Life begins...

[tracy]

Re: RE: Life begins...

About one third of all zygotes don't result in a pregnancy because they don't implant properly and the women wouldn't even know it happened. I can't imagine calling that a life.

"Not implanting properly" is just one of the risks. Remember, it started with about a quarter of a million sperm, and all but one of them is dead by this time. The properly implanted zygote is a living, growing, little human. It can't be anything else.

Then a human doesn't begin at conception, it begins at implantation? By that standard, drugs like Plan B are not abortifacients like many pro-life groups claim.

I think this notion is as arbitrary as any other. Why does implantation make it a human? The zygote itself is unchanged.

I didn't mean to imply that implantation was anything but another step on the journey. Without implantation the zygote would die just like the unused sperm, and obviously, without conception there would be no zygote.

So when does life begin? If it's at conception, about 1/3 of lives end without us even knowing they ever existed. The reason this is important is because people say "Life begins at conception because without any interference, that zygote will become a baby" and that just isn't true.

It's also important to note that a properly implanted zygote also doesn't necessarily develop into a viable human being. Stillbirths happen, we often don't know why. Miscarriages happen, we often don't know why. Babies are born with conditions that are incompatible with life, we often don't know why. Are they less "alive" in the womb than a healthy fetus when we often can't even tell the difference until it's too late?

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Life begins...

Quality of life matters more than life itself.

I agree with this. I've seen so much suffering in the name of the sanctity of life. It isn't what I'd want for myself or my loved ones.

 

[tamarin]

Yr right. We are clever primates who have made an industry of our importance. And we forget the basics. The bottom line.

 

[#juan]

Re: RE: Life begins...

About one third of all zygotes don't result in a pregnancy because they don't implant properly and the women wouldn't even know it happened. I can't imagine calling that a life.

"Not implanting properly" is just one of the risks. Remember, it started with about a quarter of a million sperm, and all but one of them is dead by this time. The properly implanted zygote is a living, growing, little human. It can't be anything else.

Then a human doesn't begin at conception, it begins at implantation? By that standard, drugs like Plan B are not abortifacients like many pro-life groups claim.

I think this notion is as arbitrary as any other. Why does implantation make it a human? The zygote itself is unchanged.

I didn't mean to imply that implantation was anything but another step on the journey. Without implantation the zygote would die just like the unused sperm, and obviously, without conception there would be no zygote.

So when does life begin? If it's at conception, about 1/3 of lives end without us even knowing they ever existed. The reason this is important is because people say "Life begins at conception because without any interference, that zygote will become a baby" and that just isn't true.

It's also important to note that a properly implanted zygote also doesn't necessarily develop into a viable human being. Stillbirths happen, we often don't know why. Miscarriages happen, we often don't know why. Babies are born with conditions that are incompatible with life, we often don't know why. Are they less "alive" in the womb than a healthy fetus when we often can't even tell the difference until it's too late?

Yes, miscarriages happen and still births happen and some babies are born with terrible defects. In a world where more and more of our food is artificial, we don't know what we are putting into our bodies, these things are all part of the risks facing a new little being. All things being equal, the normal course of events, is that a zygote will grow into a fetus and in about nine months, a baby will be born. Killing this little being at one point during that nine months, is the same as at any other point. Birth control is stopping conception from happening, not killing the result of that conception.

 

[LittleRunningGag]

So, no one has really answered the question. If life begins at conception, why stop there? Why isn't every egg considered a potential life? Why does no one seem to consider it wrong to allow that potential life to stop.

 

[china]

LittleRunningGag: Why isn't every egg considered a potential life.--------------------------------------------------------
I,m not too sure how it goes , but I heard that it takes one egg and one sperm together,for any potential to happen.But dont take my word ,I only heard that.

 

[tamarin]

One can only consider an argument over an 'egg' as arrogance. It simply reinforces the belief of many that man and God are interchangeable: Anything that has the remotest chance of becoming a god must be sacred.
LIfe begins at birth. Dawn begins with the appearance of the sun.

 

[china]

Life is sacred ,and so is intelligence.But if you dont belive me ,jump from a roof of a 5 story building . As far as becoming God ,well ,thats arrogance.

 

[hermanntrude]

maybe no new life is actually created. Maybe some of the mother's (and fathers, maybe) life passes from mother to zygote (or to gametes and combines).

Maybe it's not new life that happens in the creation of a child, but just the creation of a new consciousness. Still begs the question at which point is it wrong to end the development of the consciousness. I think abortions are acceptable at early stages. Morning after pills I have NO problem with, and stem cell etc, again no problem. Late abortions.... pushing things a bit far... rather nasty...

But it's not my place to make the laws and what i think makes no difference to the world. People need to know they're not in control of their governments, and probably never will be.

 

[tamarin]

If our life is sacred then all life is sacred. We're a remarkable hairless ape that has achieved admirable longevity. As we age we look more the animal we are. The fight over the egg is a proxy for our fight for divinity. There aren't many gods walking about in seniors' homes.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Life begins...

Yes, miscarriages happen and still births happen and some babies are born with terrible defects. In a world where more and more of our food is artificial, we don't know what we are putting into our bodies, these things are all part of the risks facing a new little being. All things being equal, the normal course of events, is that a zygote will grow into a fetus and in about nine months, a baby will be born. Killing this little being at one point during that nine months, is the same as at any other point. Birth control is stopping conception from happening, not killing the result of that conception[

.[/quote]

Many methods of birth control as common as the pill can stop implantation after conception. So are they causing abortions? That's the logical deduction if we accept the notion that killing an embryo is the same as killing a 9 month old fetus.

 

[hermanntrude]

Re: RE: Life begins...

If our life is sacred then all life is sacred.

If all life is sacred then u had better not take antibiotics, or de-flea your pets, or step on the ground, as u probably kill thousands of things a day just by walking.

Now i know i'm making this a little over-simple but the fact is we're gonna kill things always, and sometimes those deaths will be useful to us (for instance in getting rid of the infection in your eye before you go blind, or killing off the e.coli before u crap your liver out). So sometimes the choice is one life over another, and despite the fact we're hairless apes with an annoying habit of not-dying, we're bound to think of our lives as more sacred than those of the little balls of cells that are being thrown away by the dozen anyway.

 

[feronia]

Re: RE: Life begins...

If our life is sacred then all life is sacred.

If all life is sacred then u had better not take antibiotics, or de-flea your pets, or step on the ground, as u probably kill thousands of things a day just by walking.

Are you a Janist?

 

[#juan]

Tracy wrote:

Many methods of birth control as common as the pill can stop implantation after conception. So are they causing abortions? That's the logical deduction if we accept the notion that killing an embryo is the same as killing a 9 month old fetus.

It is my opinion that life begins with conception. Deliberately killing the zygote, or the fetus at any time during gestation is abortion. What else can it be? I have no problem with birth control pills. I can even accept the morning after,"oops" pill. I just think we should all understand clearly what we are killing. Some seem to think that killing the little grub early enough is okay. I do not. I won't be out picketing abortion clinics or anything like that, but I do have an opinion.

 

[hermanntrude]

I think that killing that "little grub" at a very early stage is sometimes the least nasty option. I think it's wrong but sometimes neccessary

 

[hermanntrude]

Re: RE: Life begins...

If our life is sacred then all life is sacred.

If all life is sacred then u had better not take antibiotics, or de-flea your pets, or step on the ground, as u probably kill thousands of things a day just by walking.

Are you a Janist?

No. I am pointing out the impracticality of strict morality

 

[tracy]

Tracy wrote:

Many methods of birth control as common as the pill can stop implantation after conception. So are they causing abortions? That's the logical deduction if we accept the notion that killing an embryo is the same as killing a 9 month old fetus.

It is my opinion that life begins with conception. Deliberately killing the zygote, or the fetus at any time during gestation is abortion. What else can it be? I have no problem with birth control pills. I can even accept the morning after,"oops" pill. I just think we should all understand clearly what we are killing. Some seem to think that killing the little grub early enough is okay. I do not. I won't be out picketing abortion clinics or anything like that, but I do have an opinion.

I just don't understand how you can say you're against abortion, and killing a zygote is abortion, then say you're ok with the pill or the morning after pill when they both kill zygotes. I don't get it.

 

[#juan]

Tracy

There are some things we have to accept. My wife was a nurse for thirty odd years. She was working while I was finishing college. At one particular hospital where she works as a scrub nurse in the OR, weekends were abortion time. All abortions re not tidy little D&Cs. A lot were late term, and the aborted fetuses were complete little babies. The worst thing was, that a lot of the women were having their third and forth abortion. This was just birth control for a good number of them. My wife used to come home in tears. The pill is a lessor evil. The morning after pill is better than the alternative.

 

[Colpy]

Boy, Juan, you stepped in a bit of a hornet's nest here......although the hornets appear to be polite at least.

I agree with you completely.

Edited to delete a bunch of my own BS.

 

[china]

It" a pity that the more "intellectual" we become ,the less respect we have for that which lives
All lives.