Triple E Senate - Elected, Effective & Equal

Should Canada move towards an Elected, Effective and Equal Senate?

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  • No / Non

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DasFX

Electoral Member
Dec 6, 2004
859
1
18
Whitby, Ontario
The road to the renewal of the Canadian Empire should start with Senate reform. The current system does not work; it should be abolished and replaced with a new elected Senate with equal representation for each province. How can we have Senators that are appointed for life? There is no accountability since the term in indefinite. Senators often hold more loyalty to the person or party that appointed them rather than the province and people they represent.

This system would be similar to many other countries that have a balance between their two houses of parliament. The House of Commons is where representation should be proportional to population, however the Senate should be a place where provinces have equal say.

Something like 8 senators for each province, and 5 senators for each territory would be good.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: Triple E Senate - Ele

Canada very much needs parliamentary reform, including reform of the senate, but the EEE model is not the way to go.

To see the problems with the EEE model we need only look south. The election of the US senate is hugely expensive, it's equality is brought into question by partisanship and backroom deals, and its effectiveness all to often leads to legislation of any sort failing.

Those three things often lead to to riders being put on unrelated bills in order to get them through. That situation has caused agricultural subsidies to be tacked onto security bills and so on...a situation that has the stench of legislation passing without debate or even fair representation. Attempting to fix our system by adopting a flawed system from elsewhere is no solution at all.

A better idea is to introduce proportional representation into the House of Commons, allowing that house to retain final say over the introduction of laws. The H of C could then vote in an equal number of senators for each province and territory from a list of candidates supplied by each province and territory. Senators would be appointed to 6 or 8 year renewable terms on a rotating basis, so that there would be continuity in the upper house.

Senate powers should be increased, but they should not be increased to the point where they can kill a bill. Sending it back to the H of C to be reconsidered twice should be sufficient. The senate should also be encouraged to submit bills to the H of C for consideration.

This system would give the provincial governments input into who their senators are, doing away with federal patronage appointments. The rotating appointments would mean that there were always experienced people in the Senate and long renewable terms would give the province the opportunity to recall a candidate that they felt wasn't representing them properly.

Since a H of C based on proportional representation would mean that no one party ever had a majority, and the provences and territories had supplied the list of senatorial candidates, they would be chosen more on ability (like a job interview) than on any other basis.

Here's the punch-line though...we can lobby for whatever we want, but the fact is that any major overhaul of the senate requires opening up the constitution, and no government is going to do that any time soon. In order for any sort of meaningful senate reform to take place we first need proportional representation in the House of Commons. Without PR, the issue will simply be moved to the back burner until the next election, with hope that a majority win can turn that burner off completely.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: Triple E Senate - Ele

We are quite a free dominion too, being that our representation by the British Crown is ceremonial and Trudeau repatriatried our constitution. Far better than being a republic, I think....It allows us to avoid the tyranny of religious and business groups to at least some extent and to stay away from the sort of ill-considered mob rule so prevalent in our southern neighbour right now.

To some people though, especially natives, Canada could well seem like an empire. Perhaps that should be carefully considered when discussing parliamentary and/or senate reform.
 

Gundamtidus

New Member
Jan 29, 2005
2
0
1
Canada very much needs parliamentary reform, including reform of the senate, but the EEE model is not the way to go.

To see the problems with the EEE model we need only look south. The election of the US senate is hugely expensive, it's equality is brought into question by partisanship and backroom deals, and its effectiveness all to often leads to legislation of any sort failing.

Those three things often lead to to riders being put on unrelated bills in order to get them through. That situation has caused agricultural subsidies to be tacked onto security bills and so on...a situation that has the stench of legislation passing without debate or even fair representation. Attempting to fix our system by adopting a flawed system from elsewhere is no solution at all.


The best Senate model for Canada would be the Australian Senate :idea: ; it is sort of Triple E, but much better, since it allows both Houses of Parliament to remain very powerful, but it prevents deadlocks (this is why simply appointing Senators who have a democratic base won’t work). This is how their Senate works: First a bill is introduced into one house of Parliament, then if it secedes it is introduced in the other House of Parliament, if it passes in that house the bill becomes law, if not, then the bill is sent back to the House which it originated in. Then the Government has a choice try to pass the bill again with reforms, or ditch the bill. This process can go on for a maximum of three trials. On the third time the two house of parliament disagree the Government can either abandon the bill or hold a double dissolution (both houses face and election). Following the election the Government can try to pass the original bill again, if it fails this time then a Joint Sitting is called (both houses vote together, and the number of Senators is always approximately half the members of the House of Representative, their version of the House of Commons). If it succeeds at the joint sitting it becomes low if not the bill is dead, until another Parliament is summoned. Election is the Senate are follows. Every single election, with the expectation of the Double Dissolution, only half the senators are elected (currently there are 12 Senators per-state and I believe 6 per territory and 6 special seats for the aborigines). They are elected by Single Transferable Vote (the BC proportional representation model). And their is party discipline but it is much weaker than our party discipline so Senators are allowed to vote against their party (not too many times because the electorate asks question about why that member is a member of that particular party, if he/she never agrees with the pary), and the Senators are not independent enough make bargains like they do in the United States. The only problem with Australian senate is that it can veto anything, including the budget, and that led to the Constitutional Crisis of 1970s. So one change I would say we make is that the Senate have a 15 day suspensive veto over the Budget and the Throne Speech, so we don't have any problems.

For our Senate could look something like this, I am using the current numbers to calculate the representation.

14 Senators per Province
8 per Territory
8 for the Aboriginals

Total=172 almost half of the House of Commons

7 senators per province, 4 per territory and 4 aboriginal senators Elected by Single Transferable Vote every three years, fixed term unless a double dissolution is called (just like they do in Australia).

On any matter affecting the Aboriginals we could have a double majority clause in the Senate, this would mean that for any bill to pass that directly affects the aboriginals it would require their consent. Maybe even something similar for the French. This way we can get Quebec on side with the Senate reform proposal. Finaly the Commons should be elected by Mixed Member Proportional Repersenatation, the New Zeland/Germany System.
 

Gundamtidus

New Member
Jan 29, 2005
2
0
1
Canada very much needs parliamentary reform, including reform of the senate, but the EEE model is not the way to go.

To see the problems with the EEE model we need only look south. The election of the US senate is hugely expensive, it's equality is brought into question by partisanship and backroom deals, and its effectiveness all to often leads to legislation of any sort failing.

Those three things often lead to to riders being put on unrelated bills in order to get them through. That situation has caused agricultural subsidies to be tacked onto security bills and so on...a situation that has the stench of legislation passing without debate or even fair representation. Attempting to fix our system by adopting a flawed system from elsewhere is no solution at all.


The best Senate model for Canada would be the Australian Senate :idea: ; it is sort of Triple E, but much better, since it allows both Houses of Parliament to remain very powerful, but it prevents deadlocks (this is why simply appointing Senators who have a democratic base won’t work). This is how their Senate works: First a bill is introduced into one house of Parliament, then if it secedes it is introduced in the other House of Parliament, if it passes in that house the bill becomes law, if not, then the bill is sent back to the House which it originated in. Then the Government has a choice try to pass the bill again with reforms, or ditch the bill. This process can go on for a maximum of three trials. On the third time the two house of parliament disagree the Government can either abandon the bill or hold a double dissolution (both houses face and election). Following the election the Government can try to pass the original bill again, if it fails this time then a Joint Sitting is called (both houses vote together, and the number of Senators is always approximately half the members of the House of Representative, their version of the House of Commons). If it succeeds at the joint sitting it becomes low if not the bill is dead, until another Parliament is summoned. Election is the Senate are follows. Every single election, with the expectation of the Double Dissolution, only half the senators are elected (currently there are 12 Senators per-state and I believe 6 per territory and 6 special seats for the aborigines). They are elected by Single Transferable Vote (the BC proportional representation model). And their is party discipline but it is much weaker than our party discipline so Senators are allowed to vote against their party (not too many times because the electorate asks question about why that member is a member of that particular party, if he/she never agrees with the pary), and the Senators are not independent enough make bargains like they do in the United States. The only problem with Australian senate is that it can veto anything, including the budget, and that led to the Constitutional Crisis of 1970s. So one change I would say we make is that the Senate have a 15 day suspensive veto over the Budget and the Throne Speech, so we don't have any problems.

For our Senate could look something like this, I am using the current numbers to calculate the representation.

14 Senators per Province
8 per Territory
8 for the Aboriginals

Total=172 almost half of the House of Commons

7 senators per province, 4 per territory and 4 aboriginal senators Elected by Single Transferable Vote every three years, fixed term unless a double dissolution is called (just like they do in Australia).

On any matter affecting the Aboriginals we could have a double majority clause in the Senate, this would mean that for any bill to pass that directly affects the aboriginals it would require their consent. Maybe even something similar for the French. This way we can get Quebec on side with the Senate reform proposal. Finaly the Commons should be elected by Mixed Member Proportional Repersenatation, the New Zeland/Germany System.
 

Gundamtidus

New Member
Jan 29, 2005
2
0
1
Canada very much needs parliamentary reform, including reform of the senate, but the EEE model is not the way to go.

To see the problems with the EEE model we need only look south. The election of the US senate is hugely expensive, it's equality is brought into question by partisanship and backroom deals, and its effectiveness all to often leads to legislation of any sort failing.

Those three things often lead to to riders being put on unrelated bills in order to get them through. That situation has caused agricultural subsidies to be tacked onto security bills and so on...a situation that has the stench of legislation passing without debate or even fair representation. Attempting to fix our system by adopting a flawed system from elsewhere is no solution at all.


The best Senate model for Canada would be the Australian Senate :idea: ; it is sort of Triple E, but much better, since it allows both Houses of Parliament to remain very powerful, but it prevents deadlocks (this is why simply appointing Senators who have a democratic base won’t work). This is how their Senate works: First a bill is introduced into one house of Parliament, then if it secedes it is introduced in the other House of Parliament, if it passes in that house the bill becomes law, if not, then the bill is sent back to the House which it originated in. Then the Government has a choice try to pass the bill again with reforms, or ditch the bill. This process can go on for a maximum of three trials. On the third time the two house of parliament disagree the Government can either abandon the bill or hold a double dissolution (both houses face and election). Following the election the Government can try to pass the original bill again, if it fails this time then a Joint Sitting is called (both houses vote together, and the number of Senators is always approximately half the members of the House of Representative, their version of the House of Commons). If it succeeds at the joint sitting it becomes low if not the bill is dead, until another Parliament is summoned. Election is the Senate are follows. Every single election, with the expectation of the Double Dissolution, only half the senators are elected (currently there are 12 Senators per-state and I believe 6 per territory and 6 special seats for the aborigines). They are elected by Single Transferable Vote (the BC proportional representation model). And their is party discipline but it is much weaker than our party discipline so Senators are allowed to vote against their party (not too many times because the electorate asks question about why that member is a member of that particular party, if he/she never agrees with the pary), and the Senators are not independent enough make bargains like they do in the United States. The only problem with Australian senate is that it can veto anything, including the budget, and that led to the Constitutional Crisis of 1970s. So one change I would say we make is that the Senate have a 15 day suspensive veto over the Budget and the Throne Speech, so we don't have any problems.

For our Senate could look something like this, I am using the current numbers to calculate the representation.

14 Senators per Province
8 per Territory
8 for the Aboriginals

Total=172 almost half of the House of Commons

7 senators per province, 4 per territory and 4 aboriginal senators Elected by Single Transferable Vote every three years, fixed term unless a double dissolution is called (just like they do in Australia).

On any matter affecting the Aboriginals we could have a double majority clause in the Senate, this would mean that for any bill to pass that directly affects the aboriginals it would require their consent. Maybe even something similar for the French. This way we can get Quebec on side with the Senate reform proposal. Finaly the Commons should be elected by Mixed Member Proportional Repersenatation, the New Zeland/Germany System.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: Triple E Senate - Ele

Egads, Gundamtidus, it's so crazy that it might just work.

I'm still not big on electing senators, I don't like the cost or the corporate influence that results, but it's a cool idea. Send it to Jack Layton. He's about the only hope we have for PR initaitives right now. Martin is going to be needing him big time in the next few months though, so there is at least a vague hope.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: Triple E Senate - Ele

Egads, Gundamtidus, it's so crazy that it might just work.

I'm still not big on electing senators, I don't like the cost or the corporate influence that results, but it's a cool idea. Send it to Jack Layton. He's about the only hope we have for PR initaitives right now. Martin is going to be needing him big time in the next few months though, so there is at least a vague hope.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: Triple E Senate - Ele

Egads, Gundamtidus, it's so crazy that it might just work.

I'm still not big on electing senators, I don't like the cost or the corporate influence that results, but it's a cool idea. Send it to Jack Layton. He's about the only hope we have for PR initaitives right now. Martin is going to be needing him big time in the next few months though, so there is at least a vague hope.