Premiers call for more federal cash, discuss private sector delivery after health care summit

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,743
1,131
113

Well several members here called it - the plan is more money :) Although some talk of new ideas which is nice to see
 

Serryah

Senate Member
Dec 3, 2008
7,117
1,360
113
New Brunswick

Couple things of note.


The doctor said Nova Scotia's current shortage of physicians can be traced back to the 1991 national Barer-Stoddart report, which was commissioned by the federal government. The report said there were too many doctors graduating from medical school in Canada and it recommended reducing enrolment and lowering the ratio of physicians to patients.


"A lot of governments grabbed onto it as an excuse to basically get rid of a lot of doctors, which they did by cutting medical school enrolments, which usually shows its effect about 10 years later," Burden said.


Around the same time the Barer-Stoddart report came out, Nova Scotia froze physician fees, Burden said, which "meant about a 30 per cent cut in pay all of a sudden." That decision led to many of Burden's colleagues leaving the province, he said, adding that some went to the United States and to other provinces.

So I guess the Feds did have a big hand in the doctor shortage at least. Guess we can blame the Cons since Mulroney was PM at the time...? Also, Premiers of the provinces for screwing with doctor pay, or slashing student seats.


Burden doesn't have anyone ready to take over his practice, though not for lack of trying. In 2020, Burden said, he began mentoring a doctor who was working on certifying her international medical training to practise in Nova Scotia. He had hoped to work with her for a year or so before she took over his patients.


"But she is still no closer to getting approval two years later," he said.



Burden said he would like to see the province speed up the process for doctor licensing and certification in Nova Scotia.

Goes back to what I said in the other thread; the process of doctors and other medical people coming from outside of Canada needs to be looked at and re-standardized so people trained can work, not spend years trying to just get the ability to work.
 

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,743
1,131
113
So I guess the Feds did have a big hand in the doctor shortage at least. Guess we can blame the Cons since Mulroney was PM at the time...? Also, Premiers of the provinces for screwing with doctor pay, or slashing student seats.
Well the report was commissioned by the feds under mulroney but as he was pretty much immediately replaced by Chretien any actual gov't policy would have been his :) However - the provinces acted on the report, not the federal gov't. So both would be off the hook for that. The feds aren't at 'fault' for what a report says.

Chretien and Paul Martin DID slash health transfers to the provinces pretty harshly and obviously that didn't help at all, but mulroney did start that trend although not as much. So still no white hats there.
Goes back to what I said in the other thread; the process of doctors and other medical people coming from outside of Canada needs to be looked at and re-standardized so people trained can work, not spend years trying to just get the ability to work.
I think everyone knows that and agrees. But while many politicians talk about it and acknowledge it's true it just doesn't seem to be happening. Nurses and doctors still take a ridiculously long time to get active in canada.
 

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,743
1,131
113
I think there's something that needs to be pointed out that kind of goes unconsidered.

Health care resources are kind of like food in a wild eco system. If there's 100 deer, and only food and resources enough for 90, most people think 10 will starve. But in reality, the 100 consume the resource till they're gone, and they ALL starve in the end. That lack of necessary resources creates a catastrophic failure, because you still get all the deer trying to consume the food they need.

The same thing is happening with our medical systems. When there's not enough medical resources, the system stretches and stretches until suddenly even a relatively small shortage means NOBODY gets the healthcare they need. Or at least a very largely disproportionately sized group doesn't. And that's about where we are at. People are dying in significant numbers because we just don't have enough resources and they've all been consumed by too many people.

At this point we need to recognize that it would actually be better to have enough nurses and doctors even if some of them are only 80 percent as good as 'home grown' ones for now than it is to not have enough to go around.

But while everyone says it's "critical", action just isn't happening on this and we're just about out of resources.
 

Tecumsehsbones

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 18, 2013
50,978
4,298
113
Washington DC
I think there's something that needs to be pointed out that kind of goes unconsidered.

Health care resources are kind of like food in a wild eco system. If there's 100 deer, and only food and resources enough for 90, most people think 10 will starve. But in reality, the 100 consume the resource till they're gone, and they ALL starve in the end. That lack of necessary resources creates a catastrophic failure, because you still get all the deer trying to consume the food they need.

The same thing is happening with our medical systems. When there's not enough medical resources, the system stretches and stretches until suddenly even a relatively small shortage means NOBODY gets the healthcare they need. Or at least a very largely disproportionately sized group doesn't. And that's about where we are at. People are dying in significant numbers because we just don't have enough resources and they've all been consumed by too many people.

At this point we need to recognize that it would actually be better to have enough nurses and doctors even if some of them are only 80 percent as good as 'home grown' ones for now than it is to not have enough to go around.

But while everyone says it's "critical", action just isn't happening on this and we're just about out of resources.
Humans are good at crisis response. Planning, not so much.

You'd think it'd be fairly simple to predict health-care needs, and it is. Not quite 2+2=4 simple, but pretty predictable.

Subsidizing education for critical fields just makes sense. Educator and science-fiction author Jerry Pournelle's been advocating it for at least 40 years. If you really, really want a career (or at least an education) in Art History or Transgender Studies, fine. But the government will pick up a good portion of bill for a medical or engineering education (or training in plumbing, electrical work, carpentry, and HVAC).

Pournelle also claims to have worked with a group that produced an accurate predictor of likely success in various academic disciplines. Buried because it was "racist."
 

pgs

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 29, 2008
25,049
5,708
113
B.C.
I think there's something that needs to be pointed out that kind of goes unconsidered.

Health care resources are kind of like food in a wild eco system. If there's 100 deer, and only food and resources enough for 90, most people think 10 will starve. But in reality, the 100 consume the resource till they're gone, and they ALL starve in the end. That lack of necessary resources creates a catastrophic failure, because you still get all the deer trying to consume the food they need.

The same thing is happening with our medical systems. When there's not enough medical resources, the system stretches and stretches until suddenly even a relatively small shortage means NOBODY gets the healthcare they need. Or at least a very largely disproportionately sized group doesn't. And that's about where we are at. People are dying in significant numbers because we just don't have enough resources and they've all been consumed by too many people.

At this point we need to recognize that it would actually be better to have enough nurses and doctors even if some of them are only 80 percent as good as 'home grown' ones for now than it is to not have enough to go around.

But while everyone says it's "critical", action just isn't happening on this and we're just about out of resources.
Why have standards if we can’t or won’t follow them ?
 

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,743
1,131
113
Subsidizing education for critical fields just makes sense. Educator and science-fiction author Jerry Pournelle's been advocating it for at least 40 years. If you really, really want a career (or at least an education) in Art History or Transgender Studies, fine. But the government will pick up a good portion of bill for a medical or engineering education (or training in plumbing, electrical work, carpentry, and HVAC).
Well the challenge is that politicians pay less time predicting future health care needs and more time predicting the next election results. Health care planning today won't pay off for many years, whereas the costs of it must be borne today and taxes can definitely get you killed in the next election cycle. One of the inherent downsides to democracies is that it's a model that doesnt' really reward long term planning. Gov'ts won't be around to reap the political benefits when they pay off and they are around when the political downsides happen.
 

Serryah

Senate Member
Dec 3, 2008
7,117
1,360
113
New Brunswick
Humans are good at crisis response. Planning, not so much.

You'd think it'd be fairly simple to predict health-care needs, and it is. Not quite 2+2=4 simple, but pretty predictable.

Subsidizing education for critical fields just makes sense. Educator and science-fiction author Jerry Pournelle's been advocating it for at least 40 years. If you really, really want a career (or at least an education) in Art History or Transgender Studies, fine. But the government will pick up a good portion of bill for a medical or engineering education (or training in plumbing, electrical work, carpentry, and HVAC).

Pournelle also claims to have worked with a group that produced an accurate predictor of likely success in various academic disciplines. Buried because it was "racist."

I think it also depends on the individual province in our case.

For example, NB has a lot of 'waste' from having two Regional Health Authorities because one has to be English and one is French. It's like combining the two isn't somehow possible.

And there is a serious issue with staff hiring because not everyone fits the bilingual requirements needed in some areas. Unless you're lucky - like I was - and grandfathered in, currently to do the job I do now, you need a certain level of French (which is problematic in and of itself for various reasons). For myself, I could not switch to any other shift because I don't have the level of French needed.

But not everyone has the level demanded and ironically, even french people have failed to reach the level required in testing.

Throw in the other issues of just overall lack of doctors and nurses, the stress, the pay and retention... it's a clusterfuk here.

The sad thing is no one in NB has faith Higgs will do anything to help because he already has said and proven as much. This meeting is a farce, nothing more.
 

Tecumsehsbones

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 18, 2013
50,978
4,298
113
Washington DC
Well the challenge is that politicians pay less time predicting future health care needs and more time predicting the next election results. Health care planning today won't pay off for many years, whereas the costs of it must be borne today and taxes can definitely get you killed in the next election cycle. One of the inherent downsides to democracies is that it's a model that doesnt' really reward long term planning. Gov'ts won't be around to reap the political benefits when they pay off and they are around when the political downsides happen.
That is indeed a challenge. As I said, humans are bad at planning.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dixie Cup

Serryah

Senate Member
Dec 3, 2008
7,117
1,360
113
New Brunswick
More money... it'd better be a LOT of it.

For my "Area" of NB. This is just HORRID on so many levels...


Patients with non-life-threatening medical needs asked not to come to
The Moncton Hospital and Saint John Regional Hospital
Emergency Departments this weekend



(HORIZON) Friday, Aug. 26, 2022 – Emergency Departments at Horizon’s The Moncton Hospital (TMH) and Saint John Regional Hospital (SJRH) are experiencing critical shortages of nursing staff this weekend, beginning today, Friday, Aug. 26 through and including Sunday, Aug. 28.

During this time, we are asking patients with non-life-threatening medical needs not to come to the TMH or SJRH EDs as we do not have capacity to triage and care for these patients.




This request of these communities is being made to ensure the TMH and SJRH ED teams can continue to provide safe and high-quality care to those who are seriously ill.



TMH is the province’s Level 2 designated trauma centre and SJRH is the province’s Level 1 designated trauma centre. These facilities must reserve their resources to care for the individuals who present with critical medical needs, including those who have experienced serious injuries, heart attacks, strokes and difficulty breathing. We will provide care for individuals with limb- or life-threatening medical needs.



“We recognize the seriousness of this situation and the difficulties it may bring to Moncton and Saint John area residents, as well as to our staff and physicians,” said Margaret Melanson, Horizon’s interim President and CEO. “We are providing on-site support to our staff and physicians who will be providing care to patients with critical injuries or illnesses over the weekend and are thankful for their dedication to their patients.”



Like health authorities across the country, Horizon continues to face immense pressures related to staffing shortages. We continue to look at all options to prioritize the delivery of safe and quality care for patients while creating a safe and quality work environment for our staff and physicians.



We work closely with Vitalité Health Network to ensure emergency services are available for the entire population. These challenges are common to both health authorities and that is why we ask everyone in the Moncton and Saint John areas to help us preserve care for those who need it most and only come to the ED if your health concern is critical.



Patients with non-urgent medical needs should visit sowhywait.ca for other health care options, evisitnb.ca for information about virtual care, or a community hospital ED, such as:

  • Horizon’s Sackville Memorial Hospital (40 minutes, from TMH), open seven days a week, 8 a.m. to 4 p.m.; or
  • Horizon’s Sussex Health Centre (50 minutes from each TMH and SJRH), open 24/7; or
  • Horizon’s St. Joseph’s Hospital Urgent Care Centre in Saint John (10 minutes from SJRH), open seven days a week, 9 a.m. to 9 p.m.; or
  • Horizon’s Charlotte County Hospital in St. Stephen (1 hours and 15 minutes from SJRH), open 24/7.
Both health networks are working diligently to return to normal operations, and we thank the community for their understanding.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ron in Regina

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,743
1,131
113
For my "Area" of NB. This is just HORRID on so many levels...
One of those rare times when we can agree completely. And it would be so even if it were just relegated to your area, but it's pretty much nation wide. Emergency rooms are being shut down, waiting lists are growing, people are dying waiting for care, and it would appear to be getting worse.

We're beyond JUST needing more money.
 

pgs

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 29, 2008
25,049
5,708
113
B.C.
One of those rare times when we can agree completely. And it would be so even if it were just relegated to your area, but it's pretty much nation wide. Emergency rooms are being shut down, waiting lists are growing, people are dying waiting for care, and it would appear to be getting worse.

We're beyond JUST needing more money.
Yup lay off twenty percent of the workforce and there are consequences . Even their unions left them out to dry .
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
102,820
7,835
113
Moccasin Flats
Apparently some nurses need to step up to the plate and take the necessary courses. OTOH, why arent all ED attendees trained in this matter?
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
102,820
7,835
113
Moccasin Flats
Apparently some healthcare services still move quickly.

Long story short Im in a shitty situation regarding a tumor.

Anyhoo, I'm impressed by the timeline.

From discovery to referrals to biopsy to booked surgery...7 weeks and 3 days.

Not bad mid crisis.
 

pgs

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 29, 2008
25,049
5,708
113
B.C.
Apparently some healthcare services still move quickly.

Long story short Im in a shitty situation regarding a tumor.

Anyhoo, I'm impressed by the timeline.

From discovery to referrals to biopsy to booked surgery...7 weeks and 3 days.

Not bad mid crisis.
Good for our system but am sure you would prefer faster .
 

Taxslave2

Electoral Member
Aug 13, 2022
640
312
63
Well the report was commissioned by the feds under mulroney but as he was pretty much immediately replaced by Chretien any actual gov't policy would have been his :) However - the provinces acted on the report, not the federal gov't. So both would be off the hook for that. The feds aren't at 'fault' for what a report says.

Chretien and Paul Martin DID slash health transfers to the provinces pretty harshly and obviously that didn't help at all, but mulroney did start that trend although not as much. So still no white hats there.

I think everyone knows that and agrees. But while many politicians talk about it and acknowledge it's true it just doesn't seem to be happening. Nurses and doctors still take a ridiculously long time to get active in canada.
The old boy's network is alive and well and restricting the certification. One has to belong to the club to work in Canada. Same applies for nurses.
 

Taxslave2

Electoral Member
Aug 13, 2022
640
312
63
I think it also depends on the individual province in our case.

For example, NB has a lot of 'waste' from having two Regional Health Authorities because one has to be English and one is French. It's like combining the two isn't somehow possible.

And there is a serious issue with staff hiring because not everyone fits the bilingual requirements needed in some areas. Unless you're lucky - like I was - and grandfathered in, currently to do the job I do now, you need a certain level of French (which is problematic in and of itself for various reasons). For myself, I could not switch to any other shift because I don't have the level of French needed.

But not everyone has the level demanded and ironically, even french people have failed to reach the level required in testing.

Throw in the other issues of just overall lack of doctors and nurses, the stress, the pay and retention... it's a clusterfuk here.

The sad thing is no one in NB has faith Higgs will do anything to help because he already has said and proven as much. This meeting is a farce, nothing more.
BC has five health authorities, all semi independent, divided by areas but still under the control of the politicians.
And that's where the money goes. Top heavy administration, light on people that actually practice health care.