Soft wood Lumber, yet again.

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
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Re: RE: Soft wood Lumber, yet

gc said:
Yes, the American consumer is the loser, but who's fault is that? The real winner is American lumber companies.

Bingo!

I've been to enough forestry conferences, talked to enough paper and forestry management, and heard enough of their presentations to conclude that the American lumber industry is a bunch of whining, crying, pathetic losers.

Whatever the technicalities of how the tariff is applied and paid for, the group that ultimately pays the tariff is the American consumer. That's Economics 101.

Weyerhauser has operations in Canada. Until recently, they operated a mill in my home town.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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This topic has been a good one. I don't think it's possible to find a news source on the internet who has ever explained the administration of this duty. I don't doubt the corporations paid the tariffs but the way it's reported is a bit of a groupthink mentality and conclusion.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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Re: RE: Soft wood Lumber, yet

Toro said:
I've been to enough forestry conferences, talked to enough paper and forestry management, and heard enough of their presentations to conclude that the American lumber industry is a bunch of whining, crying, pathetic losers.

Whatever the technicalities of how the tariff is applied and paid for, the group that ultimately pays the tariff is the American consumer. That's Economics 101.

Weyerhauser has operations in Canada. Until recently, they operated a mill in my home town.

I gotta ask. I can't see them actually calling a spade a spade for fear of being judged accurate in their assessment. How'd they manage to do all that bitching all these years without using the word "socialism"? :lol:

yep

and of course.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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Sorry BitWhys

I completely missed your bit of Neville Chamberlainese, ""Peace in out time" :lol: "

It was quite appropriate and I was probably the only one that missed it.

Cheers
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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RE: Soft wood Lumber, yet

thanks, I'd bow but I'm pretty sure I stole it from an editorial.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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WTO appeal body reverses lumber ruling

GENEVA (Reuters) - The World Trade Organisation's Appellate Body, reversing an earlier panel report, on Tuesday ruled that the U.S. method for calculating anti-dumping duties on softwood lumber imports violated global free trade rules.

A WTO dispute panel on April 3 rejected a challenge brought by Canada against a U.S. method known as "zeroing" for calculating anti-dumping duties on billions of dollars worth of softwood lumber imports.

But in a 60-page ruling issued on Tuesday, the three judges on the WTO's Appellate Body -- its highest arbitration court -- found that the use of zeroing was inconsistent with the WTO's Anti-Dumping Agreement.

"The Appellate Body recommends that the (WTO) Dispute Settlement Body (DSB) request the United States to bring its measure into conformity with its obligations under the Anti-Dumping Agreement," it said.


Either side has 30 days to ask the Dispute Settlement Body to adopt the ruling, which then becomes final unless there is a consensus against it. The DSB, composed of the WTO's 149 member states, is expected to meet in September.

NAFTA, the ITC and now the WTO again. Strike Three, Dave. See you on Monday. :wink:
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Oh God. We won again.

Too bad whenever we win a rulling by the WTO, the ITC, or NAFTA, it seems to cause the Americans to ignore us again. Last week I read that one of the American lobbyists reckoned that our "free" health care was a form of subsidy. :roll:
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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#1 You do relize who is controlling the job....Big Biz....It has nothing to do with the wong or right, it is the Right-Now...Change it!

Big business, is a lot of what is wrong with things right now. Big business, particularly big oil, is running a big part of both our countries and we have to change that. At the moment, I don't see any politician, on either side of the border I'm very optimistic about.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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"Explore the possibility of appointing special envoys between Canada and the United States to chart a course for the future of NAFTA and achieve a resolution of the softwood lumber dispute in accordance with Canadian and American legal rights and obligations.
...
Demand that the U.S. government play by the rules on softwood lumber. The U.S. must abide by the NAFTA ruling on softwood lumber, repeal the Byrd Amendment, and return the more than $5 billion in illegal softwood lumber tariffs to Canadian producers.
...
Provide real help for Canadian workers and businesses coping with illegal American trade actions. The government of Canada will guarantee repayment of illegally imposed softwood lumber tariffs through Export Development Canada. This will ensure that Canadian forest companies can continue to operate without penalty. We will continue to help pay the legal bills of Canadian businesses that are fighting American softwood lumber tariffs. We will support displaced forestry workers."

hmm

"legal rights and obligations"
"more than 5 billion"
"guarantee repayment"
"continue to help pay the legal bills"

so I count 4 broken promises in there. did I miss any?
 

BitWhys

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Apr 5, 2006
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I think not said:
#juan said:
After all is said and done ITN,

It wasn't Canada who initiated the stupid tariffs in the first place. What did Bush think "free trade" meant? If as you say, Canada comes out ahead on the deal, you can blame your government.

And I am blaming my government. I'm just puzzled as to why Canadians are whining about money that never belonged to them to begin with.

You DID catch that part about Harper promising to demand that the US return the (more than $5B) money to Canadian producers, right?
 

BigBen

New Member
Dec 16, 2005
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Critics of the softwood lumber deal need to give NAFTA a closer reading

NEIL REYNOLDS

E-mail Neil Reynolds | Read Bio | Latest Columns

OTTAWA -- Q: Now that we have a softwood lumber agreement, can you tell me why we let the United States get away with its flagrant violations of the North American free-trade agreement?

A: Which flagrant violations?

Q: Well, I just finished reading yet another column in the media about softwood, once again arguing that NAFTA itself had declared the American duties on our lumber exports to be illegal.

A: Nonsense.

Q: It said this new agreement was a bleak day for free trade.

A: Balderdash.

Q: And a bleak day for the rule of law, too.

A: Hogwash.

Q: It appears you disagree with that contention.

A: With all due respect. In fact, NAFTA doesn't operate courts of any kind. NAFTA panels compare actions against texts and express opinions. They may find that one party to a dispute has done something inconsistent with the free-trade agreement. They don't produce verdicts. They have no such power.

Q: But they should have such power, right? If they did, we would have won this trade war hands down.

A: You can't fault a duck because it doesn't quack in English. NAFTA is a great trade partnership. But you have to accept it for what it is, not what you want it to be in the midst of a particular dispute. Softwood lumber was never part of the free-trade agreement anyway. By mutual agreement, it was legitimately excluded. For our part, Canada excluded cultural industries. For their part, the Americans excluded lumber.

Q: Your point is -- what?

A: What the Americans did during the softwood lumber dispute is precisely what Canada might well do tomorrow in a cultural industries dispute. In that case, we would take advantage of the NAFTA text, too.

Q: I think you're going to tell me something -- whether I want to know it or not.

A: Well, it's important. Under NAFTA rules, when anyone alleges subsidies, the domestic trade law of the importing country automatically applies. So when the American lumber industry alleged Canadian subsidies, it was American trade law that applied. If a group of Canadians had made the same complaint, U.S. trade law would still have applied.

Q: But the NAFTA panels brought down a bunch of decisions that favoured Canada.

A: Yes, they did. But none of them was a verdict. The panels write opinions and send them back to the domestic agency that allegedly erred. In the case of softwood lumber, this was the U.S. Department of Commerce.

Q: But the panels do impose binding decisions, don't they?

A: At the end of a long adjudication process, they can issue a final decision -- which means that they won't change their minds. But final isn't the same thing as binding. Remember that the relevant issue is always the trade law of the importing country. If one law fails the NAFTA test, you can always write another that might not. Let me quote from a succinct legal opinion written by Richard Braudo and Michael Trebilcock, both from the law faculty at the University of Toronto: "Final NAFTA decisions cannot provide permanent solutions because the importing country is free to change its own domestic laws as often as it wants, ad infinitum." In other words, confronted with a final decision, the importing country can amend its laws -- and start the process all over again.

Q: How convenient. You carry this legal opinion in your wallet?

A: I never leave home without it.

Q: Isn't all this proof that the NAFTA panels don't work -- that the whole process is compromised?

A: Not at all. The Canadian government made a fundamental error, years ago, in choosing to wage war rather than to negotiate peace. NAFTA's dispute-settlement process works for everything that's part of free trade. It couldn't work for softwood lumber, which wasn't -- isn't -- a part of it. We tried to engineer de facto free trade in lumber through trade law. Bad mistake. It was obvious from the start that only a negotiated agreement could end the dispute.

Q: And you think this agreement is good for Canada? Why?

A: Aside from paying a billion dollars for our own miscalculations, it's an excellent agreement. It's not free trade but it moves us closer. It confirms the free-trade status of the Maritime provinces. It guarantees us one-third of the U.S. market. And it goes well beyond that, too -- we get free, unrestricted access to the U.S. market whenever lumber prices reach $355 (U.S.) for 1,000 board feet. Prices are below this level now but they have exceeded it often in the past few years. In strong markets, we'll be able to sell the Americans every tree we can cut.

Q: Wow! We would make a real killing then, wouldn't we?

A: Yes, but what kind? Think cod.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060830.RREYNOLDS30/TPStory/TPBusiness/?query=
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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Softwood lumber was excluded from NAFTA? I had no idea.

And the leftist nutbars keep bitching about NAFTA and use softwood lumber as an excuse.

Hahahahaha!
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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logs were excluded from NAFTA, not all the lumber products that are being taxed. the interview is a total straw man but it does serve to prove that NAFTA is a paper tiger that needs renegotiating.

good to hear we won't be breaking any laws if we decide to not honour our agreement to maintain proportional sales of petroleum and petroleum products.

afa legally binding decisions go the DoC and WTO have also both ruled in our favour, the former being the most critical.