Saturn's moon may host an ocean

ShintoMale

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The Cassini spacecraft has found what may be the strongest evidence yet that Saturn’s tiny moon Enceladus has an ocean beneath its icy surface. If the liquid water finding is confirmed, it would suggest that the moon may be one of the most promising places in the solar system to search for signs of past or present extraterrestrial life.

Enceladus is already known to vent geysers of water-ice and vapor that contain complex organic compounds. The new evidence for an underground ocean comes from the detection of sodium in Saturn’s E ring, the extensive band of ice particles believed to be fed and replenished by Enceladus.

Cassini’s cosmic dust detector has recorded sodium in concentrations of about one part in 100,000 within the ring, Sascha Kempf of the Max Planck Institute for Nuclear Physics in Heidelberg, Germany, reported last month at a Cassini project science group meeting in Rome.

Although Kempf and his colleagues were initially concerned that some of the sodium might simply be a contaminant on their instrument’s detectors, his team is now confident that all the measured sodium is from the E ring, Kempf told Science News.

An ocean beneath the surface of Enceladus is the best way to account for the sodium, says Jonathan Lunine of the University of Arizona in Tucson, a Cassini researcher not part of Kempf’s team. Sodium resides in rock, he notes. It has been detected in regions of the solar system where charged particles from the solar wind or radiation bombard rocky surfaces, sputtering off the sodium.

Although Enceladus is mostly rock, the moon’s surface is icy, preventing much sodium from escaping via solar wind or radiation, Lunine says. Instead, the only way sodium can exit Enceladus is for the element to escape from the moon’s interior. And for that to happen, liquid water is required, he asserts.

“A liquid water layer or pocket in contact with the rock, which is deep below Enceladus' surface, will acquire sodium from the rock — essentially leaching the rock,” he says. If the source of Enceladus’ south polar geysers, discovered by Cassini in 2005, is indeed liquid water, then the geysers will transport the dissolved sodium into space. As the geysers reach Enceladus’ frigid surface, the water freezes and some of the sodium remains trapped within the newly formed ice crystals. Like a frozen ocean spray, the geysers spread the salty ice particles into Saturn’s E ring.


Cassini researcher Roger Yelle of the University of Arizona has a different view. "The surface of Enceladus is not pure water ice. We just don't have a good idea of what the other components are," he notes. "There could be a small amount of sodium in the minerals in the surface layer." The sodium detected in the E ring could have come from that material on the moon's surface, rather than from its interior. "I don’t believe that you can say that the detection of sodium [in the E ring] implies that it came from a sub-surface ocean" on Enceladus, Yelle says. "So, let’s not run around crazy-like claiming the likely detection of life because sodium was found in dust particles in the Saturn system.”

Another complicating factor is that studies from Earth, using large telescopes such as the Keck Observatory atop Hawaii’s Mauna Kea, have not found any sign of sodium in the E ring. Nick Schneider of the University of Colorado at Boulder reported the lack of sodium last December in San Francisco during a meeting of the American Geophysical Union.

But such studies, notes Kempf, can only detect sodium in its gaseous form, not the solid sodium in the frozen ice particles. He maintains that the bulk of the sodium in the E ring lies in the solid phase recorded by Cassini’s cosmic dust analyzer.

But depending on which of two competing processes dominates in the E ring, Schneider’s nondetection might still pose a problem, says theorist Andy Ingersoll of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. Over time, he notes, the ice particles in the E ring will exit, pushed out by the pressure exerted by radiation or by collisions between particles. If this happens quickly enough, the solid sodium would never vaporize but would stay embedded in the ice even as it exits. It would be replenished by new material from Enceladus’ plumes.

However, it’s possible that charged particles bombarding ice crystals in the E ring could liberate some of the solid sodium, turning it into vapor, before the crystals have a chance to exit. In that case, Schneider’s team ought to have detected gaseous sodium. “It’s controversial which of these processes wins out,” says Ingersoll.

For now, says Lunine, “one just has to acknowledge that the two observations potentially might be in conflict.” The missing link, he adds, “is whether the sodium in the E-ring particles really came from Enceladus.”

It would be a stronger argument, Lunine says, had Cassini’s ion and neutral mass spectrometer found sodium when it flew through the plumes this past March. The instrument, which looked for sodium only during short intervals of the flyby, did identify an array of organic compounds in the plumes that could support life. The spectrometer will look again for sodium when it flies through the plumes on October 9, says Hunter Waite of the Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio.

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/34109/title/Saturns_moon_may_host_an_ocean
 

eanassir

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The Cassini spacecraft has found what may be the strongest evidence yet that Saturn’s tiny moon Enceladus has an ocean beneath its icy surface. If the liquid water finding is confirmed, it would suggest that the moon may be one of the most promising places in the solar system to search for signs of past or present extraterrestrial life.

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/34109/title/Saturns_moon_may_host_an_ocean

Where there is water, there is life.
See this in the Quran 21: 30
وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَاء كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَيٍّ أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ
The explanation: (And made – of water – every living thing? So would they believe?)

eanassir
http://universeandquran.site.io
 
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#juan

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Enceladus is only 500 km in diameter. It it simply a big, dirty, snowball. There is no reason to think that it may contain liquid water......Any water would either freeze or sublimate. The surface gravity of Enceladus is .0115 G or about a fourteenth of that of our moon. Ocean? I doubt it.
 

ShintoMale

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Where there is water, there is life.
See this in the Quran 21: 30
وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَاء كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَيٍّ أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ
The explanation: (And made – of water – every living thing? So would they believe?)

eanassir
http://universeandquran.site.io



water is not an indication of the presence of life. and the quran is not a scientific book
 

FUBAR

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water is not an indication of the presence of life. and the quran is not a scientific book

Now you've done it, get ready for seven pages of quotes proving how good the koran is for everything.


Those who disbelieve will abide in the fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings. 98:6

:roll::roll:
 

quandary121

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The Deep Sea Vent Theory
The deep sea vent theory for the origin of life on Earth might apply to Enceladus as well. In this scenario, life on Earth began at the interface where chemically rich fluids, heated by tidal or other mechanisms, emerge from below the sea floor. Chemical energy is derived from the reduced gases, such as hydrogen-sulfide and hydrogen coming out from the vent in contact with a suitable oxidant, such as carbon dioxide. Hot spots on an Enceladus sea floor could be locales for this type of process.
We don't know how long it takes for life to start when the ingredients are there and the environment is suitable, but it appears to have happened quickly on Earth. So maybe it was possible that on Enceladus, life started in a "warm little pond" below the icy surface occurring over the last few tens of millions of years.
For life to persist once it has been established requires an environment of liquid water, the essential elements and nutrients, and an energy source. At Enceladus, we have evidence for liquid water, but we don't know its origin. We have observed simple organic chemicals there, and the March 12 close flyby indicates there are some complex organic chemicals, as well. An energy source of some sort is producing geysers. As Cassini's exploration continues, we're seeking to bring together more pieces of this intriguing puzzle. The first step toward answering the question of whether life exists inside the subsurface aquifer of Enceladus is to analyze the organic compounds in the plume. Cassini's March 12 passage through the plume provided some measurements that help us move toward an answer, and preliminary plans call for Cassini to fly through the plume again for more measurements in the future. Ultimately, another mission in the future could conceivably land near the plume or even return plume material to Earth for laboratory analysis.


http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/targetFamily/Saturn?subselect=Target:Enceladus:
 

eanassir

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water is not an indication of the presence of life. and the quran is not a scientific book


Water is essential for any life; no life could be present unless there is water; and the Glorious Quran is more than a scientific book.
 

eanassir

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Now you've done it, get ready for seven pages of quotes proving how good the koran is for everything.


Those who disbelieve will abide in the fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings. 98:6

:roll::roll:


Although this reply has been full of insects; while there has been the flag of the English there; I don't know how such flag of the English reached here; for it is known that the English are cold and quiet; while this insect is hot and active; it may be this will start itching from now on. :angryfire:

The insects are some sort of punishment of the people of Pharaoh (and among the nine miracles of Moses); this is in the Quran 7: 132-133
وَقَالُواْ مَهْمَا تَأْتِنَا بِهِ مِن آيَةٍ لِّتَسْحَرَنَا بِهَا فَمَا نَحْنُ لَكَ بِمُؤْمِنِينَ . فَأَرْسَلْنَا عَلَيْهِمُ الطُّوفَانَ وَالْجَرَادَ وَالْقُمَّلَ وَالضَّفَادِعَ وَالدَّمَ آيَاتٍ مُّفَصَّلاَتٍ فَاسْتَكْبَرُواْ وَكَانُواْ قَوْمًا مُّجْرِمِينَ
The explanation:
(They said [to Moses]: "Whatever miracles you bring about, to work therewith your sorcery, we will never believe in you."

So We let loose on them: the epidemic, the locust, the vermin, the frog and the blood: these miracles being detailed [in the Law], but they reacted arrogantly, and were a guilty people.)
 

Dexter Sinister

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Water is essential for any life; no life could be present unless there is water
All that means is that where there's life (at least life as we know it), there will be water, which is true. The converse is not true: it doesn't mean that where there's water, there will be life. It's a necessary but not a sufficient condition.
 

Lester

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(They said [to Moses]: "Whatever miracles you bring about, to work therewith your sorcery, we will never believe in you."

So We let loose on them: the epidemic, the locust, the vermin, the frog and the blood: these miracles being detailed [in the Law], but they reacted arrogantly, and were a guilty people.)

I do beleive the pyrimids of the Giza Plateau were a govt capital works project- there was no exodus- no slaves to free, no moses to curse pharoahs- The jews just claimed they built it, but it was built by Egyptions. I'm afraid that's just another fable. I couldn't resist:)
 

L Gilbert

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Concerning the Deep Sea Vent "theory", there was a real theory by Gunter Wachttersnauzer (Sp?) called the Iron-sulfur world theory (a real theory), and he propsed that life MAY have originated at hydrothermal vents. That proposal is not a theory, it is a hypothesis (an educated suggestion).
 

eanassir

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No shyte, Sherlock. But presence of water is no guarantee there is life. Also, the quran is definitely more than a scientific book, it is loaded with fiction and just about everything else save science.

Where there is water, there is life, and God created from water every living being.
See my reply on this page July 17th, 2008, 06:16 PM

The Quran stated many things like God brought down iron from the sky, and the dead sea is the lowest part of the earth.

There are no fables; actually the Arab in the past accused the Quran of being some fables of the ancients. But no such fables.
This is in the Quran 16: 24

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُم مَّاذَا أَنزَلَ رَبُّكُمْ قَالُواْ أَسَاطِيرُ الأَوَّلِينَ

The explanation:
(When it is said to them: "What is it that your Lord has sent down?", they say: "[Only] written fables of the ancients.")
And there are many ayat of the Quran with the same expression and meaning.

You do not understand the Quran; and even you haven't read it.
Tell me then how could they built the high parts of the pyramids with such large pieces of bricks! And the answer is in the Quran.


eanassir
 
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eanassir

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I do beleive the pyrimids of the Giza Plateau were a govt capital works project- there was no exodus- no slaves to free, no moses to curse pharoahs- The jews just claimed they built it, but it was built by Egyptions. I'm afraid that's just another fable. I couldn't resist:)


You can keep on saying: I don't believe this and that; it is up to you; but it is an historic event.

The Children of Israel remained about 400 years in Egypt; they came with Joseph their brother in the year 1656 BC, and their exodus from Egypt was at 1218 BC; their number in their exodus was 600 000, but when they came to Egypt of course their number (may be 70 – 300 persons.)

When they came to Egypt; their brother Joseph was a minister, and the deputy of King of the Hexos; so they were dignified and strong; but later on the Pharaohs drove the Hexos out of Egypt, and the Children of Israel were persecuted because they were the allies of the Hexos, and Pharaoh was afraid of their increasing number and influence, so He enslaved them …etc.

Then Pharaoh started to subject them as workers, and used them in the building and other services; but they stayed in Egypt only for less than 400 years, while some of the pyramids are older than this Pharaoh, so it cannot be they built all these pyramids.

This is in the Quran 28: 4
إِنَّ فِرْعَوْنَ عَلَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَجَعَلَ أَهْلَهَا شِيَعًا يَسْتَضْعِفُ طَائِفَةً مِّنْهُمْ يُذَبِّحُ أَبْنَاءهُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيِي نِسَاءهُمْ إِنَّهُ كَانَ مِنَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ
The explanation:
(Now Pharaoh had exalted himself and had divided its people into sects, abasing one party of them [: the Children of Israel], slaughtering their sons, and sparing their women; for he was of the workers of corruption.)


eanassir
http://quranandhebrewbible.t35.com
 

L Gilbert

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Where there is water, there is life, and God created from water every living being.
See my reply on this page July 17th, 2008, 06:16 PM

The Quran stated many things like God brought down iron from the sky, and the dead sea is the lowest part of the earth.

There are no fables; actually the Arab in the past accused the Quran of being some fables of the ancients. But no such fables.
This is in the Quran 16: 24

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُم مَّاذَا أَنزَلَ رَبُّكُمْ قَالُواْ أَسَاطِيرُ الأَوَّلِينَ

The explanation:
(When it is said to them: "What is it that your Lord has sent down?", they say: "[Only] written fables of the ancients.")
And there are many ayat of the Quran with the same expression and meaning.

You do not understand the Quran; and even you haven't read it.
Tell me then how could they built the high parts of the pyramids with such large pieces of bricks! And the answer is in the Quran.


eanassir

How would you know what I have read? Or even if I understood what I've read?

http://www.catchpenny.org/howbuilt.html

http://www.touregypt.net/construction/


BTW, just because your silly book says that where there is water, there is life does not mean it is fact. Just because the Grimm brothers said there was a witch's house in the woods that was made of gingerbread or that there was a dwarf that could spin straw into gold does not make it fact. lmao
 
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eanassir

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How would you know what I have read? Or even if I understood what I've read?

http://www.catchpenny.org/howbuilt.html

http://www.touregypt.net/construction/


BTW, just because your silly book says that where there is water, there is life does not mean it is fact. Just because the Grimm brothers said there was a witch's house in the woods that was made of gingerbread or that there was a dwarf that could spin straw into gold does not make it fact. lmao

The method for building the Pyramids that you mentioned is not logical neither is it practical.
So – as do some claim – they brought the rocks from mountains far from the region, and cut those rocks to the required design then brought all that on ships and in carts dragged by animals and using some sliding means to transport such heavy rocks to some high distances; all this is only some exaggeration and imagination. This can't be.

You said that you read the Quran; but how many men have read the Glorious Quran; and every day there are new marvels and surprises.

The way used in their building was something else; this is in the Quran 28: 38
وَقَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ يَا أَيُّهَا الْمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمْتُ لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَهٍ غَيْرِي فَأَوْقِدْ لِي يَا هَامَانُ عَلَى الطِّينِ فَاجْعَل لِّي صَرْحًا لَّعَلِّي أَطَّلِعُ إِلَى إِلَهِ مُوسَى وَإِنِّي لَأَظُنُّهُ مِنَ الْكَاذِبِينَ
The explanation:
(And Pharaoh said: "O chiefs, I know not that you have any god [in the earth] other than me, so kindle for me [a fire], O Haman, to bake the mud; and construct for me a lofty tower in order that I may survey [the god of heaven:] the god of Moses; and even I believe that [Moses] is a liar.")

In other words, they invented a method of making some substances like the cement, and when baked by the fire, it will turn to be like rocks in hardness.

In other words: they bring the clay, and may add to it the pebbles, and put all that in some moulds then they kindle fire below such moulds and the mixture by the effect of the fire will turn to a structure like the rock in hardness; and the indication of this is that you see their building in layers one above another.
 

eanassir

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Well I researched that and you know what? you may be right. I have never heard of that theory before...http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/dec/30/engineering.humanities


This seems more reasonable; and if you look to the huge statues of the ancient Egyptians like in Abu Simbel or Aqsur, you will see such statues consisting of many layers; so they made some moulds and put some substances there: the clay and baked it in the fire, in some way to make a structure similar to the rocks.

This came to my mind as I read the interpretation of the Quran and in particular this aya 28: 38

وَقَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ يَا أَيُّهَا الْمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمْتُ لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَهٍ غَيْرِي فَأَوْقِدْ لِي يَا هَامَانُ عَلَى الطِّينِ فَاجْعَل لِّي صَرْحًا لَّعَلِّي أَطَّلِعُ إِلَى إِلَهِ مُوسَى وَإِنِّي لَأَظُنُّهُ مِنَ الْكَاذِبِينَ

The explanation:(And Pharaoh said: "O chiefs, I know not that you have any god [in the earth] other than me, so kindle for me [a fire], O Haman, to bake the mud; and construct for me a lofty tower in order that I may survey [the god of heaven:] the god of Moses; and even I believe that [Moses] is a liar.")