Strange Victory: Bush vs. Kerry in presidential debate

Andem

dev
Mar 24, 2002
5,643
128
63
Larnaka
KERRY CAME OUT ON TOP, BUT IT WAS LESS HIS EFFORT THAN BUSH'S INCOMPETENCE... (from canadiandemocraticmovement.ca)
John Chuckman
October 4, 2004

Nothing tells us more about the odd political state of America than the recent presidential debate and reactions to it.

The American debates, of course, are not debates at all. They are more a set of joint press conferences, a staged opportunity for both candidates to repeat memorized lines in a cozy environment, protected by elaborate rules and an always-undemanding moderator. Still, once in a while, something manages to happen.

You cannot look to the prominent members of either major American political party for an honest assessment of how their candidate performed. Despite being regularly trotted out on America's political-discussion programs, these people leave the impression of old Soviet apparatchiks offering spontaneous views on Stalin's latest speech.

If you looked to the mainline press or the small group of people who hold lifetime sinecures on television, you would have concluded the morning after that the debate was a tie, an opinion generated by the same tireless machinery that churns out most of what Americans hear about Iraq. Only the so-called instant polls told you something else, and there was a clue from John McCain, a man desperate to cleanse his conscience of groveling for Bush, who briefly admitted that Kerry had his best night in a long stretch.

If you had read the words of former Vice President Al Gore just before the debate, you might have expected Bush to be a formidable opponent, consistently underestimated. But to credit Gore's judgment required you to ignore the fact that he is the man whose inept campaign in 2000 put Bush into office. Gore does not want to be remembered as the smart man, groomed for decades in politics at the highest level, who let one of the most sniveling and uninformed politicians in American history take the country's highest office, but that is precisely Gore's legacy.

With most of the usual sources of authority discounted, you were left to your own judgment, something with which Americans are not all that comfortable. American television's hazy, synthetic vision of the world, where everything from the best choice of toilet-bowl cleaner to what should be your view of the latest colonial slaughter is appealingly served up to be consumed as directed, makes independent judgment unfamiliar territory.

Still, once in a while, there's no shaking the effect of a stark fact. Any fool could see that Bush is a man who cannot think on his feet, that his responses are those of a toy doll whose same scratchy set of recordings play each time you squeeze him. Winning a debate with a man of his quality would not be an achievement anywhere, except in America. Gore should have landed a string of knock-out punches during the 2000 debates, but he utterly failed to do so. My private guess as to why he didn't is that he thought the audience might judge him harshly for assisting an incompetent to appear incompetent. It reflects the same political sensibility that had the razor-sharp mind of Mrs. Clinton focused on baking cookies. Kerry's wife, an outspoken woman of foreign birth, has only just been asked to make herself a little scarce. She doesn't go down well with the bowling-bag-and-Barbara-Bush set.

Before the debate, Kerry pretty much had followed Gore's script for campaign as light farce. On a few occasions, Kerry indulged an inexplicable taste for the Keystone Cops, making floundering, bizarrely-twisted statements about the war in Iraq. You almost expected to see his eyes crossed while his jaw worked at the words. His audience, not surprisingly, failed to see a Keystone Cop as someone to rescue them from a moron, and the polls marked Kerry down as someone the Political Angel of Death was not going to bypass in November. As for turning instead to a thoughtful, honest man like Ralph Nader, that simply is not on in an America that only buys brands with billion-dollar advertising budgets.

So, Kerry had little to lose in the debate. Still, he offered nothing heroic, nothing startling, only just managing a few pointed comments most of the world takes as common sense, but in politically-asthmatic America even that little wheeze is significant. Judging by Bush's reaction, which (broadcast on split-screen despite a previous understanding not to do so) resembled the movements of one of those old monkey-on-a-stick toys, even these few comments were deeply irritating. It may be that the broadcast of Bush's reactions was more telling than anything Kerry managed to say. Get ready for years of howling cries about a stab in the back from those who await the coming of a new Dr. Goebbels to save them from the sick fantasy of a liberal American press.

The ridiculous circumstance in America that tends to make an incompetent like Bush seem above scrutiny and criticism starts with the very nature of a Constitution making the President both head of state and head of government. Thus, when you criticize a President for doing something stupid, you are seen to be criticizing the symbol of the country itself, and not merely another politician, which is of course what Presidents are, first and foremost. In the case of war - even a totally illegal, bungled, and pointless war like the one in Iraq - you may be regarded as giving aid and comfort to some undefined enemy or as not supporting the "boyz in hawm's way," perhaps the most unforgivable transgression an American politician can commit.

Less-instant polls at this writing indicate the public-opinion impact of Bush's broadcast reactions may be substantial. If so, it is remarkable that it took Americans four years to see what a pathetic lump their President is, but it is equally remarkable that Kerry, who has said little of anything beyond the obvious, will benefit.
 

Andem

dev
Mar 24, 2002
5,643
128
63
Larnaka
Andem said:
KERRY CAME OUT ON TOP, BUT IT WAS LESS HIS EFFORT THAN BUSH'S INCOMPETENCE... (from canadiandemocraticmovement.ca)
John Chuckman
October 4, 2004

Nothing tells us more about the odd political state of America than the recent presidential debate and reactions to it.

The American debates, of course, are not debates at all. They are more a set of joint press conferences, a staged opportunity for both candidates to repeat memorized lines in a cozy environment, protected by elaborate rules and an always-undemanding moderator. Still, once in a while, something manages to happen.

It's funny when you look at it this way. We no longer debate but just recite lines which have been memorized several times over and over.

Moreover, Bush has had a hard time remembering a lot of his lines. Look at some of his speeches and you'll notice he stumbles and says absolutely the stupidist things.

You cannot look to the prominent members of either major American political party for an honest assessment of how their candidate performed. Despite being regularly trotted out on America's political-discussion programs, these people leave the impression of old Soviet apparatchiks offering spontaneous views on Stalin's latest speech.

Well as I've said over and over, the United States is very much heading backwards in their policies and stunts. Ever since the end of the cold war and the fall of the Berlin Wall, Americans have been changing their country into something that is becoming to resemble what the Soviet Union looked like in it's days of reform and before the sudden end to the entire Eastern Bloc and the Soviet Union it's self. *sigh*

If you looked to the mainline press or the small group of people who hold lifetime sinecures on television, you would have concluded the morning after that the debate was a tie, an opinion generated by the same tireless machinery that churns out most of what Americans hear about Iraq. Only the so-called instant polls told you something else, and there was a clue from John McCain, a man desperate to cleanse his conscience of groveling for Bush, who briefly admitted that Kerry had his best night in a long stretch.

Sorry, I thought it was just figured out that this isn't actually a debate. I can only agree with the first statement.

What do you think about when comparing the Canadian leaders debate to this supposed American presidential debate? I think we put on a good show while the US just reiterated points very close to their respective party platforms.

The sad thing is, is that neither candidate are really that suitable to be presidents. On one side we have the worse of two evils, Bush, who has lied and scammed his way to becoming an international criminal and then we have Kerry who changes his stand on every issue to suit the population that's voting for him.

If you had read the words of former Vice President Al Gore just before the debate, you might have expected Bush to be a formidable opponent, consistently underestimated. But to credit Gore's judgment required you to ignore the fact that he is the man whose inept campaign in 2000 put Bush into office. Gore does not want to be remembered as the smart man, groomed for decades in politics at the highest level, who let one of the most sniveling and uninformed politicians in American history take the country's highest office, but that is precisely Gore's legacy.

With most of the usual sources of authority discounted, you were left to your own judgment, something with which Americans are not all that comfortable. American television's hazy, synthetic vision of the world, where everything from the best choice of toilet-bowl cleaner to what should be your view of the latest colonial slaughter is appealingly served up to be consumed as directed, makes independent judgment unfamiliar territory.

I don't think it's fair to blame Gore for the Bush's victory. We should blame the outdated voting systems in the country and Florida's inability to pull off fair elections.

Still, once in a while, there's no shaking the effect of a stark fact. Any fool could see that Bush is a man who cannot think on his feet, that his responses are those of a toy doll whose same scratchy set of recordings play each time you squeeze him. Winning a debate with a man of his quality would not be an achievement anywhere, except in America. Gore should have landed a string of knock-out punches during the 2000 debates, but he utterly failed to do so. My private guess as to why he didn't is that he thought the audience might judge him harshly for assisting an incompetent to appear incompetent. It reflects the same political sensibility that had the razor-sharp mind of Mrs. Clinton focused on baking cookies. Kerry's wife, an outspoken woman of foreign birth, has only just been asked to make herself a little scarce. She doesn't go down well with the bowling-bag-and-Barbara-Bush set.

AMEN!

Before the debate, Kerry pretty much had followed Gore's script for campaign as light farce. On a few occasions, Kerry indulged an inexplicable taste for the Keystone Cops, making floundering, bizarrely-twisted statements about the war in Iraq. You almost expected to see his eyes crossed while his jaw worked at the words. His audience, not surprisingly, failed to see a Keystone Cop as someone to rescue them from a moron, and the polls marked Kerry down as someone the Political Angel of Death was not going to bypass in November. As for turning instead to a thoughtful, honest man like Ralph Nader, that simply is not on in an America that only buys brands with billion-dollar advertising budgets.

So, Kerry had little to lose in the debate. Still, he offered nothing heroic, nothing startling, only just managing a few pointed comments most of the world takes as common sense, but in politically-asthmatic America even that little wheeze is significant. Judging by Bush's reaction, which (broadcast on split-screen despite a previous understanding not to do so) resembled the movements of one of those old monkey-on-a-stick toys, even these few comments were deeply irritating. It may be that the broadcast of Bush's reactions was more telling than anything Kerry managed to say. Get ready for years of howling cries about a stab in the back from those who await the coming of a new Dr. Goebbels to save them from the sick fantasy of a liberal American press.

The ridiculous circumstance in America that tends to make an incompetent like Bush seem above scrutiny and criticism starts with the very nature of a Constitution making the President both head of state and head of government. Thus, when you criticize a President for doing something stupid, you are seen to be criticizing the symbol of the country itself, and not merely another politician, which is of course what Presidents are, first and foremost. In the case of war - even a totally illegal, bungled, and pointless war like the one in Iraq - you may be regarded as giving aid and comfort to some undefined enemy or as not supporting the "boyz in hawm's way," perhaps the most unforgivable transgression an American politician can commit.

Less-instant polls at this writing indicate the public-opinion impact of Bush's broadcast reactions may be substantial. If so, it is remarkable that it took Americans four years to see what a pathetic lump their President is, but it is equally remarkable that Kerry, who has said little of anything beyond the obvious, will benefit.


No need to comment on the last few paragraphs. I think my opinion is pretty much stated :)
 

Haggis McBagpipe

Walks on Forum Water
Jun 11, 2004
5,085
7
38
Victoria, B.C.
One must take into consideration that the American public and media are, in large part, behind the lack of substance projected by politicians. They demand the bland. Think of Dean's primal scream, it went beyond bland and therefore lost Dean the nomination.

True, the demand for bland isn't really the problem in the case of Bush, where his lack of substance results from attempting to function without a brain (much as a chicken runs about momentarily after its head is cut off). Nobody knows how Bush does it, for it is reasonable to think that without a brain he would fall to the ground, dead. Yet however much a scientific marvel he might be, he makes a less than adequate president. He makes an ideal American politician, though, because he never actually says anything.

In the case of Kerry, however, I am far more inclined to think his seeming lack of substance is a matter of surviving the demand for bland. I think if he wins, we will see a different and stronger Kerry.

Americans demand the bland and only want to see the sugarcoated version of anybody seeking high office, and that is why they feel betrayed when the sugarcoating and blandness wears off and voila! a human is found underneath it all.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: Strange Victory: Bush

I can't help but think that if Dean was there instead of Kerry that there would be some real ideas flowing. I'm not sure if Dean could win or not, but I think he would have done a lot more damage to Bush in the debates. He was bringing in a lot of traditional non-voters though...something that's important in a tight race.
 

vista

Electoral Member
Mar 28, 2004
314
0
16
www.newsgateway.ca
The real fire could be tonight. Cheney has a habit of saying too much - that's why they keep him most of the time in his bunker where he runs the show.

Here is something on the lighter side... (remember at Bush's press conferences - he's had the fewest - it is widely believed that he reviews the questions beforehand - it maybe not so spontaneus as we think)

Bush Blows Debate: Talks to Rove in Earpiece!

During the Presidential Debate Bush made what may be his most costly error - he exposed that he’s using an earpiece to help him answer debate questions.

In the middle of an answer bush said, "now let me finish" as if someone was interrupting him - yet nobody did - he was talking to the person in his earpiece. There is an mp3 with the audio at NYC indymedia.

I’ve been thinking for years that we need something major to blow this scam wide open, like Bush exposing himself on national tv. Last night he did just that. The ’let me finish’ quip was clearly bush talking to someone (probably Rove) in his earpiece- saying ’let me finish’ (before you give me the next answer).

He blows it 60 seconds into his 90 second reply- so no warning lights had gone off and the moderator had not motioned for him to end as there was plenty of time left. There is really no other plausible explanation for this huge blunder- who was he telling to ’let him finish’?

http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/125456/index.php
 

Haggis McBagpipe

Walks on Forum Water
Jun 11, 2004
5,085
7
38
Victoria, B.C.
Re: RE: Strange Victory: Bush

Reverend Blair said:
I can't help but think that if Dean was there instead of Kerry that there would be some real ideas flowing.

I think Dean would have been relentless against Bush, and that would have been perceived as bullying in the eyes of the public. He would have failed simply by coming down too hard on the president, which would have done nothing but garner sympathy for Bush in the end.

Kerry was very respectful of Bush even as he lambasted him, and this approach served him well. Given the times, the dynamics and the need to walk a very twitchy tightrope, I do not think anybody could have done a better job than Kerry did that night.

As for getting real ideas flowing, you need at least two thinking people to make that happen, don't you?
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
As for getting real ideas flowing, you need at least two thinking people to make that happen, don't you?

Not necessarly. In the case of politics the second person can be substituted by the media if you can get them to cover it. That makes the question, "Would the mainstream media cover Dean?"

I think they'd have to, though I suspect the coverage would be less than favourable. That would still get the ideas out there though. I have a feeling that no matter who wins we aren't going to see much of a change now or in the long-term. Getting fresh ideas out there could make the difference in the long-term even if Dean lost.
 

Haggis McBagpipe

Walks on Forum Water
Jun 11, 2004
5,085
7
38
Victoria, B.C.
Reverend Blair said:
Getting fresh ideas out there could make the difference in the long-term even if Dean lost.

I'll take a Democratic win over a fresh flow of ideas any day, and I think the simple act of electing someone other than Bush/Republicans/right wing is the first step - the most crucial step - in starting the fresh flow of ideas.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: Strange Victory: Bush

There really isn't that much difference between Bush and Kerry though. The Republicans and Democrats are really just two wings of the same party...the corporate party...and will remain so until some new ideas are put forth and take hold. I think Dean represented a move towards that in a small enough way to be palatable to the American people.

Now that Kerry has won the nomination, I support him. If nothing else he is likely to be less violent than Bush and at least he can speak English and believes in evolution. I can't help but wonder, "What if" though.

BTW, have you ever seen the movie Bulworth? It's worth a watching or two.
 

Haggis McBagpipe

Walks on Forum Water
Jun 11, 2004
5,085
7
38
Victoria, B.C.
There is one critical difference between Kerry and Bush. Kerry is capable of leading because he can think and reason. Bush is controlled by others, he himself does not lead, or think or reason. Kerry would be his own man... much, I think, as Clinton was.

Regardless of the similarities between the parties - of which I wholeheartedly agree exist - the character of the man at the top makes a difference. The president may have far less power than people realize, but the image he projects can be a major change-maker in the mood and dynamics of the public. Clinton wasn't that much different than Bush in policies, yet the difference in leadership was vast.

In the end, though, it could just be that the American people want the simplistic and patriotic Bush as their leader. Reality shows give us an idea of what appeals to Americans now. Bush is a one-man reality show, in a way, and maybe that's why he goes down so well.

Dean demonstrated that he was not, as you would suggest, particularly palatable to the American people. One simple 'primal scream' could not have turned off the public perception so thoroughly had there not been other factors. He was too intense to be palatable. I do feel the media helped to bring him down: nothing is a more effective turn-off than making somebody a joke, and that's what they did, they made him a joke.

Finding the 'best person for the job' is almost an irrelevant point in the end, it has become a matter of finding 'the person able to capture the imagination of a troubled people'. Bush does the latter too well, for reasons unknown and troubling to me. Fortunately, his aura is slipping as he, as stated before, starts to believe his own hype to the point that he is presenting a more honest (and less savoury) self to the public.

I haven't seen Bulworth, I will try to see it soon. Wag the Dog is, for me, the definitive movie about Bush, modern-day US politics and the spin machine.