More than politics, this is a national crisis

[Reverend Blair]

RE: More than politics, t

We saw that in the last election too, Mom. This is the man who stopped in Saskatoon to make an announcement and refused to talk about agricultural issues.

Right now Harper is making on his promise not to allow the House of Commons to get any work done. He's working with the separtists, which in not surprising given that one of his MPs was musing about Alberta separating just the other day.

Yesterday they tried to use a motion to committee as a motion of non-confidence, which shows a complete lack of knowledge of our parliamentary rules.

This morning he was making wild accusations about the Liberals hoping that Conservatives with cancer would get too sick to show up for work.

Out of the monkey's in our political system, Stephen Harper is the most petty, mean-spirited bastard of them all. The man is despicable.

 

[Jay]

"Yesterday they tried to use a motion to committee as a motion of non-confidence, which shows a complete lack of knowledge of our parliamentary rules. "

It is a tactic....it proves the House has no confidence in the government. It should be an eye opener.

 

[mrmom2]

I don't know what it is about him but theres something just not right 8O Maybe its those rat like beady eyes or that off into space look in his eyes But something is just not right there :wink: They did something to him at one of the Bilderberg meetings :lol:

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: More than politics, t

Yesterday they tried to use a motion to committee as a motion of non-confidence, which shows a complete lack of knowledge of our parliamentary rules.

This morning he was making wild accusations about the Liberals hoping that Conservatives with cancer would get too sick to show up for work.

Out of the monkey's in our political system, Stephen Harper is the most petty, mean-spirited bastard of them all. The man is despicable.

Actually the reports I have heard and read about the non-confidence vote were split fairly evenlye about whether it was actually that kind of a vote. However, virtually all were in agreement that as the government lost the vote, they had no choice but to either bring an official non-confidence vote or a money bill.

I heard the quotes you are accusing Harper of. Was nothing like that at all, despite what Adler says on his talk show. He went beserk and a lot of the callers agreed with him until he played the audio clip of what Harper actually said, then the calls were virtually all wondering what the fuss was, and why Adler was so upset. What he said was seeing as how all the MPs are in Ottawa now, and as some are sick and may not be able to get back, why not have the vote now. To accuse him of anything else is despicable. Anyway, this may get to be a really interesting forum once the election campaign gets under way, and the sooner the better, lets get this out of the way and move forward with the results, no matter who wins. Like I said on another post, I personally think this is the most critical time this country has seen post-second world war. In a lot of ways, Canada may never be the same after this election, for a lot of reasons, both politically and fiscally.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: More than politics, t

Harper didn't give a rat's ass that Cadman isn't there, or the Liberal with cancer from the east coast. They aren't any more or less likely to be there next Thursday either. They have cancer too.

Martin gave perfectly legitimate reasons for not voting right away...the election in BC and the Queen's impending visit. You are the one always bitching about wasted money, Blue...how about the money that will be wasted on a visit from the Queen that get's cancelled because Harper is to mean to wait for a week like an adult would?

Layton gave a legitimate reason to wait as well...he wants to make damned sure that he gets the deal he was promised.

An election isn't goin to change anything anyway. You still won't have the seats to get your way, no matter who wins, and the rest of us will still have to listen to Alberta whine because you only get one vote per person.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: More than politics, t

Harper didn't give a rat's ass that Cadman isn't there, or the Liberal with cancer from the east coast. They aren't any more or less likely to be there next Thursday either. They have cancer too.

Martin gave perfectly legitimate reasons for not voting right away...the election in BC and the Queen's impending visit. You are the one always bitching about wasted money, Blue...how about the money that will be wasted on a visit from the Queen that get's cancelled because Harper is to mean to wait for a week like an adult would?

Layton gave a legitimate reason to wait as well...he wants to make damned sure that he gets the deal he was promised.

An election isn't goin to change anything anyway. You still won't have the seats to get your way, no matter who wins, and the rest of us will still have to listen to Alberta whine because you only get one vote per person.

The Queens visit will not be cancelled, a radio station here in Alberta contacted Buckingham Palace, and they confirmed the visit was still going ahead, no matter what happens with the government and a potential election. Maybe they think Alberta is more important than Canada, seeing as she is primarily coming for the 100th birthday of Alberta. :wink: 8) Of course Prime Minister Layton wants his deal. Too bad the rest of Canada has to pay for it.

And we will now want some cheese with our whine, thank you very much. American Cheddar would be fine. :wink: :lol:

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: More than politics, t

The Queen cannot come to Canada after an election has been called, Blue. That's the official rules. If the government falls, then the Prime Minister has to go to the Governor General and ask her dissolve parliament. At that point we are officially in an election campaign.

The Queen is coming for the centennial celebrations of both Saskatchewan and Alberta, BTW. Don't make the mistake of thinking that your province is any more important than any other. It isn't.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: More than politics, t

The Queen cannot come to Canada after an election has been called, Blue. That's the official rules. If the government falls, then the Prime Minister has to go to the Governor General and ask her dissolve parliament. At that point we are officially in an election campaign.

The Queen is coming for the centennial celebrations of both Saskatchewan and Alberta, BTW. Don't make the mistake of thinking that your province is any more important than any other. It isn't.

According to The National tonight, the Queen takes her advice from the Prime Minister. She can come during an election campaign unless the Prime Minister requests her to postpone the trip.

And you're right, I apologise to my Saskatchewan neighbors. Like the Rev, sometimes my mind slips too.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: More than politics, t

The rule is still that the Queen is never here during an election because she could influence the outcome. If Martin was to break that rule, the opposition would be all over him for it. Harper is already accusing him of, "Using the Queen as a prop."

 

[bluealberta]

Hmmmm Mulroney was he not responsible fot the GST and NAFTA?That ass cost me a job and a ton of money please can we do that again :x :lol:

And the NEP cost a lot of Albertans their jobs, their houses, their reputations, and in come cases their lives. And if you really looked at the GST, it has been much better than the old hidden manufacturers sales tax which was subject to the whim of every government at every budget, at least. The proof is in the pudding: The rate has not changed since it's inception. Why? Because it is not hidden. NAFTA is another issue that I think has been to the great benefit of Canada, simply because we are too small to be an isolationist, and to not have trade agreements with the biggest trading country in the world seems asinine to me. The vast majority of economists say that NAFTA is not only good, but necessary. I am sure that opponents can find opposite opinons, but if it was so bad, why did the Liberals not tear it up, and why did Smilin Jack from the NDP not insist it be dismantled as part of his agreement to become Prime Minister a couple of weeks ago? NAFTA is here to stay, no one will get rid of it. Adjust, perhaps

 

[bluealberta]

Hmmmm Mulroney was he not responsible fot the GST and NAFTA?That ass cost me a job and a ton of money please can we do that again :x :lol:

And the NEP cost a lot of Albertans their jobs, their houses, their reputations, and in come cases their lives. And if you really looked at the GST, it has been much better than the old hidden manufacturers sales tax which was subject to the whim of every government at every budget, at least. The proof is in the pudding: The rate has not changed since it's inception. Why? Because it is not hidden. NAFTA is another issue that I think has been to the great benefit of Canada, simply because we are too small to be an isolationist, and to not have trade agreements with the biggest trading country in the world seems asinine to me. The vast majority of economists say that NAFTA is not only good, but necessary. I am sure that opponents can find opposite opinons, but if it was so bad, why did the Liberals not tear it up, and why did Smilin Jack from the NDP not insist it be dismantled as part of his agreement to become Prime Minister a couple of weeks ago? NAFTA is here to stay, no one will get rid of it. Adjust, perhaps, get rid of no.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: More than politics, t

The NEP did no such thing, Blue. You weren't being forced to sell below cost, you had a market for your product, you received a whack of federal money for development programs, you received a whack of federal money for pipelines.

What you weren't allowed to do was screw the rest of Canada so Californians could go cruising around their freeways.

NAFTA, on the other hand, has caused a steady degradation of farm gate prices due to the massive subsidies paid in the US. It has killed people. It has driven them into bankruptcy. It has weakened our internal structures, like the Wheat Board.

I know that you don't approve of the Wheatboard, Blue. The fact is that it has ensured the best long-term prices for Canadian farmers since its inception though. That you prefer to look only at a few years is myopic and shows a lack of understanding of both agriculture and business.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: More than politics, t

The NEP did no such thing, Blue. You weren't being forced to sell below cost, you had a market for your product, you received a whack of federal money for development programs, you received a whack of federal money for pipelines.

What you weren't allowed to do was screw the rest of Canada so Californians could go cruising around their freeways.

NAFTA, on the other hand, has caused a steady degradation of farm gate prices due to the massive subsidies paid in the US. It has killed people. It has driven them into bankruptcy. It has weakened our internal structures, like the Wheat Board.

I know that you don't approve of the Wheatboard, Blue. The fact is that it has ensured the best long-term prices for Canadian farmers since its inception though. That you prefer to look only at a few years is myopic and shows a lack of understanding of both agriculture and business.

You were not here during the NEP, so you have no basis for your comments. I was, experienced it directly and indirectly, saw the total stoppage of construction in Calgary, saw businesses fail and go into bankrutcy, saw people lose their jobs and houses. We screwed Canada? Garbage. Ottawa screwed Alberta, plain and simple, and deliberately. Did the ROC get less than market price for their products, say, vehicles manufactured in Ontario? No. Die the ROC pick up the freight charges on either the raw products to their factories, or the finished products being shipped from their factories? No.

The NEP was a direct attack on Alberta and the oil and gas industry, by a Prime Minister who over his term attacked Alberta directly on many occasions (The finger, Why should I sell your wheat, etc). To paint the NEP as something else is just bogus.

My objection to the Wheat Board is that Western Canadian farmers are forced to market their grain through the Wheat Board, while Eastern Canadian Farmers have the choice of the free market system, or the Wheat Board. That is unfair, and discriminatory.

 

[MikVik790]

I keep reading about Paul Martin's honesty and integrity. I am sorry but I can' buy into that. If he did not know what his party was involved in and the money that was flying from hand to hand - he should have. As minister of finance it was his responsibility to dot the (i's) and cross the (t's). When will our government get out of the dark ages and the good old boys mentality and join the 21st century.

I live in Western Canada and I along with the majority of residents in this part of the country do not feel that we have any government representation and, the structure of our voting system insures that we will never have a voice. Maybe, along with Quebec and their pending separation - the prairie provinces along with British Columbia could go off and do their own thing as well. Canada? What an embarrassment. [/quote]

 

[DasFX]

I live in Western Canada and I along with the majority of residents in this part of the country do not feel that we have any government representation and, the structure of our voting system insures that we will never have a voice.

See the following:

LadyC wrote:
You don't get it, do you, B? It doesn't matter how I or anyone else here in the west votes. The winner has been declared before our polls have closed.

I turn on the TV at 8:00 to see my new PM's face smiling back at me.

Our ballot boxes haven't even been opened yet.


You really have to stop whining about this, I mean what do you want the East to do? Should we forget the concept of standard time and the time zones? Should every westerner get 3 votes so that it is the west choosing the PM? I posted this somewhere else, but it applies here again:

Quote:
Next is the whole thing about a federal elections being decided in the east even before Albertans cast their vote. You got two things against you, location and population. Nothing can change the fact that Eastern Canada is 2 hours ahead of you. We can either skew all the voting time so the polls open and close at the same time across the country or we can not release any results until every poll has closed.

As for number of seats, look at this:

Based on Canada 32,078,819 People and 308 seats
Prov. - Pop (2005) - % of Cdn - # of Seats - % Seats - % Diff
NL - 516,986 - 1.61 - 7 - 2.27 - 0.66
PE- 137,734 - 0.43 - 4 - 1.30 - 0.87
NB - 751,257 - 2.34 - 10 - 3.25 - 0.90
NS - 937,538 - 2.92 - 11 - 3.57 - 0.65
PQ - 7,568,640 - 23.59 - 75 - 24.35 - 0.76
ON - 12,449,502 - 38.81 - 106 - 34.42 - (-4.39)
MB - 1,174,645 - 3.66 - 14 - 4.55 - 0.88
SK - 995,280 - 3.10 - 14 - 4.55 - 1.44
AB - 3,223,415 - 10.05 - 28 - 9.09 - (-0.96)
BC - 4,219,968 - 13.15 - 36 - 11.69 - (-1.47)
YK - 31,227 - 0.10 - 1 - 0.32 - 0.23
NT - 42,944 - 0.13 - 1 - 0.32 - 0.19
NU - 29,683 - 0.09 - 1 - 0.32 - 0.23

So you can see that the Maritimes collectively only have 3.08% more representation than their population warrants. Any extra seats in the Maritimes is really coming out of Ontario's pocket so to speak. If Alberta really wants its extra say, they should look no further than Manitoba and for British Columbians, their missing representation is in Saskatchewan. So the west is really a wash. If anyone gets slightly more, it is the North, but they have to have atleast one seat each. But again, this comes out of Ontario's pocket.

If you really wanted to redistrubute seats along population proportions, then this is what would happen based on 308 seats.

NL - 5, PE - 1, NB - 7, NS- 9 (Atlantic = 22 seats)
Ontario = 119 seats
Quebec = 73 seats
MB - 11, SK - 10, AB - 31, BC - 41 (West = 93 seats)
North = 1 seat

So what would this accomplish? The west would have 1 extra seat, the North would share 1 seat collectively, Atlantic Canada would lose 10 seats, Quebec would lose 2 seats and lo and behold Ontario would pick up an extra 13 seats.

Looks like that would shift the balance of power further into Ontario's hands.

So the moral of the story is if you want more say, get more people! Until that happens, stop complaining about seat distribution, if any one is getting the shaft, it is Ontario!


Again, you want more seats and more power, then you have to get more people.

I understand your frustration, but it isn't something only you in the West of Canada go through. In Australia, the state of Western Australia makes up about a third of the country in size and is 2 hours behind their east coast. The population of WA is about 10% of the total population (20 Million), whereas the rest is concentrated along its East Coast in New South Wales, Victoria and Queensland. When they have an election, there is the PM smiling back at them before their votes are counted. Do they like it? Probably not, but unless they get more folk, there is nothing they can do.

 

[mrmom2]

I think the point was people out here are sick of the Federal gov and they feel they don't have a say .At the rate of the scandals coming out of Ottawa and the feelings out here it if something doesn't change soon the seperatist's drum will start beating out here right or wrong Das

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: More than politics, this is a national crisis

I think the point was people out here are sick of the Federal gov and they feel they don't have a say .At the rate of the scandals coming out of Ottawa and the feelings out here it if something doesn't change soon the seperatist's drum will start beating out here right or wrong Das

You are right, Mom. I have said on many posts that the rumblings of western separation are getting louder by the day. Right or wrong, this is something that should not be ignored by the ROC. If the Liberanos get reelected, the rumbling may just turn into a full fledged roar. I prefer to reconfigure how the country is operated instead of separtism, but failing that, all options have to be looked at. To be part of a group without being able to have any influence within the group defeats the reason a group is formed. Canada is simply a group of provinces/regions and all need to have some say and influence. That is what I hope for, but fear the other if things do not start to change.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: More than politics, this is a national crisis

I think the point was people out here are sick of the Federal gov and they feel they don't have a say .At the rate of the scandals coming out of Ottawa and the feelings out here it if something doesn't change soon the seperatist's drum will start beating out here right or wrong Das

Well they do have a say, not as much as the Central region though. As for the other stuff, I don't think those feelings are exclusive to the west.

 

[mrmom2]

Sorry Das I was just trying to point out the vast majority of people out here have no clue about the way Fed politics work.All they hear is scandal and corruption,and it gives them more of a reason to beat those drums in their own minds :wink:

 

[DasFX]

Sorry Das I was just trying to point out the vast majority of people out here have no clue about the way Fed politics work.All they hear is scandal and corruption,and it gives them more of a reason to beat those drums in their own minds :wink:

I'm not saying we here in Ontario know how the Federal government works. There is no way to know that cause it doesn't work. I was watching the vote (of non confidence?) on Tuesday and it was a joke. I just don't get how we teach society that one should wait one's turn and not interupt and speak when someone else is speaking, yet our national parliament advocates the opposite. No wonder nothing gets done, nobody ever hears what the other is saying.