You know Oprha Windbag should give up reading and stick to angels, she's a sucker for bull****. Maybe it's her job to leak crap all over the world.
Israel...
- Thread starter dancing-loon
- Start date
The simple solution to that would have been to accept the 1948 partition. Then they'd be sovereign and could make the rules. As it happens, the West Bank has no status other than "disputed" since it was abandoned by Jordan.
Loon, seriously.
If this was a strike against all Gazans, an attempt to wipe out Gaza as the Warsaw ghetto was removed.
There would be no Gaza left. It wouldn't be F16's hitting specific targets, it would be millions of cheap, crude, unguided rockets like Hamas uses.
It would be complete artillerty bombardment.
There would be nothing left, it wouldnt' be a couple hundred dead, it would be a couple hundred thousand dead.
one should maintain a sense of proportian here.
More pro-Ethnic Cleansing propaganda... Palestinians were never consulted when the UN generously gave away their homes to Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Europe. The ethnic cleansing war started in 1947, not 1948. In 1948, the surrounding Arab countries finally decided to react to the atrocities and crimes against humanity committed by the Zionists. Again Palestinians were never consulted, nor were they a significant factor in the fighting because most were unarmed innocent civilians, not armed militants or soldiers. Palestinians didn't become militant and armed until years later.
Here is a viewpoint of a survivor.
If they had accepted the 1948 partition, the West Bank and Gaza would have been sovereign Palestinian territory. True or not? That's not propaganda, that's simple fact.
The above opinion is not only based on pro-Israel propaganda, its also factually wrong.
The UN partition plan was in 1947, not 1948, but I know what you meant.
The 1947 UN partition plan was an attempt by the UN to appease the Zionists and bring peace. But just like Chamberlain's appeasement of the Nazis, it didn't work. The proposed partition was never accepted by either side. Not the side getting screwed out of their land nor the Zionists. Zionist ethnic cleansing started in 1947, not 1948.
Back in 1947 when the UN proposed their partition, only one third of the people living in Palestine were Jews, most of whom were recent immigrants and refugees from Europe. Yet the UN awarded the ethnic minority most of Palestine, including control of most of Palestine's water and arable land.
By the time neighboring Arab nations finally acted to stop Zionist atrocities back in 1948, the Zionists had already ethnically cleansed most of what is today Israel. Intervention by the Arabs probably stopped the Zionists from cleansing the remainder of Palestine.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]History of Israel and Palestine:
1947 UN Partition Proposal [/FONT]
(click here for history before 1947)
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Palestine 1947 Map[/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1] [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Population of Palestine 1947 TOTAL 1,845,000[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]67% [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]non-Jewish
( 1,237,000 )[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]33%[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1] Jewish
( 608,000 )[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]UN Partition Recommendation
November 29, 1947 Map [/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Land[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Proposed
Jewish State[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Percentage of the land of Palestine
that was proposed for each State[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Proposed Jewish State on 56.47% of the land (excluding Jerusalem)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Proposed
Arab State[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Proposed Arab Palestinian State on 43.53% of the land
(excluding Jerusalem)[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Proposed Internationally Administered Zone that would have included Jerusalem[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]People[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Population for the International trusteeship regime in Jerusalem[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]105,000 Arabs [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]100,000Jews[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Population for the proposed
Jewish State[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Population for the proposed
Arab State[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]498,000 Jews[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]807,000 [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Arabs [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]325,000 Arabs[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]10,000Jews[/SIZE][/FONT]In practice, Zionists did not accept the UN Partition Plan. Zionists seized areas beyond the proposed Jewish State and did not recognize the International Zone. Using force and terrorism months before May 1948, Jews seized land beyond the UN proposed borders. The UN Plan was used as a pretense for taking over most of Palestine.
NOTE: This is a critical fact often omitted when the history is presented and this leads to a very distorted view of what happened in 1948. The misleading story often told is that "Jews declared Israel and then they were attacked." The fact is from November 1947 to May 1948 the Zionists were already on the offensive and had already attacked Arabs. In the months before Israel was declared, the Zionists had driven 300,000 non-Jews off their land. In the months before Israel was declared, the Zionists had seized land beyond the proposed Jewish State. SEE Sources or this blog entry: Sources for the Israeli/Palestinian situation 1947-1948
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Top three recommended books on the Israel and Palestine
See more info and other recommended books here:
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Recommended Books
on Israel and Palestine[/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
The Gun and the Olive Branch, Fateful Triangle and Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict
It is the Zionists that pushed for the radical idea that the land be divided up so that a "pure" racially established state of Jews could be established. They didn't want to live as equal citizens as is expected of all religions in America. But the division was only considered temporary by them since their goal was and is to take over all of Palestine.
The key Zionists had no intention of accepting that UN partition, a recommendation to chop up Palestine into 7 parts. 67% of the population didn't what that done. In 1938 Ben-Gurion said to other Zionists, “after we become a strong force, as the result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.” Sure enough, after the creation of the state in 1948, Menachem Begin made clear how serious the “Jews accepting the UN partition” was in reality, “The partition of the Homeland is illegal . It will never be recognized.The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever“.
"A partial Jewish state is not the end, but only the beginning ... I am certain that we will not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country, either by mutual agreement with our Arab neighbors <i>or by some other means...[If the Arabs refuse] <i>we shall have to speak to them in a different language. But we shall only have another language if we have a state." p162 Fateful Triangle The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians
Zionists immediately started seizing land, even land beyond what the UN partition set for the proposed Jewish State. Attacks were from both sides but were instigated by the Zionists seizing land and a reaction to the aggressive ethnic cleansing under way. After the massive ethnic cleansing and expansion beyond the UN suggested boarders, Arab states responded INTO THE AREAS THAT WERE TO BE FOR THE UN PROPOSED PALESTINIAN STATE. Also, Jordan had an agreement with Israel to prevent a Palestinian State so Jordan invaded the West Bank.
"The Zionists were by far the more powerful and better organized force, and by May 1948, when the state of Israel was formally established, about 300,000 Palestinians already had been expelled from their homes or had fled the fighting, and the Zionists controlled a region well beyond the area of the original Jewish state that had been proposed by the UN. Now it's then that Israel was attacked by its neighbors - in May 1948; it's then, after the Zionists had taken control of this much larger part of the region and hundreds of thousands of civilians had been forced out, not before." p132 Understanding Power: The Indispensable Chomsky
The fact that the rights of the majority, 67% of the population, were violated is suppressed in the media. Why in the world would you think it is legitimate for 33% of a population to seize land and carve up the land into 7 parts? Why in the world should 67% of a population ever accept that? These population stats, which highlight just how undemocratic the UN proposal really was, are almost never mentioned in US media.
The 1947 proposal was not the first land division scheme, the Peel Commission suggested a partition plan in 1937. Also if you look into it, the Zionists had no intention of accepting any fair partition. As Ben-Gurion himself said in 1937, "No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of Eretz Israel." (see p162 Fateful Triangle The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians)
The May 1948 unilateral declaration was by less than 33% of the population who were imposing their will on 67% of the non-Jews. In Nov 1947 the UN made a recommendation for a three-way partition of Palestine into a Jewish State, an Arab State and a small internationally administered zone that would have included Jerusalem. This was a recommendation by the UN General Assembly and General Assembly recommendations have no force, they are only recommendations. In fact Israel is the greatest rejecter of General Assembly resolutions by the way. When the recommendation was made, war broke out between the Palestinians and the Zionists who had been planning on taking over and before the end of the war they had amassed much more arms. By May 1948, when the Jews (33%) unilaterally declared "the state of Israel", 300,000 Palestinians had already been ethnically cleansed (forced from their homes or had fled the fighting) by the Zionists and the Zionists had stolen a region well beyond the area of the original Jewish State that was proposed by the UN. Then, after the Zionists had taken control of this much larger part of the region and hundreds of thousands of civilians had been forced out, "Israel" was attacked by its neighbors.
In 1967 the Jews attacked and took over the remaining part of Palestine with the intention of keeping it. All through the supposed "peace process" they have been illegally building on the occupied territories.
History of Israel: 1947 UN Partition Proposal
The Zionists will never be satisfied until they have cleansed all of Palestine of Arabs and have their pure Jewish only state. They weren't satisfied with a portion of Palestine back in 1947 and they they aren't satisfied with what they have now. If they were satisfied with what they have seized by force since 1947, then why do they keep seizing more land by force and expanding their Jewish only settlements? That's been going on for over 60 years now, regardless of whether they have a cooperative and peaceful relationship with Palestinians as they do now with Israeli collaborator and traitor Abbas or a hostile and violent relationship with Palestinians as they do with Hamas in Gaza.
Obviously the Zionists want all of Palestine and they won't be satisfied until Israel is completely cleansed of all non-Jews and the only Arabs remaining in what used to be Palestine live on UN handouts in open air prisons like Gaza. Once they've created this series of prisons, they will turn their attention to Arab Israeli citizens. They will demonize and provoke them and then use the resulting violence to deport them to the Palestinian concentration camps.
People who believe Zionists are interested in living peacefully with their neighbors don't understand Zionism. Peace or war is beside the point. What they want is a pure Jewish state in what used to be Palestine as ordained by God and they are willing to kill anyone who gets in their way.
If anyone is interested in knowing more about how we got to the current situation, I suggest you read this book by Jewish Israeli Historian, Ilan Pappe, who is a senior lecturer at Haifa University in Israel.
You know whats wrong with that map? Its not Palestine in 1947.
That is.
Perhaps you'll now notice a slight difference in what the scale means.
There was certainly moving populations (both ways)
As you notice traditionally jewish cities (like Hebron) had their Jewish populations shifted west. Jerusalem, despite being majority Jewish (as it had been long before any "jews from war torn europe" arrived) was made "international" rather than part of Israel ( yet palestine still tries to claim its illegal occupation as legal), partly by carefully trying to redraw the city of jerusalem to include more muslim communities to attempt to shift the population closer to an even split with the shifting balance being christian.
That is.
Perhaps you'll now notice a slight difference in what the scale means.
There was certainly moving populations (both ways)
As you notice traditionally jewish cities (like Hebron) had their Jewish populations shifted west. Jerusalem, despite being majority Jewish (as it had been long before any "jews from war torn europe" arrived) was made "international" rather than part of Israel ( yet palestine still tries to claim its illegal occupation as legal), partly by carefully trying to redraw the city of jerusalem to include more muslim communities to attempt to shift the population closer to an even split with the shifting balance being christian.
Thank you. I actually said partition, not partition plan, which was indeed 1948. Still, I know what you meant.
It is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. If the Arabs had accepted the partition, regardless of whether they were happy about it or not, and even regardless of any plans for future expansion, they would have been a sovereign Palestinian Arab nation. That is my simple point which all your copy and pasting will not refute.
Which proves my point exactly. The Jews may not have been entirely happy with the partition, but they went along. Is Israel sovereign today?
You know whats wrong with that map? Its not Palestine in 1947.
That is.
Perhaps you'll now notice a slight difference in what the scale means.
There was certainly moving populations (both ways)
As you notice traditionally jewish cities (like Hebron) had their Jewish populations shifted west. Jerusalem, despite being majority Jewish (as it had been long before any "jews from war torn europe" arrived) was made "international" rather than part of Israel ( yet palestine still tries to claim its illegal occupation as legal), partly by carefully trying to redraw the city of jerusalem to include more muslim communities to attempt to shift the population closer to an even split with the shifting balance being christian.
More pro-ethnic cleansing propaganda.
The British Mandate of Palestine comprised two Ottoman provinces: TransJordan and Palestine.
Before Zionism, only a very small population of Jews lived in Palestine and none lived in the TransJordan. Jews lived in both Hebron and Jerusalem, but they were a small minority in both cities.
One requirement for Jewish refugees to be able to claim to any part of the TransJordan would be a Jewish presence. The number of Jews living in the TransJordan part of the British Mandate of Palestine (east of the Jordan river) in 1947 was 0. As in none. Why would Jews have any right to land where they didn't live?
Technically the UN had no authority to create a Jewish state anywhere. That should have been determined by referendum by the local inhabitants rather than dictated by foreigners.
If the UN had kept the British Mandate of Palestine as a single country, the Jews would have been a very small minority. That's why they divided it into the two Ottoman provinces, Palestine and TransJordan. TransJordan became Jordan. In Palestine, Jews were still a minority. In order to create an area where Jews were a majority, the UN partitioned Palestine again. The UN very carefully divided Palestine so that the Jewish minority would form a thin on a majority of Palestine:
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Palestine 1947 Map[/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1] [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Population of Palestine 1947 TOTAL 1,845,000[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]67% [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]non-Jewish
( 1,237,000 )[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]33%[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1] Jewish
( 608,000 )[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]UN Partition Recommendation
November 29, 1947 Map [/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Land[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Proposed
Jewish State[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Percentage of the land of Palestine
that was proposed for each State[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Proposed Jewish State on 56.47% of the land (excluding Jerusalem)[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Proposed
Arab State[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Proposed Arab Palestinian State on 43.53% of the land
(excluding Jerusalem)[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Proposed Internationally Administered Zone that would have included Jerusalem[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]People[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Population for the International trusteeship regime in Jerusalem[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]105,000 Arabs [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]100,000Jews[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Population for the proposed
Jewish State[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Population for the proposed
Arab State[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]498,000 Jews[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]807,000 [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Arabs [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]325,000 Arabs[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]10,000Jews[/SIZE][/FONT]http://www.representativepress.org/IsraelHistory.html
A pie chart of the ratio of Jews to non-Jews in the Transjordan doesn't exist. That's because not a single Jew lived in the TransJordan part of the British Mandate of Palestine.
Z would have a better case arguing that Jews have a right to a part of Japan. Thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Europe in the 1930's eneded up in Japan just like thousands ended up in Palestine (the former Ottoman province).
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Japan.html
Jews have had a presence in Japan since the late 1800's. But they had no presence in the TransJordan back in 1947. The last time a significant number of Jews lived in that part of the world was in biblical times.
So if we are going to start creating Jewish homelands in areas where none live like TransJordan, then what about Mongolia, Antarctica, Togo, Papau New Guinea... Should the UN award Jews homelands in these places too?
If the partition was fair, then the amount of land and people transferred in both directions would have been about even. But it wasn't even close. During the 1947 ethnic cleansing war, 800,000 people lost their homes and property on one side while 10,000 on the other. But fairness was never part of the equation and it still isn't.
Z's belief that the TransJordan be included in this equation would have resulted in 1.6 million displaced people in one direction and none in the other.
Tiny Minority in Jerusalem?
Not according to Ottoman records. Nice try though.
Since 1844 they were the largest group (larger than either Muslims or Christians but not quite more than both) and by 1896 they were larger than both groups.
Now, I don't doubt some of these people were immigrants, as were many of the Muslims and Christians who moved into the city.
But are you going to sit here in a Canadian forum and claim the descendants of Immigrants have no right to claim their land of birth as their own rightful land?
Not according to Ottoman records. Nice try though.
Since 1844 they were the largest group (larger than either Muslims or Christians but not quite more than both) and by 1896 they were larger than both groups.
Now, I don't doubt some of these people were immigrants, as were many of the Muslims and Christians who moved into the city.
But are you going to sit here in a Canadian forum and claim the descendants of Immigrants have no right to claim their land of birth as their own rightful land?
What I said was "Before Zionism, only a very small population of Jews lived in Palestine and none lived in the TransJordan. Jews lived in both Hebron and Jerusalem, but they were a small minority in both cities."
OK I stand corrected about Jerusalem. It had a sizable Jewish minority before Zionism (late 1800's):
But I stand by my statement about Hebron:
But your belief that Jerusalem and Hebron being Jewish cities is inaccurate.
Also your belief that Jews where entitled to more than what the UN awarded them is based on a name, rather than demographics and property ownership. The British Mandate of Palestinian was overwhelmingly Arab. If they had divided this area fairly, then as few people as possible would have been displaced and it would have been an equal number in both directions. The fact the part the UN partitioned was 67% Arab and 33% Jewish. Yet they awarded 44% of the land to the Arabs and 56% of the land to the Jews. Even without the war, the UN would have put 325,000 Arabs on the Israeli side and 10,000 Jews on the Arab side. Also the Israelis would have ended up with most of the arable land and control of most of the water. So the UN partition was hardly fair, even without taking into account regions where no Jews lived...
I never claimed "the descendants of Immigrants have no right to claim their land of birth as their own rightful land." I have no idea where you got that idea. Can you quote me?
OK I stand corrected about Jerusalem. It had a sizable Jewish minority before Zionism (late 1800's):
But I stand by my statement about Hebron:
But your belief that Jerusalem and Hebron being Jewish cities is inaccurate.
Also your belief that Jews where entitled to more than what the UN awarded them is based on a name, rather than demographics and property ownership. The British Mandate of Palestinian was overwhelmingly Arab. If they had divided this area fairly, then as few people as possible would have been displaced and it would have been an equal number in both directions. The fact the part the UN partitioned was 67% Arab and 33% Jewish. Yet they awarded 44% of the land to the Arabs and 56% of the land to the Jews. Even without the war, the UN would have put 325,000 Arabs on the Israeli side and 10,000 Jews on the Arab side. Also the Israelis would have ended up with most of the arable land and control of most of the water. So the UN partition was hardly fair, even without taking into account regions where no Jews lived...
I never claimed "the descendants of Immigrants have no right to claim their land of birth as their own rightful land." I have no idea where you got that idea. Can you quote me?
Thank you, we have gone over this before however.
My statement about Hebron wasn't that it was Jewish Majority, its that it had Jewish refugees evicted. Thus they are "Palestinian Refugees" like any other are they not? And if you believe muslim Palestinian refugees have a right of return, shouldn't Jewish ones?
I never claimed (or at least intended to) that it was Jewish Majority, only that it had a sizeable Jewish population forced out who should have the same rights one would give to any other group of refugees (however you choose to define them).
You can't call them settlers if you believe "Palestinian Refugees" have a right of return.
Immediately, no.
But then the question becomes, if you do believe that, than what the hell does the history of Israel matter in either way.
Everyone in Israel stays and everyone outside of Israel stays outside in the land of THEIR birth.
But you do keep going back to history as a source of importance...
History like this. If you are going to respond to this post then respond to the quotes only.
Although Israeli politicians and their supporters in
the U.S. often claimed that the purpose of Jewish
settlements in the West Bank and Gaza is for Israeli
security, the quotes below give insight into their true
purpose—expanding Israeli territory and obstructing
peace, in violation of international law.
International law
"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer
parts of its own civilian population into the
territory it occupies." —Article 49 of the Fourth
Geneva Convention of 1949
"We consider these settlements to be contrary to
the Geneva Convention, that occupied territory
should not be changed by establishment of permanent
settlements by the occupying power".
President Carter (Q&A with American Jewish Press
Association, June 13, 1980, Washington)
"Since the end of the 1967 war, the U.S. has
regarded Israel as the occupying power in the
occupied territories, which includes the West Bank,
Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. The
U.S. considers Israel's occupation to be governed
by the Hague Regulations of 1907 and the 1949
Geneva Conventions concerning the protection of
civilian populations under military occupation."
—US Ambassador to the UN Pickering (27 November
1989)
Expansion and settlement
"It's not a matter of maintaining the status quo.
We have to create a dynamic state, oriented towards
expansion." —Ben Gurion
"Take the American declaration of Independence. It
contains no mention of territorial limits. We are
not obliged to fix the limits of the State."
—Moshe Dayan (Jerusalem Post, 08/10/1967)
"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the
essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will
not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
—Yitzhak Shamir (Maariv, 02/21/1997)
"In strategic terms, the settlements (in Judea,
Samaria, and Gaza) are of no importance."
—Binyamin Begin, son of the late Menahem Begin and
a prominent voice in the Likud party writing in
1991. (Quoted in Findley, Deliberate Deceptions; p
159) Paul Findley notes that Begin added that their
importance was that "they constitute an obstacle,
an insurmountable obstacle to the establishment of
an independent Arab State west of the river
Jordan."
"Without [the settlements] the IDF [Israeli Defense
Force] would be a foreign army ruling a foreign
population." — Defense Minister Moshe Dayan (quoted
in Aronson, Geoffrey, Settlements and the Israeli-
Palestinian Negotiations; Institute for Palestinian
Studies)
"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear
message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the
River Jordan for future generations, for the mass
aliya [immigration], and for the Jewish people, all
of whom will be gathered into this country."
—Yitzhak Shamir ("Former Prime Minister Yitzhak
Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for
former Likud leaders"; Jerusalem Domestic Radio
Service, November 1990)
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister,addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will
be able to do about it will be to scurry around
like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." — Raphael
Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces
(New York Times, 14 April 1983)
Expulsion of Palestinians
"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return" David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.
"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.
"If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist.Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; KibbutzGvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman.There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969. "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin leakedcensored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979. "There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than overthose of a tenant. tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:...the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish...with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary." Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department. From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5. "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonization or Jewish Statewithout the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.
"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.
"We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978. "How can we return the occupied territories? There
is nobody to return them to." — Golda Meir, March
8, 1969
Violence and racism against Arabs
"May the Holy Name visit retribution on the Arabs' heads, and cause their seed to be lost, and annihilate them, and cause them to be vanquished and cause them to be cast from the world. It is forbidden to be merciful to them, you must give them missiles, with relish - annihilate them. Evilones, damnable ones." -- Ultra-Orthodox Shas Party spiritual leader Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, in a sermon discussing Passover and God's wrath at Israel's enemies, 8 April 2001. Some months ago he distinguished himself by describing Arabs as "snakes" whom "God regrets having created". "[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs." Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in AmnonKapeliouk, 'Begin and the "Beasts"', New Statesman, 25 June1982 "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum" Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters" Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs,1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.
International law
You know the international law you quote only applies to occupied territories not abandoned for one.
and two that the only area where settlements are being removed is Jerusalem, which was a sovereign Jewish Majority state when this began, illegally occupied by Jordan and now claimed by Palestine as somehow theirs, because they illegally occupied it for 20 years. Jerusalem has defacto democratically chosen to merge with Israel.
and two that the only area where settlements are being removed is Jerusalem, which was a sovereign Jewish Majority state when this began, illegally occupied by Jordan and now claimed by Palestine as somehow theirs, because they illegally occupied it for 20 years. Jerusalem has defacto democratically chosen to merge with Israel.
Israel
"Ground troops massed on the border, waiting for a signal to invade Gaza, but international cease-fire efforts were also gaining momentum."
Typical Israeli Bull--Israel is simply out to destroy all it can --From a Distance
More Bull -Israel let foreign citizen leave Gaza, not Palestinians
Israeli ground forces are there to shell Gaza, secure lines/border but not to attack by ground
Palestinian rockets scare the Israelis but are ineffective and produce very few casualties and little dammage. Israel gets a sliver and screams to the world that it has been impaled
Why Palestinians fire rockets?--Israeli whine is internationally audible while Palestinian cries are mute
Most of the Gaza Freedom fighters whent safe places and scatter scored arms. Its not like Plestinians have anything more than a gun.
Iran is giving them arms? If that were true Israli tanks, planes, ships would not be able to continue the assault without a scratch
Glad Israelis are not Christians
"Ground troops massed on the border, waiting for a signal to invade Gaza, but international cease-fire efforts were also gaining momentum."
Typical Israeli Bull--Israel is simply out to destroy all it can --From a Distance
More Bull -Israel let foreign citizen leave Gaza, not Palestinians
Israeli ground forces are there to shell Gaza, secure lines/border but not to attack by ground
Palestinian rockets scare the Israelis but are ineffective and produce very few casualties and little dammage. Israel gets a sliver and screams to the world that it has been impaled
Why Palestinians fire rockets?--Israeli whine is internationally audible while Palestinian cries are mute
Most of the Gaza Freedom fighters whent safe places and scatter scored arms. Its not like Plestinians have anything more than a gun.
Iran is giving them arms? If that were true Israli tanks, planes, ships would not be able to continue the assault without a scratch
Glad Israelis are not Christians
"We call on the Israeli government to immediately honor the will of the court and allow foreign journalists access to Gaza," the Foreign Press Association said in a statement. "The authorities' position that there was not enough time to coordinate and allow the journalists to enter does not seem reasonable."
Israeli lies to cover Israeli lies. One would think that if Israel were truthful Israel would welcome international journalists- to welcome Gaza Ghetto happenings
Israeli lies to cover Israeli lies. One would think that if Israel were truthful Israel would welcome international journalists- to welcome Gaza Ghetto happenings
Id say its a little biased by proximity and friendship, but no doubt alot of that is true. However the truce with Gaza never came into effect.
The truce had one condition on Israels end, stop firing rockets.
Its not a truce if you are still shooting at people.
The truce had one condition on Israels end, stop firing rockets.
Its not a truce if you are still shooting at people.