Pluto no longer a Planet

[#juan]

... I took a deep breath and changed the subject.

Probably a good idea if you want to get along with neighbours and other such casual people in your life, and usually I can do it too with the assorted woo-woos who cross my path, but astrology just makes me see red. It's so lame and impoverished an idea compared to the knowledge of the reality of the cosmos that science gives us, I find it very difficult to be polite about it.

But back to the main theme: I'm not particularly distressed or surprised about Pluto being downgraded. It's always been a little bit odd as a planet: a much more eccentric orbit than any other planet, much more elliptical, sharply inclined to the general plane of the other 8 planets' orbits, much smaller than expected... I think that's essentially the logic behind the downgrading. Since astronomers discovered the Oort Cloud and the Kuiper Belt, it's been clear that Pluto properly belongs in one of those, and has perhaps had its orbit perturbed by the passage of some other massive object into something like a near-planetary orbit. Eh, so it's now a dwarf planet, probably one of thousands out there, and not even the largest one, what does it matter? I think it's a storm in a teacup. There are at least dozens, possibly hundreds or thousands, of fairly large spherical objects orbiting the sun, Pluto's not special in any way. The other 8 planets are: they're much bigger, in nearly circular orbits, and nearly in the same plane, which suggests the processes that formed them were fundamentally different from the processes that created the stuff in the Oort Cloud and the Kuiper Belt, and Pluto. The planets are in the plane of the spiraling disk of gas and dust that formed them and the sun. All other objects are leftovers, and that specifically includes Pluto because of the oddities of its orbit compared to the other 8 planets.

Well, that's my $0.02 worth ...

Dexter

I have to report that the aforementioned neighbor did eventually get a look at, and through my telescope. It just happened to be on a "good seeing" night when both Saturn and Jupiter were available, as well as the moon a bit later. I know he was impressed because whenever I was out in the backyard with the telescope, he would come over to have a look. He eventually bought himself a small telescope that led to a bigger one in a few years. His son, who was a little rug rat when we first met, is now a teenager and he is lobbying his dad to get a larger telescope. I love it.

As far as Pluto is concerned, I admit to a bit of inertia because we started off calling it a planet from the day it was discovered----of course part of that was that generally, we wanted there to be another planet. Pluto was never formally named a planet but when we listed the planets, we always tacked Pluto on the end.
Pluto, as you say, has always been an oddball for all the reasons you mention and the more we learn about Pluto the odder it gets. We discover that is has a moon. Then we discover that Pluto and it's moon Charon, both orbit about a center of gravity that is between the two bodies. We then discover that at least two other bodies orbit Pluto/Charon

I'm not really upset with the decision to reclassify Pluto. I just think they took their damn time doing it. On the other hand, what international scientific body is not a study in inertia and pedantry.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: RE: Pluto no longer a Planet

Dexter, the problem about your argumentation is that it clearly shows you have a limited understanding of what astrology is and how it is used. For a rational person like you, saying "astrology is demonstrably absolute pure bullshit and anybody who believes otherwise is deluded" only shows that you give too much importance to your own conception of the world. The terms you use only reveal your emotional bias to the subject. It's as if you were saying anyone who believes in God is deluded.

Actually, I *do* say that, for essentially the same reason as I dismiss astrology: there's no evidence that supports of claims of either astrologers or believers in god.

The real problem, s_lone, is simply that you are utterly and completely wrong.

 

[s_lone]

There's no evidence of the existence OR the non-existence of God. Your atheism is as much a belief than any other.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Oh don't open that stupid can of worms again. Lack of belief is not a belief. I've dealt with that in another thread and don't propose to rehash it here. In the meantime, read this http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/astrology.html. It explains why you're wrong about astrology, in detail. If you want to debate the subject, I'd suggest you start another thread about astrology; this one's about Pluto's status as a planet.

 

[razorgrade]

are they going to rename the heavy metal Plutonium ?

It was, afterall, like uranium and neptunium, originally named based its order as a planet of the solar system.

 

[jimmoyer]

Great debate betweeb S_lone and Dexter Sinister.

 

[s_lone]

I don't know how accurate this is but it kind of gives an idea of where we stand in this universe... Worth a quick look...

http://www.samtsai.com/p318

 

[#juan]

Good post.

That is impressive.

 

[Kreskin]

Re: RE: Pluto no longer a Planet

I don't know how accurate this is but it kind of gives an idea of where we stand in this universe... Worth a quick look...

http://www.samtsai.com/p318

Makes you wonder if our Sun should qualify as a star. No chance of aliens finding us peons.

 

[s_lone]

Re: RE: Pluto no longer a Planet

I don't know how accurate this is but it kind of gives an idea of where we stand in this universe... Worth a quick look...

http://www.samtsai.com/p318

Makes you wonder if our Sun should qualify as a star. No chance of aliens finding us peons.

Maybe an association of alien astronomers just voted to declare our sun as not being a star... Now that would be funny...

 

[#juan]

Well, they could call it a dwarf star...

Actually, they do call it a dwarf star..

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Read Stephen Baxter's novels. I just finished one of his today, called "Exultant." He's an exceptionally bright and imaginative writer, firmly grounded in science but given to wild extrapolations at the fringes of the physics we understand, that have the ring of probability about them. For instance, according to our understanding of how the Big Bang and subsequent cosmic evolution worked, there's more lithium than there should be in the cosmos, and more of the stars are red dwarfs than we'd expect. Baxter (fictionally) attributes this to the intervention of intelligences of various kinds at various stages of cosmic evolution, and makes it sound entirely credible and possible, even to a hard-nosed old engineer like me who's spent decades trying to understand this stuff. The guy's brilliant. Read his books.

 

[hermanntrude]

RE: Pluto no longer a Pla

is stephen baxter the guy that joined up with arthur c clarke recently to do the sunstorm books?

 

[#juan]

I have read a lot of books over the years, mostly fiction, a lot of science fiction. I haven't yet read anything by Stephen Baxter. I believe he did collaborate with Arthur C. Clarke on a few books but I haven't read them either. Since I retired, I have read a new book about every two days. Thanks for the tip on Baxter. I'm always looking for books to read.

 

[hermanntrude]

RE: Pluto no longer a Pla

i recently read sunstorm and time's eye. both good books