Russian Planes Approach Canadian Airspace

Spade

Ace Poster
Nov 18, 2008
12,822
49
48
10
Aether Island
This story is all about math. The F-18s were said to have been scrambled from Cold Lake, Alberta, to intercept the Bear. Cold lake is approximately 2200 km along the great circle (shortest distance) to the point of interception.

The maximum speed of an F-18 is around Mach 1.6. It would not have travelled at that speed all the way. Needs refueling, too. Calculate the time from scramble to interception. Now, tell me if you believe this story!
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
8,583
60
48
United States
First, we have no idea how much warning Canada had to their approach, and tankers could have been involved. That bomber is slow, and was probably picked up as soon as it left Russian airspace. Then again why lie, everyone has been doing it for years.
 

Spade

Ace Poster
Nov 18, 2008
12,822
49
48
10
Aether Island
Well, how much warning was necessary to rendezvous? Who told Canada they were coming and along what flight path? The Russians? Perhaps!
Why lie. Many reasons, mostly domestic.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
210
63
In the bush near Sudbury
That depends. If they come near Canadian airspace, there's not much we can do about it as it's their right to fly in international air sapce. But the second they should trespass into Canadian airspace, we bring it up at the UN General Assembly, expressing our concern, and see where it goes from there. If they continue to insist on violating Canadian airspace, we bring up the possibility of sanctions. After all, Russia has to maintian its reputation too. If Russia trespasses regularly onto Canadian airspace, what message does that send Russia's neighbours. Certainly they would not appreciate such media attention internationally since it would have spin off effects in their relations with neighbouring countries too.

I believe that over time, this could help put an end to such Russian intrusions without needing Canada to stoop equally low. If you trespass on to my property, no, I won't stoop as low by trespassing onto your property; I'll just take the legal route to make sure you don't do it again.

The only flaw in your point is what happens if it happens to be rogue ... just some terrorist out on a one-way test flight?
 

einmensch

Electoral Member
Mar 1, 2008
937
14
18
A point that was made: macho? wanted to hear the Russian Story
Point is :where does one find the Russian story ???
 

Spade

Ace Poster
Nov 18, 2008
12,822
49
48
10
Aether Island
Russia denies plane approached Canadian airspace
Quote:
"However, Russian Defence Ministry spokesman Alexander Drobyshevskiy said Friday the planned flight of the Russian long-range strategic aircraft was part of "regular military training and air patrol plans in the northern latitudes.

"All the international flights regulations were strictly respected," he said in a statement. "Therefore, the very possibility of a violation of Canadian airspace is out of [the] question. The adjacent countries were informed of that flight in good time.""
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
The only flaw in your point is what happens if it happens to be rogue ... just some terrorist out on a one-way test flight?

Of course we should send out aircraft whenever a Russian one gets close. If it doesn't actually enter Canadian airspace, we send it on its merry way. If it does cross Canadian airspace, we give it a warning. If it doesn't respond, second warning with intention to destroy. Still continues along, blow it up.

But even if the aircraft turns back right away, the simple fact that it should have crossed Canadian airspace, even if but for a second and leaving peacefully right afterwards, is enough in my opinion to bring it up to the UN. We should not have to wait for the day that we actually have to destroy a Russian aircraft for us to take action. In this particular case, the aircraft never actually crossed Canadian airspace, and so had every right to be there. But we still should have the right to request that the Russians inform us whenever their aircraft wil fly so closely, along with their purpose. And of course we should return the courtesy if for whatever reason we need to fly our aircraft so near their airspace. But let's face it, why a bomber flying so close? What was its purpose exactly? We should nip this issue in the bud now.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
210
63
In the bush near Sudbury
Compass malfunction and navigational error has always covered a world of shyte in the past. Even if the Russian gave a heads-up, test the fence and scramble are still great exercise.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Russia denies plane approached Canadian airspace
Quote:
"However, Russian Defence Ministry spokesman Alexander Drobyshevskiy said Friday the planned flight of the Russian long-range strategic aircraft was part of "regular military training and air patrol plans in the northern latitudes.

"All the international flights regulations were strictly respected," he said in a statement. "Therefore, the very possibility of a violation of Canadian airspace is out of [the] question. The adjacent countries were informed of that flight in good time.""

Very interesting article. The flight never entered Canadian airspace (even the Canadian side confirmed this), and adjacent countries were informed of that flight in good time (something the previous article fails to mention). By the tone of this article, the Conservatives are just trying to stir up the pot as an excuse for increased military spending coming our way. If that's the case, and if the Russian claims are true, then my sympathies are with the Russian side.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
But seriously, that last article comes across as if the government is just looking for a flimsy excuse to increase military spending. We'll see how this evolves in the coming days. Because from what we're getting from the Russian side, this shouldn't even be a news item.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
To be honest with you... I bet Canada doesn't have long range planes or engages in sending planes to their airspace. I could be wrong so a little help is needed.

Possibly. We'd need more info. I hope we're not doing this ourselves. I'd just hate for Canada being the pot calling the kettle black.


Nope... they were up our butts following us. They worked themselves right into the pattern and sailed along keeping an eye on us.

Sorry, I was joking there. I guess humour doesn't come across as clearly on a computer screen. But then again, let's face it, there is an advantage to that. If you hit a rock, they're right behind you to get you out of the water.
 

Spade

Ace Poster
Nov 18, 2008
12,822
49
48
10
Aether Island
But seriously, that last article comes across as if the government is just looking for a flimsy excuse to increase military spending. We'll see how this evolves in the coming days. Because from what we're getting from the Russian side, this shouldn't even be a news item.

There were a number of things in the original aricle that simply didn't add up. i won't list them all because I could be wrong. But, the most glaring was that we were not informed, yet we scrambled perhaps a couple of hours (?) before the "incident."
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
But I would bet that Canada doesn't send planes towards Russian airspace and just reacts to Russian planes. So what does that tell you?

If Canada only reacts to Russian airplanes nearing Canadian airspace, but doesn't provoke Russia by sending aircraft near Russian airspace without good reason and proper notification, then that would be a reasonable stance.
 

Francis2004

Subjective Poster
Nov 18, 2008
2,846
34
48
Lower Mainland, BC
MacKay told reporters he wasn't accusing Russia of deliberately timing the flight to coincide with the visit — when Canadian security was focused in Ottawa — but he did call it "a strong coincidence, which we met with … CF-18 fighter planes and world-class pilots that know their business."


"[The pilots] sent a strong signal they should back off and stay out of our airspace."


Also


Kucharek said it's possible the Russian plane was taking part in a military exercise.

I can't help but wonder how "strong" the message was from our "pilots" if the Russians did not send additional aircrafts to support this mission.. It's not like this was a War zone and they had something to prove but why would they not wonder why Canada was sending Aircrafts after theirs all of a sudden?

There is something not quite right with this story.. Obviously the Russians didn't seem concerned by our mission as it didn't make their news..
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
There were a number of things in the original aricle that simply didn't add up. i won't list them all because I could be wrong. But, the most glaring was that we were not informed, yet we scrambled perhaps a couple of hours (?) before the "incident."

I tend to give people and governments the benefit of the doubt when it comes to accusations of lying. But the following from the original article concern me:

"Obviously what they were doing was testing Canadian security knowing full well that all of our security attention would be focused in Ottawa around the president's visit," Fife said.

Obviously? Does he have proof? It appears that though I won't question the basic truth that a Russian plane may have been intercepted, it does appear that the government is trying to use it to its political advantage by stirring it up a little. This is a big claim to make, not tomention that it is libel and defamation if untrue. And it certainly doesn't help Russo-Canadian relations, especially if it proves untrue. The government's job is to protect Canada's best interests, and I would interpret that to include maintaining friendly relations with neighbouring countries so as to de-intensify any potential military tensions between our nations, not create them or intensify them as the government seems to be trying to do here.

"For that reason, it puts the emphasis back on the importance of Norad, the importance of our being diligent in defending our airspace, exercising that sovereignty," he said.

And from that, we go to NORAD. Yet he hasn't even proven yet that the Russian plane had any ill intent. Just as we all have a right to our day in court, does Russia not have a right to be heard too before such accusations are laid? I'm not challenging the basic claims of the article, but I am challenging its interpretation by the government. And scarily enough, it is starting to appear like a prelude to Harper's intention to increase government spending. A red flag operation of sorts, but the government was smart enough to choose a real incident and blow it ot of proportion rather than create a fake one from scratch. But the same principles apply.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
I can't help but wonder how "strong" the message was from our "pilots" if the Russians did not send additional aircrafts to support this mission.. It's not like this was a War zone and they had something to prove but why would they not wonder why Canada was sending Aircrafts after theirs all of a sudden?

There is something not quite right with this story.. Obviously the Russians didn't seem concerned by our mission as it didn't make their news..

Well, even the article claims that the Russians have a tradition, at least sinse the end of the Cold War, to abide stringently to international rules, and again even our own government acknowledges this. So ye, I do wonder why this is even a news item in Canada? It would seem to me that someone on the Canadian side is trying to make it an issue out of nothing. If the Canadian government gets loud enough, it might end up in the Russian media too, but as a report of how the Canadian government is trying to stir up an issue out of a Russian aircraft that even the Canadians acknowledge as having been outside Canadian airspace the whle time. Who knows, they might even claim that it's not even a Russo-Canadian issue, but rather political rhetoric to find an excuse for increased Canadian military spending, which would jst make Canada look increasingly militaristic on the international stage. Not an image I'd like Canada to have.