continental Europe had the net result of producing a much more fundamentalist Islamic state on the eastern border of Greece rather than a democratic beacon shining outwards from Europe to those denied the basic freedoms and rights we take for granted. What a mistake of truly historic proportions it would be if, by placating all that is negative in European politics, those in authority delivered future generations into a much more dangerous and destabilised continent.

Turkey stands at the new military and political crossroads of the world. With Russia's expanding militarism and resource nationalism threatening Western interests to the north, with the unstable and unpredictable nations of the Caucasus to the east, and with Iraq and the Gulf to the south, most Turks look west, to Europe, for stability and security. It would be both profoundly wrong and monumentally stupid to turn our back at this most dangerous time.

Britain has a proud tradition of championing the Turkish cause, under both Conservative and Labour governments. A staunch Nato ally in the region is certainly in the security interests of this country. But the future of Turkey has much wider implications. Here is a challenge for our generation, a test for our times. The decisions that we collectively reach now will reverberate for years to come and will profoundly affect the world in which we live.

dailymail.co.uk
 

Zzarchov

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I find the concept of "muslims don't integrate" funny. While they tend not to fully integrate as a whole, neither to most groups, at least in Canada.

We still have Irish and Scottish Festivals, People still speak German in Kitchener-Waterloo after hundreds of years (the same as in Pensylvania). Ukrainian communities still exist in Saskatchewan who still speak Ukranian for day to day shopping.

No cultural group will ever fully integrate, Muslims are not special in this respect. But people find it easier to target them lately, its become acceptable where as targetting the Irish or Polish has fallen out of favour.
 

gopher

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The brutally repressive and racist government of Turkey has killed thousands of Kurds. While Bush and his friends felt that invading Iraq was the way to make Saddam stop killing Kurds, Europe's response to Turkey is to allow consideration of future membership in the EU.

Talk about double standards!
 

Zzarchov

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To be fair, The Kurds are still involved in rebelling, I notice the UK, Spain and France were all still in the UN while they were repressing violent Irish and Basque nationalist groups (as well as the people caught in between)
 

hermanntrude

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I don't think religion should be a reason to choose or not choose a country for membership. Religion and government should remain as separate as possible. So on that basis you would expect me to be pro-turkey-joining-up-ish. I am not. I am not anti-it either. The fact is that I don't know enough about Turkey to make the decision, a fact that I think is true of a lot of the people discussing the matter in Europe today. The things I do know are that Turkey is Overwhelmingly Moslem. No problem here. Islam as defined by the Koran actually seems to be as peaceful as Christianity. Moses was also a character and the commandments still apply "Thou shalt not kill" is still an important thing for a Moslem. Stop me if i'm wrong.

The other thing I think I know about Turkey is it is poorer than for instance the UK (like pretty much all the current members of the EU). Now some would say that means that when Turkey joins, they will take more than they give. Probably true... but I dont think I mind that... As I said in a previous post the whole point of the EU is to share and share alike. The sum of the parts of europe will be better off than the separate countries added up would have been. This may mean a step-down for places like the UK but personally I think some of the people in the UK today would become better people if sometimes they had to have a cold shower or couldnt afford to eat lunch for a week or something. Too much luxury is bad for a race.

Having said that... I suppose there must be an economical limit beyond which the EU wont function. And I sure as hell don't want isreal to join unless the name is changed. (this is a hint towards the scandal which is Isreal being in the EUROvision song contest).
 

gopher

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RE: Turkey and accession

`` Kurds are rebelling ``


And what would you do if your language and culture are taken away and your life subjected to repression like Jews in Nazi Germany? Would you stand there and be openly thankful for the repression?

Basques are not being killed by the tens of thousands like Kurds have been in the past couple of decades. That's a big difference, there.

If so many right wingers on this forum were so quick to condemn Saddam for attacking Kurds and Kuwaitis, shouldn't they be just as gung-ho about attacking Turkey?
 

gopher

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Turkey could be a beacon to the Islamic world: that's why it must be admitted to the EU



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

In view of Turkey's racist and Nazi style treatment of Kurds this is one of the most pathetically laughable quotes I have ever seen.
 

Andem

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Turks who come into Europe seem to overwhelming hate the locals.

The idea that EUROvision song contest determines what Europe is is laughable. Any country, INCLUDING Canada, is eligable to participate as long as a national broadcaster is a member of the European Broadcasting Union.

No. Turkey is not part of Europe. Not culturally and not geographically. A mere 3% sliver of land is technically part of the European 'continent'.

In a few years, Turkey would have been the most powerful voting block in the EU due to their mushrooming population. The idea of allowing a Muslim country so much power, a people whom have terrorised Europeans recently, is absurd.

I don't think Turkey will ever be allowed to join the EU anyways.. Not when it's only the countries which have opened the immigration floodgates who agree with it.

By the way, Blackleaf, I wouldn't say France is the only country in Europe about to turn into an Islamic state. The UK allows almost 300,000 immigrants per year of which many are muslim. Netherlands is already past the point of no return.

As I always say: Flyinging into Heathrow feels like I've landed in Islamabad. I'm flying to London on Wednesday, so it will probably be the same or worse than from last time.
 

I think not

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The Greeks would never "OK" Turkey's entry into the EU, there is way too much historical animosity for that to happen. On occassion they project "good relations" but the underlying grudge is there.
 

Andem

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Any country that has a current or historical history with Turkey and Turks will vote no. Germany, Austria, Denmark, Poland (not for current reasons), most of the East and if polled, ethnic Dutch all come to mind.
 

I think not

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The Ottoman Empire is very recent. They had affected much of "lower" and Eastern Europe. Turkey's policies are generally seen as hostile especially were Cyprus is concerned.
 

gopher

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RE: Turkey and accession

The bottom line is, Turkey must NOT be allowed in the EU unless and until it gives a full accounting for its endless crimes against Armenians, Cypriots, and Kurds. Anyone who says otherwise is displaying his ignorance of European and world history.