Should citizenship rights stop at the border?

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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While I'm opposed to forcing a Canadian from withdrawing his citizenship (while it's fine to make it difficult to obtain citizenship, it ought to be a general principle that once obtained it's permanent), I also think that his citizenship rights should apply only while in Canada. My argument for this is that while abroad he's not paying Canadian taxes anyway so he gets no help in the event of an emergency such as what had happened in Lybia for example. You find your own way back and you regain your rights only once back in Canada.

Any thoughts on this?
 

TenPenny

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Jun 9, 2004
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What is the point of citizenship if, as soon as you are abroad, you lose its benefits?

Lose your passport while you're in the UK, and the Canadian gov't says, 'screw you, reapply for a new one when you get home'.

Makes perfect sense to me.
 

B00Mer

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Canadian Government are not jailers.. they do not control our/your life outside Canada.. we are actually freer than the United States in this respect and as Canadians should be extremely proud of this..

U.S. Citizens are taxed on their worldly income (why so many go to great efforts to hide their offshore income)

Canadians are only taxed on what you earn while you are resident in Canada or have economic ties to Canada.

Canadian's while outside Canada for an extended period can file with Revenue Canada to be tax exempt while residing outside of Canada..

Non-residents of Canada

I have enclosed an copy of my document and removed my name & social insurance for security..



btw, if I lose my passport while abroad, I pay for a new one.. it's not free..

As far as security, as a dual citizen.. I guess the country in which I am living has the responsibility for my safety..?? In this case, the USA.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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What is the point of citizenship if, as soon as you are abroad, you lose its benefits?

Lose your passport while you're in the UK, and the Canadian gov't says, 'screw you, reapply for a new one when you get home'.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Good point. Forgot about that. I was thinking more of getting bailed out of hot spots for example. Why go into a dangerous situation in the first place?
 

Niflmir

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Dec 18, 2006
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While I'm opposed to forcing a Canadian from withdrawing his citizenship (while it's fine to make it difficult to obtain citizenship, it ought to be a general principle that once obtained it's permanent), I also think that his citizenship rights should apply only while in Canada. My argument for this is that while abroad he's not paying Canadian taxes anyway so he gets no help in the event of an emergency such as what had happened in Lybia for example. You find your own way back and you regain your rights only once back in Canada.

Any thoughts on this?

My thoughts are, "Well screw you too!" Just kidding.

In fact you lose the right to vote after 5 years abroad, in a sense. The only way I can vote is if I fly back to Canada during elections and show up at a voting station with mail that proves I have an address in the area.

I don't really have a problem with this other than the fact that it is inconsistent. If 5 years abroad are enough for me to lose my right to vote, than shouldn't a foreign resident of Canada gain the right to vote if they have lived there for 5 years? Especially if the whole idea is because of taxes paid.

The only Canadian tax I pay these days are the repayments on my student loans. Those are taxes in the sense that I wouldn't have needed loans if I had been born in the country that I have chosen to live in. Ironically, the Dutch would allow me to declare bankruptcy to avoid my Canadian student loans but the Canadian government would like to indenture me to them.
 

TenPenny

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As far as security, as a dual citizen.. I guess the country in which I am living has the responsibility for my safety..?? In this case, the USA.

What if you're in another country? One that you're not a citizen of?

PS - I didn't mean to suggest that a replacement passport was free, simply that, if you lose it while outside of the country, as a citizen, you can go to a Canadian Embassy to get a replacement. If our citizenship rights end at the border, you couldn't do that. You'd have to find some way to get back to Canada (without a passport), and obtain a replacement.
 

captain morgan

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What is needed in this discussion is a real definition of exactly what are your rights as a Canadian.

Receipt of consular services is an elemsnt that is generally not denied to any citizen abroad, however, maintaining an expectation that your rights should be a mirror image of what you would expect in Canada is not realistic.
 

Niflmir

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Dec 18, 2006
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What is needed in this discussion is a real definition of exactly what are your rights as a Canadian.

Receipt of consular services is an elemsnt that is generally not denied to any citizen abroad, however, maintaining an expectation that your rights should be a mirror image of what you would expect in Canada is not realistic.

How about voting? That's the one I brought up.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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While I'm opposed to forcing a Canadian from withdrawing his citizenship (while it's fine to make it difficult to obtain citizenship, it ought to be a general principle that once obtained it's permanent), I also think that his citizenship rights should apply only while in Canada. My argument for this is that while abroad he's not paying Canadian taxes anyway so he gets no help in the event of an emergency such as what had happened in Lybia for example. You find your own way back and you regain your rights only once back in Canada.

Any thoughts on this?


What I object to, are the low lifes that take advantage of Canada's subsidized education system, then go abroad to work, not paying taxes to support Canada's social programs, and then come back to Canada in later years to take advantage of those social programs they never helped support.
 

Machjo

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I don't really have a problem with this other than the fact that it is inconsistent. If 5 years abroad are enough for me to lose my right to vote, than shouldn't a foreign resident of Canada gain the right to vote if they have lived there for 5 years? Especially if the whole idea is because of taxes paid.

Agreed. "No taxation without representation", right?

What I object to, are the low lifes that take advantage of Canada's subsidized education system, then go abroad to work, not paying taxes to support Canada's social programs

But then they do pay taxes to support foreign social programmes while foreigners in Canada pay to support Canada's social programmes after having benefitted from subsidized education in their countries. You forgot about little bit, eh? So are you proposing each country ban their people from working abroad, and that anyone who dares think the earth is God's and that man is one should just suck it up when they pay taxes to various governments and then all reject them? Suit yourself.


and then come back to Canada in later years to take advantage of those social programs they never helped support.

Then anyone with any intelligence would simply scrap such programmes to let us do what we want with our money. Pretty radical idea, eh?

And what about the one moving from Ontario to Alberta? Same sentiment?

Canadian Government are not jailers.. they do not control our/your life outside Canada.. we are actually freer than the United States in this respect and as Canadians should be extremely proud of this..

U.S. Citizens are taxed on their worldly income (why so many go to great efforts to hide their offshore income)

Canadians are only taxed on what you earn while you are resident in Canada or have economic ties to Canada.

Canadian's while outside Canada for an extended period can file with Revenue Canada to be tax exempt while residing outside of Canada..

Non-residents of Canada

I have enclosed an copy of my document and removed my name & social insurance for security..



btw, if I lose my passport while abroad, I pay for a new one.. it's not free..

As far as security, as a dual citizen.. I guess the country in which I am living has the responsibility for my safety..?? In this case, the USA.

You do bring up a few good points here: 1. you pay your own passport.
2. you don't pay Canadian taxes as a non-resident.

personally, I'd say voting rights and taxation ought to be based on residency. If you reside in Canada, you pay taxes on all your worldly assets and get the right to vote as long as you reside here. If you live abroad, you pay no taxes to Canada and forfeit your right to vote in Canada.

As for social programmes, make them more flexible either by simply allowing us to deduct taxes from charity or requiring us to save X% of our income for a rainy day, that way even if he lives abroad he gets to keep his own money and forfeits his rights to services from any government.

And of course people like Gerryh shoyuld not be allowed to drive on foreign roads 'cause they didn't pay for them, right?

What I object to, are the low lifes that take advantage of Canada's subsidized education system, then go abroad to work, not paying taxes to support Canada's social programs, and then come back to Canada in later years to take advantage of those social programs they never helped support.

Another question. If a person can't find work in Canada but gets an offer from abroad, do you propose:

1. He stay in Canada and live in poverty on social assistance or go abroad and earn his living? You can't have it both ways. If you way he should fend for himself, then remove barriers and leave him alone. If you say he can't go abroad, then take better care of your unemployed whom you don't want to go out to find work. Decide.
 

Niflmir

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You do bring up a few good points here: 1. you pay your own passport.
2. you don't pay Canadian taxes as a non-resident.

personally, I'd say voting rights and taxation ought to be based on residency. If you reside in Canada, you pay taxes on all your worldly assets and get the right to vote as long as you reside here. If you live abroad, you pay no taxes to Canada and forfeit your right to vote in Canada.

As for social programmes, make them more flexible either by simply allowing us to deduct taxes from charity or requiring us to save X% of our income for a rainy day, that way even if he lives abroad he gets to keep his own money and forfeits his rights to services from any government.

And of course people like Gerryh shoyuld not be allowed to drive on foreign roads 'cause they didn't pay for them, right?

lol, to the point.

Yeah, I think that allowing residents to vote and disallowing emigrants makes some sense. Here in Europe, I am allowed to vote in local elections, but not in national elections. The reasoning goes that the local government directly affects my day to day life, while the national government determines the national identity, of which I am unaffected. I don't necessarily agree with that last part.

Actually, I could apply for Italian citizenship at this point (by right of matrimony), but there is a long process and I am really lazy. In the end it would save me a lot of money, because, as I am finding out, visas to many countries cost more for a Canadian than a European. Also if I go to Saudi Arabia and Israel on business trips, I would need 2 passports anyways.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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But then they do pay taxes to support foreign social programmes while foreigners in Canada pay to support Canada's social programmes after having benefitted from subsidized education in their countries. You forgot about little bit, eh? So are you proposing each country ban their people from working abroad, and that anyone who dares think the earth is God's and that man is one should just suck it up when they pay taxes to various governments and then all reject them? Suit yourself.


Untill we have one world government with collected taxes being used where needed world wide, then one should NOT qualify for ANY social programs that they have not supported. Your analogy is BS. Going down the road you are traveling would mean that the taxes I pay that goes towards Canada's universal medical should mean I should be able to access the same medical services world wide at no cost, the same as I enjoy here..right?



Then anyone with any intelligence would simply scrap such programmes to let us do what we want with our money. Pretty radical idea, eh?

And what about the one moving from Ontario to Alberta? Same sentiment?

Do you put your brain into gear and think about what you write before writing? Didn't think so. You want social programs scrapped so you don't have to pay for them. Then renounce your Canadian citizenship and move somewhere that doesn't have the support.

For the most part, our taxes for social programs all go into the same pot and distributed out. Ontario, Alberta, all part of CANADA. the u.s., Germany, Netherlands, NOT part of CANADA.

And of course people like Gerryh shoyuld not be allowed to drive on foreign roads 'cause they didn't pay for them, right?

When I go to the states, I pay for fuel (road taxes), I support the local economy through the tourism dollars I spend.


Another question. If a person can't find work in Canada but gets an offer from abroad, do you propose:

1. He stay in Canada and live in poverty on social assistance or go abroad and earn his living? You can't have it both ways. If you way he should fend for himself, then remove barriers and leave him alone. If you say he can't go abroad, then take better care of your unemployed whom you don't want to go out to find work. Decide.


Didn't say one can't go abroad to work. I'd say that if a person wants to work abroad then they should be paying taxes into Canada to support programs that they will be taking advantage of when they return. If they don't plan on returning, then renounce citizenship and give ALL rights to reapply at any later date.
 

Machjo

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Might be your job if you're a journalist.

Then make it a requirement for all Canadian media to insure their staff to cover them for emergency evacuations.

Untill we have one world government with collected taxes being used where needed world wide, then one should NOT qualify for ANY social programs that they have not supported. Your analogy is BS. Going down the road you are traveling would mean that the taxes I pay that goes towards Canada's universal medical should mean I should be able to access the same medical services world wide at no cost, the same as I enjoy here..right?

Well, I'm for world federation, so that answers that.


Do you put your brain into gear and think about what you write before writing? Didn't think so. You want social programs scrapped so you don't have to pay for them. Then renounce your Canadian citizenship and move somewhere that doesn't have the support.

I'd like them scrapped so as to calm you down. That way you won't be bitching about this issue anymore.

For the most part, our taxes for social programs all go into the same pot and distributed out. Ontario, Alberta, all part of CANADA. the u.s., Germany, Netherlands, NOT part of CANADA.

Then let's recognize that there is only one god and one human family and start negotiating something fair so as to not lock people into their respective cages... uh, I mean countries.

When I go to the states, I pay for fuel (road taxes), I support the local economy through the tourism dollars I spend.

Didn't say one can't go abroad to work. I'd say that if a person wants to work abroad then they should be paying taxes into Canada to support programs that they will be taking advantage of when they return. If they don't plan on returning, then renounce citizenship and give ALL rights to reapply at any later date.

Then you support that non-citizens workinig in Canada not pay taxes to Canada but instead to their own countries, or are you proposing the government double dip but that those who've paid taxes to two governments can benefit only from one government's services at any time?

By the way, we'rent the apostles "traitors" who travelled to various countries? Well, granted it was one emplire, but still the same idea, no?
 

Niflmir

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Dec 18, 2006
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Untill we have one world government with collected taxes being used where needed world wide, then one should NOT qualify for ANY social programs that they have not supported. Your analogy is BS. Going down the road you are traveling would mean that the taxes I pay that goes towards Canada's universal medical should mean I should be able to access the same medical services world wide at no cost, the same as I enjoy here..right?

It wasn't an analogy actually, it was an example of your suggestion. An example of social programs are the government paving the roads. Since you didn't pay the taxes that paved the roads in the other countries, you shouldn't be able to benefit from their existence, by your argument.

An analogy would be the following: What you are suggesting is kind of like inviting somebody over for dinner but then refusing to feed them because they didn't pay for the food.
 

dumpthemonarchy

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If we made 10 years residence in Canada a requirement before getting citizenship, then many of these problems would disappear. You can't feel Canadian unless you live in Canada. People can spend less than five years in the country and have citzenship forever, it doesn't make sense. Our rules from 50 years don't take into proper account technology like jet travel and the internet. We give citixenship to people who have no commitment to Canada.

But business says we need entrepreneurs to come here with their money. Yet we still send 80% of our exports to the USA and the UK. Exports make jobs and they're not making many.

These immigrant entrepreneurs would often prefer to do business in Asia because they know the culture there but want a safe haven in Canada. I can't find any articles how rich immigrant entrepreneurs benefit Canada much. I read in a business magazine that called Vancouver the Zurich of the Pacific. Not because tons of money are deposted here, but because of the placid political culture.
 

TenPenny

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If we made 10 years residence in Canada a requirement before getting citizenship, then many of these problems would disappear. You can't feel Canadian unless you live in Canada. People can spend less than five years in the country and have citzenship forever, it doesn't make sense.

You're right, my daughters got their citizenships in a year. Imagine. I guess we should outlaw that.

Or, on the other hand, why don't you go fuk yourself.
 

Liberalman

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With our Conservative federal government the Canadian passport in a very important document that gives one all the rights and privileges and protection of this country, for the visible minority that is another story.