The Euro or Dollar Debate

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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Let's assume you hate American policy.
That's a laugher in a way, right?

But try to look at the Euro and Dollar debate without bias or paranoia. That's another laugher,right?

But let's present a concept of economics that rules the psychology of self preservation and self enrichment.

We try to do those things that give us the most benefit.

None of the discussions about the Euro or Dollar have emphasized that point, nor have given it the prominence it deserves especially since it rules most economic decisions made by a majority of people on this planet.

Whoever uses the euro on Tuesday might trade it for a dollar and a half on Wednesday if it works to their benefit.

That is what rules, and not political or religious fervor.

Politics and Religion, Liberals and Conservatives are all just a side show carnival act that bears little on a person who has the maturity of mirth to know none of those opinions or religions matter a wit to enrich his own cause.

The really smart ones know this, and they easily get rid of all of the fog that comes from the political enthusiasts on this board.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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RE: The Euro or Dollar De

Yeah, because politics have no bearing on money or economies.

Oh wait...there are trade policy and what your foreign owned debt is trading at. Hmmm...that brings us to oil dollars. There are also trade deficits (as opposed to just the usual credit card spending) which affect your economy which affects the value of your money. If you are a small nation ( or a large nation with a huge amount of foreign-owned debt) your dollar can also suffer greatly because of arbitrary trading.

hang on tight, Jimmy. Your government can't control the economy or the value of your money, but they can smooth out the rough spots and/or screw things up. You picked the wrong team for that little job.
 

Toro

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May 24, 2005
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RE: The Euro or Dollar De

Even in the places where America is not exactly loved, i.e. Cuba, the dollar can be either the defacto currency, run parallel to the official currency or is underground. The mark used to have that function in some parts of the world but the Euro began to fall almost straight out of the gate.

Currencies are at least partly rooted in politics - witness the French vote last week and the fall of the Euro, which dipped to $1.21. But also, I know that there were some massive holders who were dumping dollars in the run-up to the Iraq war. That makes sense because if you are in the middle east, you would want to take your holdings out of the country that is invading the region. Also, when the Saudis came under suspicion for their role in 9/11 in 2002, hundreds of millions of dollars flowed out of Saudi accounts into Europe.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
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Again, that is the fog of ideology that matters little to the businessman making a decision to go Euro or Dollar on a daily basis.

Ideology and politics are a sideshow, and basically a stage prop to be used in the grander play of human desire to do better for one's self and family and friends.

A soldier uses a gun, the poet the word, the ideologist his belief, and everything they see is through the lens of the tool they most use.
 

Toro

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May 24, 2005
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RE: The Euro or Dollar De

Its not so much the fog of ideology as it is the fog of rhetoric. For example, the President of Brazil, Lulu, ran on a fairly left-wing platform but has actually run the country as a moderate, and the real has held up fairly well (last I checked several months ago.) However, if he started saying he was going to begin expropriating assets, then you'd have a flight of capital out of the country putting pressure on the currency.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
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The Euro or Dollar or any other currency are simple commodities to be traded like commodities.

And those who trade currencies and those who invest in other nations are only following the big one rule that everyone here with their ideological bent wants to ignore or de-emphasize for purposes of sustaining their own particular belief system.

The guiding principle is ROI.

Return On Investment.

Everything else is a prop on that grand stage.
 

Toro

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May 24, 2005
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Re: RE: The Euro or Dollar Debate

jimmoyer said:
The Euro or Dollar or any other currency are simple commodities to be traded like commodities.

And those who trade currencies and those who invest in other nations are only following the big one rule that everyone here with their ideological bent wants to ignore or de-emphasize for purposes of sustaining their own particular belief system.

The guiding principle is ROI.

Return On Investment.

Everything else is a prop on that grand stage.

You are absolutely correct.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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Toro said:
I think not said:
Hey, Toro. I would appreciate any input from you regarding this Euro and Dollar thingy with Iraq.

What would you like to know?

If the OPEC started trading in Euro as opposed to dollars would iy have any impact on the US economy. I dont hav emuch of a head for economics.
 

Hard-Luck Henry

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Feb 19, 2005
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I believe it would, ITN. As stated, money is a commodity, so it's value is affected by the demand for it. Ceasing to trade in dollars would mean the dollar's value would decline, making exports cheaper and imports, such as oil, more expensive. It would probably be inflationary. A further consequence is that the trading of oil in dollars has served the interests of the US, giving it an immediate advantage over other countries because it carries no currency exchange risk. For most other oil consumers around the world, the pricing and payment of crude in dollars increases the risk for these countries because of currency fluctuations. When the dollar rises against other currencies, the price of oil is more expensive for the rest of the world, thus potentially increasing inflation in these countries. Trading in euros would mean the US would have to carry that risk.
 

mrmom2

Senate Member
Mar 8, 2005
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It would have a huge impact ITN your economy would collapse under the weight of your debt .Countrys would star calling in there loans and your goverment would have no way to pay it back.Go read the book the Creature of Jekyle Island .Its about your so called Federal Reserve thats really owned by private intrests 8O That book explains a lot of the bankers legalized mafia tactics they use on us .It will piss you right off . It sure did me :wink:
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
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The OPEC countries already trade in the Euro.
They trade in both currencies, the dollar and the Euro.

And since the western world economy is highly interconnected, hurting another country hurts themselves.

So all of this talk of bringing down the US economy is something the world would love but would find out what happens to their own standards of living once the deed is done.

But, it ain't the ideologues calling the shots here.

Thank Allah for that.

Think what would happen to China if they suddenly lost the US market? Or to Japan? Or to Germany?

Even France and Saudi Arabia advertise their product and friendship in this country. Talk about wine sales !!!

Of course the idealogue would not notice that the world's purchasing power would not fill that gap.

Even the hated G8 knows this. Everyone is maneuvering for advantage and leverage and the guiding principle is ROI always, and the vitality of this pays the taxes which pays the entitlement benefits we western democracies demand.

But the psychology of human drive goes way far above the shallow often said statement that people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Nice phrase, evenly pretending towards insight.

Watch how nanotechnology and macro-economics converge, teaching you how simple and little each atom is, comprising a complicated and almost unpredictable whole.
 

Toro

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May 24, 2005
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I think not said:
Toro said:
I think not said:
Hey, Toro. I would appreciate any input from you regarding this Euro and Dollar thingy with Iraq.

What would you like to know?

If the OPEC started trading in Euro as opposed to dollars would iy have any impact on the US economy. I dont hav emuch of a head for economics.

It would have virtually no impact. jimmoyer is correct. Oil contracts may be quoted in dollars, but no matter what the export, there is always a conversion of the local currency into the exchange currency. Thus, if a country is a net exporter of oil, like Canada, if the price of oil should rise in US dollars, the currency of Canada should also rise because there is an increased demand for a Canadian product. In this transaction, the transaction currency is theoretically irrelevant.

Where it is not irrelevant is that the parties to the transaction must believe they are transacting in a currency in which they have confidence. Even though the trade in oil is in US dollars, which means there is an underlying demand for dollars, the effects are marginal because ultimately, what matters is the domicle of transacting parties. Thus if Canada sells oil to Japan, what really matters is the loonie/yen relationship because ultimately, the transaction will be settled in those currencies, even if it is accounted for in US dollars. The yen will be swapped for US dollars, then US dollars will be swapped for Canadian dollars. Thus, yen are being sold and loonies are being bought. In this transaction, dollars play a very minor role. That's why switching the contract currency from dollars to Euros would only have a slight effect on the demand for dollars.
 

Walrus

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Mar 20, 2005
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You have tried to oversimplify a very complex mechanism. Currency trading is more than simply commodity trading. The exchange rates reflect the relative supply and demand for the currencies they represent. That being said they can be manipulated by speculators, but this represents only a fraction of their mechanism.

The $US/Euro debate significance is over whether the Euro will take over the role of the World's reserve currency. Presently about 80% of all the trade transactions in the world are conducted in $US. This means that in order for a country, like Canada, to buy commodities overseas we have to buy $US using $Can and then buy those commodities on the world market. When we sell finished products on the World market we receive $US and then would convert them back to $Can. Now under the rules of supply and demand this would mean that the value $Can vs the $US should be reflected by the value of the trade deficit between our two countries, but since all of trade is done in $US this means that rather than just taking the US/Canada trade into account we have to take the whole World/Canada trade balance into consideration. Since most countries keep a reserve of $US in order to facilitate this world trade that means that there is a huge demand for $US. Conversely , the fact that the US currently runs a huge Trade and Current Accounts deficit means that the supply of $US is also huge. The effects of the supply and demand of $US is reflected not by the $US/Euro comparison but by comparing the $US to all the other currencies. Doing this, you will see the real weakness of the $US.

Now, back to the effect of the Euro replacing the $US as the world's reserve currency. If the same trading market which requires $US to conduct all of its business decided instead to use Euros you would see a huge demand for Euros and a huge lack of demand for $US. You would see everyone getting rid of their reserves of $US and converting to Euros. This would in effect crash the $US and cause hyperinflation in the US - requiring wheelbarrows of money to buy a loaf of bread. At the same time this would cause massive dislocations among those countries with large reserves of $US because those reserves would be worthless. Since it is obvious that it is everybody's interest to prevent this from happening this scenario is very unlikely. What you will most likely see instead is for countires to quietly liquidate their reserves of $US in order to prevent a panic and a slow conversion to another currency as the reserve currency. Since the rejection of the European constitution by France and the Netherlands, the faith that the euro will provide this option has been shaken and thus you see the restored position of the $US. Look at the Asian markets and you will see that the Yen has actually stayed steady.

A careful study of the whole situation will reveal to you that the $US is on very shakey ground. China and Japan have not only stopped buying $US but they, and other Asian nations, have been reducing their reserves of $US. Russia has already decided that all their trades in oil will be conducted in Euros. Cuba, a small player, has decided to end the defacto use of $US in their country. The ripples of change are widening.

One other note to watch is the dispute between the US and China regarding the fixing of the Yuan to the $US. The US Congress is pressing China to revaluate the Yuan because they believe that it is unfairly matched to the $US and is depressing American trade. The interesting part of this is that if China revaluates the Yuan it will mean that the Chinese will lose billions on their $US reserve - effectively writing off the US debt to China (can't see any sane Chinese making that move). In addition to that if the Yuan rises against the $US, this effectively deflates the price of oil for the Chinese and, since their demand is second only to the US, this would probably lead to the oil suppliers raising their prices (in $US) or to a oil shortage in the US since China would use their $US reserve to buy the oil. This would be true for all the other commodities as well and would represent either a huge rise in inflation or a equally strong collapse of the $US versus the main export currencies.

I have only scratched the surface of possibilities. I first began looking at this about a year and a half ago so I am not an expert by any stretch. The exploration of this subject has revealed that it is very complex and is akin to predicting the weather for next month.
 

Toro

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May 24, 2005
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Walrus said:
You have tried to oversimplify a very complex mechanism. Currency trading is more than simply commodity trading. The exchange rates reflect the relative supply and demand for the currencies they represent. That being said they can be manipulated by speculators, but this represents only a fraction of their mechanism.

It was meant to be oversimplified as a person who admitedly didn't know much about economics asked what would happen in OPEC used Euros instead of dollars as the exchange currency. I explained what would happen in this example. Currencies can be manipulated by speculators, but the effects of speculators are overstated, esepcially for currencies in deep liquid markets.

Walrus said:
The $US/Euro debate significance is over whether the Euro will take over the role of the World's reserve currency. Presently about 80% of all the trade transactions in the world are conducted in $US. This means that in order for a country, like Canada, to buy commodities overseas we have to buy $US using $Can and then buy those commodities on the world market. When we sell finished products on the World market we receive $US and then would convert them back to $Can. Now under the rules of supply and demand this would mean that the value $Can vs the $US should be reflected by the value of the trade deficit between our two countries, but since all of trade is done in $US this means that rather than just taking the US/Canada trade into account we have to take the whole World/Canada trade balance into consideration. Since most countries keep a reserve of $US in order to facilitate this world trade that means that there is a huge demand for $US. Conversely , the fact that the US currently runs a huge Trade and Current Accounts deficit means that the supply of $US is also huge. The effects of the supply and demand of $US is reflected not by the $US/Euro comparison but by comparing the $US to all the other currencies. Doing this, you will see the real weakness of the $US.

Currency valuations are also reflective of investment opportunities, and thus capital flows. This is critically important. In theory, what you have written is correct. In practice, it is correct but only to a point. One of the reasons why the US has for many years been able to run a current account deficit and have a rising currency - remember the loonie at 62 cents? - is because investors see the US as, on whole, the best place in the world to invest. So capital flowed prodigiously into the US throughout the 1980s and 1990s. Now the trade and fiscal deficits have grown tremendously, which has been the impetous for the recent weakness in the greenback. so the trade deficit is exerting pressure on the dollar, as you have written and as one would expect. But on the other hand, the trade deficit is being financed with Asian savings, primarily through the central banks of Japan and China. These countries hold large trade surpluses with the US and they've been turning around and re-investing their surpluses back into the dollar which is a source of demand for the dollar. The reason why they do this is essentially mercantilist - they don't want currency appreciation because their economies are based on exports, not consumption, whereas the US ecomomy is based on consumption. Last year, China ran a $125 billion surplus with the US, the highest by any country ever. But if the yuan appreciated signficantly against the dollar, China's growth would almost certainly slow. So the authorities want the merry-go-round to continue. What's a bit scary is that the US deficits are not being financed by private savings but rather central bank buying. Central banks respond to pressures different from private investors, i.e. keeping the currency pegged. Its also interesting that the balance in profit remittances on capital is only a fraction of the size of the trade deficit. You would think with a $600 billion trade deficit, the net interest outflow from the US would be $40-$50 billion, but its not. Its something like $3-4 billion (I can't remember the exact number.) That's because most of the buying of US securities by foreigners recently has been by central banks purchasing US treasury paper yielding little while US foreign investment profit remittances arise from foreign direct investment. However, this arrangement is not tenable in the long run and will probably require and/or trigger a recession to wash things out. Finally, currency are also determined by interest rates. The current 10-year T-bond yields 4%. The Deutsche bunds yield 3.2%. That would contribute to selling Euros and buying dollars - which has been happening the last few months.

Walrus said:
Now, back to the effect of the Euro replacing the $US as the world's reserve currency. If the same trading market which requires $US to conduct all of its business decided instead to use Euros you would see a huge demand for Euros and a huge lack of demand for $US. You would see everyone getting rid of their reserves of $US and converting to Euros. This would in effect crash the $US and cause hyperinflation in the US - requiring wheelbarrows of money to buy a loaf of bread. At the same time this would cause massive dislocations among those countries with large reserves of $US because those reserves would be worthless. Since it is obvious that it is everybody's interest to prevent this from happening this scenario is very unlikely. What you will most likely see instead is for countires to quietly liquidate their reserves of $US in order to prevent a panic and a slow conversion to another currency as the reserve currency. Since the rejection of the European constitution by France and the Netherlands, the faith that the euro will provide this option has been shaken and thus you see the restored position of the $US. Look at the Asian markets and you will see that the Yen has actually stayed steady.

About 65% of the world's reserves are in US dollars while the US economy is about 40% of the world's GDP. The US has been deliberately depreciating its dollar to avoid a deep recession due to the fall-out of the technology bubble collapse. This means that other central banks have been taking a bath on their large US dollar holdings. The central banks should be diversifying their US dollar holdings. The problem is that there are only two other viable alternatives - the yen and the euro. The yen is not seen as a viable alternative because the country has been in a deflationary funk for the last 15 years. Banks want the Euro to work - if for any other reason to have an alternative to the dollar so they don't get soaked like they have been - but the problem is confidence. The Euro is only 15 years old. The terms of the Euro pact are being violated by members of the Eurozone themselves - Germany and France running fiscal deficits above 3%. Europe's social model is a drag on economic growth. Investor's generally want to own faster growing assets. Finally, the defeat of the European constitution at least delays the deepening of the European economies. All of these make it more difficult for the Euro to replace the dollar.

America derives an enormous benefit by having the reserve currency of the world. The demand for its bonds lowers the interest rates the US has to pay on everything. That is why if we suddenly switched from the dollar to the Euro, you wouldn't have hyperinflation. There would be no hyperinflation. Central banks don't actually hold US currency. Well they do, but just a tiny bit. What most own are US government bonds. Dumping dollars means selling US bonds. Selling US bonds means rising US interest rates (because there is an inverse correlation between the value of a bond and its yield). Rising interest rates slows the economy, which sucks currency out of the financial system. Currency coming out of the system is deflationary, not inflationary. The problem in the world right now is that there is too much money floating around. That excess liquidity is causing inflation, not in product prices, but in asset prices, particularly real estate and bonds. Thus the effect of central banks dumping dollars would be a deflationary recession in the US. That's what investors worry about.

Walrus said:
A careful study of the whole situation will reveal to you that the $US is on very shakey ground. China and Japan have not only stopped buying $US but they, and other Asian nations, have been reducing their reserves of $US. Russia has already decided that all their trades in oil will be conducted in Euros. Cuba, a small player, has decided to end the defacto use of $US in their country. The ripples of change are widening.

China and Japan have not stopped buying US dollars. What they have been doing is slowing their purchases. But this is prudent for reasons mentioned above. Cuba halted the inflow of dollars because the dollar economy was growing in Cuba. Castro said the reason why there were doing this was because some Cubans were benefitting more than others and was in violation of the Cuban revolution. This is a remarkably stupid thing to do, unless he's going to allow Euros.

Walrus said:
One other note to watch is the dispute between the US and China regarding the fixing of the Yuan to the $US. The US Congress is pressing China to revaluate the Yuan because they believe that it is unfairly matched to the $US and is depressing American trade. The interesting part of this is that if China revaluates the Yuan it will mean that the Chinese will lose billions on their $US reserve - effectively writing off the US debt to China (can't see any sane Chinese making that move). In addition to that if the Yuan rises against the $US, this effectively deflates the price of oil for the Chinese and, since their demand is second only to the US, this would probably lead to the oil suppliers raising their prices (in $US) or to a oil shortage in the US since China would use their $US reserve to buy the oil. This would be true for all the other commodities as well and would represent either a huge rise in inflation or a equally strong collapse of the $US versus the main export currencies.

I have only scratched the surface of possibilities. I first began looking at this about a year and a half ago so I am not an expert by any stretch. The exploration of this subject has revealed that it is very complex and is akin to predicting the weather for next month.

Eventually the Chinese must revalue their currency. The imbalances in the global economy are partly due to China. China is experiencing rapid asset (real estate) inflation becuase of it and it threatens to derail the Chinese economy. But its delicate and very, very complex.

The US should look at its own economy instead slapping tariffs on the Chinese. The trade deficit is the fault of the US, not anyone else's. Consumers are hooked on low interest rates, which has been driving excess consumption.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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*Head Spins* Thanks for the analysis from both of you. All I ever took in college was economics 101 and that was enough for me.

One thing I have learned and know, economics isn't a science and can only be predictable to a certain point

Back to my original question. Since Walrus appears to be knowledgeable also, will it make a difference to the US economy if Iraq and or other OPEC countries stopped trading in USD?
 

Walrus

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Mar 20, 2005
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My hat off to Toro. As I said in my post I was only scratching the surface but you expanded it wonderfully.

ITN - my own opinion on your question would be that it probably would result in a decline of the $US to the Euro. As far as the other currencies are concerned I don't expect that it would do much since the overall trade in oil would be unchanged. What it could do is cause a rise in the price of oil to the US consumer since the costs of conversion must be figured in. One thing to warn you about is that I could be just as wrong as anyone else - Economics is a science which is largely dependant upon the psychology of the market, predicting how someone is going to react to a given situation is one thing but predicting how a group is going to react is much more difficult. As Toro stated the $US will remain the currency of choice until the level of confidence in it is threatened - when that happens what will ensue is highly unpredictable.
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
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Walrus said:
My hat off to Toro. As I said in my post I was only scratching the surface but you expanded it wonderfully.

ITN - my own opinion on your question would be that it probably would result in a decline of the $US to the Euro. As far as the other currencies are concerned I don't expect that it would do much since the overall trade in oil would be unchanged. What it could do is cause a rise in the price of oil to the US consumer since the costs of conversion must be figured in. One thing to warn you about is that I could be just as wrong as anyone else - Economics is a science which is largely dependant upon the psychology of the market, predicting how someone is going to react to a given situation is one thing but predicting how a group is going to react is much more difficult. As Toro stated the $US will remain the currency of choice until the level of confidence in it is threatened - when that happens what will ensue is highly unpredictable.

Unfortunately, the monetary authorities in the US are doing their best to lay the groundwork to undermine the confidence in the dollar.