Is Quebec sovereignty on the rise?
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You know what Gerry, despite the animosity we've had between us, I totally respect your devotion to Canada and your refusal to see it ''carved up''. Your concern for your country is totally legitimate and you have every right to be infuriated by the fact that some people want to separate and cut the country in two. Still, that doesn't give you the right to lack respect. Separatists don't eat babies for breakfast. They have families, laugh and cry and bleed the same colour as you. Some of them are total ****s. Others are incredibly thoughtful and beautiful people. Most of them are ordinary people like you and me.
That's all I have to say. Perhaps one day we'll be able to actually have a discussion when you stop systematically insulting my fellow Quebecers. Did it ever occur that an aggressive attitude such as yours does NOTHING to improve dialogue between cultures?
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What are you going to do? Go there and kick their collective asses?
Having been of British heritage growing up in Quebec, I saw first hand how the English treated the French (not as bad as the Church or their own leaders: ie Duplessie). They were treated almost as bad as blacks in the US. I have a lot f empathy for their past treatment but I also think it is time to get past all that.
Let me first tackle the original question. Is sovereignty on the rise?
The truth is I don't think there's any clear answer. While the polls do vary according to what's going on in politics. I think it's pretty safe to say that about 40% of Quebecers wish Quebec was a country. Another 40% is happy with Quebec being a part of Canada. The remaining 20% is ambiguous about it all. But in the face of ambiguity, I think the status quo (federalism) always has a clear advantage. We all know pretty much what to expect by staying in Canada but nobody really knows what would end up happening should the YES side win in a future referendum. We all know there's an amount of risk involved. I personally was too young to vote in 1995. I probably would have voted NO because my parents are not separatists. But now being an adult, I refuse to take a clear stance until the day i actually have to fill in a ballot on the issue. The issue is too complex and I'm satisfied with staying as informed as I can and fighting what seems stupid and supporting what seems smart on both sides.
The current political situation in Quebec is complicated. Nobody really expected the NDP wave last federal election. In a sense, it was the best news for federalism in Quebec for a very long time yet we ended up with an aggressive majority conservative government that very few Quebecers voted for. The result is that Canada feels even more like a foreign country than it used to. But it needs to be said again and again that this state of affairs is very much due to our (IMO) outdated electoral system. Would the system be more able to represent Canadians proportionally, our current federal government would be much closer to what most Quebecers view as being a progressive government.
On a provincial level the only truly federalist party is plagued with corruption allegations. And they've been in power for 9 years... They're getting tired. Yet the PQ isn't performing as it ought to considering the weakness of the Liberals... The PQ is also sounding old and tired... There's a new party called the CAQ (Coalition Avenir Québec) that will really screw up all attempts to predict the next government in Quebec because they will cause a myriad of 3 way races that are hard to predict. The party in question is lead by François Legeault, an ex PQ member who has proposed we put the debate on sovereignty on the back burner for at least 10 years and focus on putting Quebec in shape financially speaking. It all makes sense to a lot of people but they still appear as too right wing for the majority. At first it was thought that this new party would mostly eat through the PQ vote but last by-election seems to suggest that might not be true. The PQ won a district which the Liberals had for almost forever because Liberal voters didn't turn out to vote or seem to have voted for the CAQ...
As I already said, the status quo always has an advantage, but its downfall is that the unresolved issues concerning Quebec's relation to Canada just rot and get stinky... We'll be dealing with this problem again and again until we truly separate or until we truly integrate Canada with dignity (I'm talking about signing the Constitution)
The truth is I don't think there's any clear answer. While the polls do vary according to what's going on in politics. I think it's pretty safe to say that about 40% of Quebecers wish Quebec was a country. Another 40% is happy with Quebec being a part of Canada. The remaining 20% is ambiguous about it all. But in the face of ambiguity, I think the status quo (federalism) always has a clear advantage. We all know pretty much what to expect by staying in Canada but nobody really knows what would end up happening should the YES side win in a future referendum. We all know there's an amount of risk involved. I personally was too young to vote in 1995. I probably would have voted NO because my parents are not separatists. But now being an adult, I refuse to take a clear stance until the day i actually have to fill in a ballot on the issue. The issue is too complex and I'm satisfied with staying as informed as I can and fighting what seems stupid and supporting what seems smart on both sides.
The current political situation in Quebec is complicated. Nobody really expected the NDP wave last federal election. In a sense, it was the best news for federalism in Quebec for a very long time yet we ended up with an aggressive majority conservative government that very few Quebecers voted for. The result is that Canada feels even more like a foreign country than it used to. But it needs to be said again and again that this state of affairs is very much due to our (IMO) outdated electoral system. Would the system be more able to represent Canadians proportionally, our current federal government would be much closer to what most Quebecers view as being a progressive government.
On a provincial level the only truly federalist party is plagued with corruption allegations. And they've been in power for 9 years... They're getting tired. Yet the PQ isn't performing as it ought to considering the weakness of the Liberals... The PQ is also sounding old and tired... There's a new party called the CAQ (Coalition Avenir Québec) that will really screw up all attempts to predict the next government in Quebec because they will cause a myriad of 3 way races that are hard to predict. The party in question is lead by François Legeault, an ex PQ member who has proposed we put the debate on sovereignty on the back burner for at least 10 years and focus on putting Quebec in shape financially speaking. It all makes sense to a lot of people but they still appear as too right wing for the majority. At first it was thought that this new party would mostly eat through the PQ vote but last by-election seems to suggest that might not be true. The PQ won a district which the Liberals had for almost forever because Liberal voters didn't turn out to vote or seem to have voted for the CAQ...
As I already said, the status quo always has an advantage, but its downfall is that the unresolved issues concerning Quebec's relation to Canada just rot and get stinky... We'll be dealing with this problem again and again until we truly separate or until we truly integrate Canada with dignity (I'm talking about signing the Constitution)
How would Quebec pay for their social programs without the generous contributions from the rest of Canada? Quebec would be a failed Greek state within a dozen years of separating.
If they support the separatist agenda, they are traitors to Canada. Not worth the shyte on the soles of my shoes and I will NOT treat them with an ounce more respect than I think they deserve because of it.
Of course they are not. They are not a people. They were a handful of peasants who were settled here and abandoned by the elites as Britain won on the Plains of Abraham. Read what I wrote. It is fact.
Best terms of conquest I can recall Britain giving anyone. If Britain had claimed her due from the conquered, they'd be worshiping in an Anglican Church and speaking English.
How do you get the idea they were settled by anyone other than themselves ... or abandoned?
How do you get the idea they were settled by anyone other than themselves ... or abandoned?
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:roll::roll:
You really don't have a clue, do you. Did you fall asleep during High School Social Studies? This is basic North American History. The 7 year war/French Indian war.......... forget it, I'm not about to educate you. Obviously you are well beyond being able to be "educated".
and a lot more than that. Their laws would also be based differently.
By "rest of Canada'' you mean from the so-called ''have provinces''? Last I knew Ontario wasn't a have province anymore... Could Ontario manage on its own?
Something needs to be remembered about transfer payments. The system is designed to transfer some wealth from richer provinces to comparatively ''poorer'' provinces. But the fact remains that internationally speaking, Canada is rich as a whole. So the ''poorest'' of us are just less rich than the richest of us... Like Alberta... In other words. If you're a billionaire, and I'm a millionaire, that doesn't make me poor.
That being said, Quebec is far from being the worst ''have-not'' province when you consider a per capita calculation.
Most of Quebec's ''generous'' social programs are payed for by Quebecers by our high taxes. Would we separate, we would lose that transfer money from the res of Canada. But considering Quebec's been wasting tons of money because of a corrupted to the core construction industry for decades, a lot could've been saved if the province had been managed in a better way. And let's not forget that at least a portion of transfer payment money is payed for by federal income tax of Quebecers. A point could also be made that would we already be a country, we'd stop wasting so much time and energy bickering about this issue and finally be more efficient as a collectivity.
Quebec clearly needs to improve its financial situation and yes, separating would involve making sacrifices in the short and medium term. But the idea behind sovereignty in Quebec is about much more than money. It's about a nation wanting to manage its own affairs. It's pretty simple in the end.
It's quite to the honour of Canada of permitting a separatist movement to thrive peacefully. Calling us traitors just reinforces the lingering stench of imperialism.
Quebec has been on the dole for years, the transfers you receive (8 billion last year)allow you to have services that are not available in any other province. Name another province that has free day care of university tuitions under $2000.00. It is partly the federal governments fault thought as they feel the need to placate your politicians.
Please explain how why you need 8 billion in transfer payments if your "high taxes" fund your social programs?
Also, there is the debt Quebec would have to assume upon separation, which would make your situation all the more dire.
In the end though, I agree. Quebec should separate, it's a failed experiment.
Now give me some money. :lol:
I guess that puts to lie your previous statement that you hadn't decided yet where your allegiances were. Not that I had any doubt.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Don't like living in Canada? Pack your bags and flock off.
Quebec is quite well able to survive economically on its own. That is not in question nor is it the question.
If you read what I have been saying, you would understand that I have much more than a clue. I co-founded the most significant anti separatist and anti language laws movement in the 1970s and lived it night and day for five years. I wrote many articles and chaired the policy and communication committee of the movement.
Members of the movement included scores of academics and, as I wrote elsewhere, some who know more of this than you would if you devoted your life to improving on the superficial grounding of your High School Social Studies courses.
If you read what I have been saying, you would understand that I have much more than a clue. I co-founded the most significant anti separatist and anti language laws movement in the 1970s and lived it night and day for five years. I wrote many articles and chaired the policy and communication committee of the movement.
Members of the movement included scores of academics and, as I wrote elsewhere, some who know more of this than you would if you devoted your life to improving on the superficial grounding of your High School Social Studies courses.
Ya ya ya.... and your a climate expert, and an energy expert, and, and, and,./........ basically, IN MY OPINION, you are an expert blowhard, that hasn't done ANYTHING that you purport to have done and are ignorant as hell.
A well thought out and well written post. My brother has lived in Quebec for about 35 years and he's totally against separation!
I'm perfectly honest that I might very well be voting YES in a future referendum if there is one. I might also vote NO. It will depend on the context. The fact that you consider YES voters as traitors makes me a possible ''traitor'' in your view.
If anyone dug a little deeper , all the political parties have corruption scandals.... the construction scam was very much alive when the PQ was in power too , it wasn't in the media then...
lately I find alot of people being dazzled by the media as it is trying to pin everything on the Liberal...not defending them ...
Hell I have seperatist friend who will probably vote Liberal if they don't fold to the student protest pressures... interesting.
Alot of BS is going on in Quebec.... there is a certain detachement from reality .... the people wanted an inquirey to the construction scandal...... that would of been useless.... as it would wipe it as evidence for the police investigation that is under way.... they are getting results , but that too could be for show.... but still , i think the PQ are hitting hard before the crap will also fall on thier head soon...... all parties got money .
This will always be an emotional issue........I so do not miss that
So the media is giving the party in power a rough time and that's a bad thing?
Shows how divided Quebec really is right now. The federalist / separatist divide clearly isn't enough to explain the situation. People are more and more polarized between the right and left. There also clearly is a clash of generations that is becoming obvious. Personally, I'm torn between voting with my heart for Quebec Solidaire or pinching my nose and voting PQ. While Quebec Solidaire may be a bit on the idealistic and utopian side, they are strong militants for electoral reform (which we badly need) and I really don't think they are plagued by the same ethical issues as the big parties.
If your friend is a true separatist and says he'll vote for Jean Charest for standing up to the students, he must truly hate the students. Not my case. While there clearly was some abuse on the part of some students, I'm largely on their side. Did your friend spend spring time complaining about ''those spoiled little brats'' or ''maudits enfants gâtés''. Does he realize my generation and the younger ones will be paying as much income tax as the older ones throughout our life time?
Hey listen to this. Rice and potatoes are pretty cheap to buy right? Doesn't it seem unfair to you that rich people are paying so cheap for rice and potatoes while they could afford to pay much more? I know, let's raise the price of rice and potatoes drastically so the rich pay what they can truly afford! All we need to do is offer loans to the poor so they too can buy rice and potatoes. They'll get in debt but they can repay it gradually as the years go by.
Does that sound fair to you? How does this apply differently to tuition fees?
With the corruption allegations plaguing Quebec for the last few years, people have a right to know what's going on. If the truth is that both big parties have been benefitting from a corrupt system of ''scratch my back I'll scratch yours'' to the expense of tax payer money than let it be known loud and clear so that the people start voting for more ethical politicians and so the system can be improved.
I'm more than glad there is a public inquiry.