If Quebec were to have a provincial election tomorrow...

[LeftistPatriot]

The PQ would form a landslide majority government, the ADQ would carry the old Union NAZIonal heartland + Quebec City, and the Liberals would be so fucked that they'd be lucky if the Equality Party didn't rise from the ashes to kick them out of West Island...Maybe they'd win Hull and Gatineau.

 

[Bluerocks]

The PQ would form a landslide majority government, the ADQ would carry the old Union NAZIonal heartland + Quebec City, and the Liberals would be so fucked that they'd be lucky if the Equality Party didn't rise from the ashes to kick them out of West Island...Maybe they'd win Hull and Gatineau.

Dude, either you are dreaming or :dontknow:

The PQ is having a hard time as it is finding their leader. Landry quit and Legault don't feel like it :lol:

Should I go on with Pauline Marois.

Critics pointed out, however, that she had a good income, the help of a nanny and a cleaning lady and the support of husband Claude Blanchet, who went on to become head of the Societe generale de financement, a Quebec government investment agency.

It wasn't the only criticism she faced.

She was stung with barbs about lavish spending on office renovations when she was health minister in 1999. That year, she ignited a furor when she spent $800,000 in public funds on new offices in Montreal and Quebec City - including the addition of a silent-flush toilet. She spent another $90,000 on a new office in Longueuil the following year.

 

[Cathou]

The PQ would form a landslide majority government, the ADQ would carry the old Union NAZIonal heartland + Quebec City, and the Liberals would be so fucked that they'd be lucky if the Equality Party didn't rise from the ashes to kick them out of West Island...Maybe they'd win Hull and Gatineau.

Dude, either you are dreaming or :dontknow:

The PQ is having a hard time as it is finding their leader. Landry quit and Legault don't feel like it :lol:

Should I go on with Pauline Marois.

hard time to find a leader ? maybe you should read the news sometimes. right now there is Marois, André Boiclair, Louis Bernard, Hugues Cormier, Jean Ouimet should announced his candidature monday, and probably Richard Legendre later this week...

and with Charest popularity that keep sinking to new low levels, i dont expect them to have much succes in the next campain. But ADQ will probably get way more votes this time...

 

[Bluerocks]

and with Charest popularity that keep sinking to new low levels, i dont expect them to have much succes in the next campain. But ADQ will probably get way more votes this time...

That is because the Media has made him out to look bad. I am not saying that he is all that great. He is a much better option than the PQ, I tell you that. All they care about is sovereignty and nothing else.

Have you ever considered the fact that Charest has to fix the problems left over from the PQ? Landry & Marois have indebted the province and left some loopholes. Yet, rarely does the media talk about that.

 

[Cathou]

and with Charest popularity that keep sinking to new low levels, i dont expect them to have much succes in the next campain. But ADQ will probably get way more votes this time...

That is because the Media has made him out to look bad. I am not saying that he is all that great. He is a much better option than the PQ, I tell you that. All they care about is sovereignty and nothing else.

Have you ever considered the fact that Charest has to fix the problems left over from the PQ? Landry & Marois have indebted the province and left some loopholes. Yet, rarely does the media talk about that.

the thing is that most people dont see what they have done... hospitals are still crowded, they kept going in a direction, then suddently go to the other way. no matter what they done, if people dont have the feeling that they go somewhere, they wont pass the next election.

and like i said, dont think only about landry and marois. Marois is far from winning the leadership of the PQ, i dont like her either...

 

[Booh]

The PQ would form a landslide majority government

A lot can change during an electoral campaign. Will the PQ win? Maybe. But don't forget they will run on a sovereignist agenda and that doesn't reach everyone, not even half the people of Québec.

The ADQ, on the other hand, has their new autonomist agenda that might be able to get a larger support once people learn about it. And their plans are already clearer than the PQ's.

the ADQ would carry the old Union NAZIonal

L'Union Nationale wasn't the best party ever but to say Nazi... and you can thank them for electrifying Québec.

hard time to find a leader ? maybe you should read the news sometimes. right now there is Marois, André Boiclair, Louis Bernard, Hugues Cormier, Jean Ouimet should announced his candidature monday, and probably Richard Legendre later this week...

I don't think any of them has the stature of a leader.

But ADQ will probably get way more votes this time...

It is very likely they'll get the pro-Canada vote and maybe the votes of those who used to see sovereignty as the only way to achieve more autonomy.

He is a much better option than the PQ, I tell you that.

It's not hard to be a better choice than the PQ. PQ is synonymous with poor management.

I hate the liberals but I hate the PQ with a burning passion (and I used to like them when I was sovereignist... silly me )

Have you ever considered the fact that Charest has to fix the problems left over from the PQ?

You mean there were problems when the Saint-Péquistes left office?

Landry & Marois have indebted the province and left some loopholes. Yet, rarely does the media talk about that.

What debt? Do you mean that 118 billion dollars thingy that increases every year and suffocates our public finances?

Eliminating the debt should be one of our top priorities, way above this sovereignty people are tired of hearing about.

Marois is far from winning the leadership of the PQ, i dont like her either...

Nothing is ever certain in politics (except that the Bloc will never take power in Ottawa). She could win. My francophone, autonomist and Canada loving self would like it if she won but I don't think she will.

 

[Bluerocks]

Very good insight, Booh.

I have to agree with most of what you said. The PQ is running on old ideas. As for the ADQ, they actually have a newer and logical platform. And as far the the PQ leadership goes, no one there has had proven leadership skills. Also, glad to hear that you finally came to your senses and realized that the PQ program is outdated :toothy5:

I have to say that I like this best:

Landry & Marois have indebted the province and left some loopholes. Yet, rarely does the media talk about that.

What debt? Do you mean that 118 billion dollars thingy that increases every year and suffocates our public finances?

Eliminating the debt should be one of our top priorities, way above this sovereignty people are tired of hearing about.

 

[Nascar_James]

The PQ would form a landslide majority government, the ADQ would carry the old Union NAZIonal heartland + Quebec City, and the Liberals would be so fucked that they'd be lucky if the Equality Party didn't rise from the ashes to kick them out of West Island...Maybe they'd win Hull and Gatineau.

Dude, either you are dreaming or :dontknow:

The PQ is having a hard time as it is finding their leader. Landry quit and Legault don't feel like it :lol:

Should I go on with Pauline Marois.

hard time to find a leader ? maybe you should read the news sometimes. right now there is Marois, André Boiclair, Louis Bernard, Hugues Cormier, Jean Ouimet should announced his candidature monday, and probably Richard Legendre later this week...

and with Charest popularity that keep sinking to new low levels, i dont expect them to have much succes in the next campain. But ADQ will probably get way more votes this time...

You are right ... in the sense that the ADQ would get more votes. As far as I remember (when I was living in Montreal) Quebec doesn't have a conservative party anymore, so the only alternative for folks on the right would be the ADQ (although it is more center than right, it is still more to the right than the liberals, without question).

I still cannot for the life of me figure out the voting patterns of the folks living in Quebec. I do know a lot of them (especially the older folks) are conservative by nature (they are against abortion, attend church weekly, are pro-tax cuts and against excessive government social spending, pro death penalty, want to preseve our traditional definition of marriage ...etc). SO WHY IN SAM HILL DO THEY KEEP VOTING FOR THE LIBERALS??? I STILL DON'T GET IT??? Here in the U.S. there is no mystery, you know that the average individual will vote for the party that he/she represents.

 

[s_lone]

I still cannot for the life of me figure out the voting patterns of the folks living in Quebec. I do know a lot of them (especially the older folks) are conservative by nature (they are against abortion, attend church weekly, are pro-tax cuts and against excessive government social spending, pro death penalty, want to preseve our traditional definition of marriage ...etc). SO WHY IN SAM HILL DO THEY KEEP VOTING FOR THE LIBERALS??? I STILL DON'T GET IT??? Here in the U.S. there is no mystery, you know that the average individual will vote for the party that he/she represents.

Whoa! I don't when's the last time you came to Quebec but the type of conservative people you are describing are pretty rare around here! I think it's pretty safe to say that a strong majority of Quebecers are for the right to abortion. There is literally no social debate on death penalty up here, believe me. Quebec is pretty much the most tolerant province towards homosexuals and quite open on the marriage issue. As for attending church weekly... :lol: HAHAHA! Our churches are literally emptying themselves. Seriously, almost only the old folks go to church and they just keep dying and dying... Unless there is major turn of events, the church in Quebec is heading towards no man's land.

The only significant conservative trend in Quebec has to do with money, money and money. Taxes, social spending etc. Moral conservatism is definetly not strong here in Quebec.

According to your previous posts, I am guessing that the only Quebecers you know are anglophone and probably over 35-40 years old. Not the most representative slice of the province's population...

 

[Nascar_James]

I still cannot for the life of me figure out the voting patterns of the folks living in Quebec. I do know a lot of them (especially the older folks) are conservative by nature (they are against abortion, attend church weekly, are pro-tax cuts and against excessive government social spending, pro death penalty, want to preseve our traditional definition of marriage ...etc). SO WHY IN SAM HILL DO THEY KEEP VOTING FOR THE LIBERALS??? I STILL DON'T GET IT??? Here in the U.S. there is no mystery, you know that the average individual will vote for the party that he/she represents.

Whoa! I don't when's the last time you came to Quebec but the type of conservative people you are describing are pretty rare around here! I think it's pretty safe to say that a strong majority of Quebecers are for the right to abortion. There is literally no social debate on death penalty up here, believe me. Quebec is pretty much the most tolerant province towards homosexuals and quite open on the marriage issue. As for attending church weekly... :lol: HAHAHA! Our churches are literally emptying themselves. Seriously, almost only the old folks go to church and they just keep dying and dying... Unless there is major turn of events, the church in Quebec is heading towards no man's land.

The only significant conservative trend in Quebec has to do with money, money and money. Taxes, social spending etc. Moral conservatism is definetly not strong here in Quebec.

According to your previous posts, I am guessing that the only Quebecers you know are anglophone and probably over 35-40 years old. Not the most representative slice of the province's population...

I have lived in Quebec for over 3 decades so I am somewhat familiar with the territory. I do know that around the Quebec City area, a lot of the older folks living there do share my views on the issues noted above.

 

[s_lone]

I still cannot for the life of me figure out the voting patterns of the folks living in Quebec. I do know a lot of them (especially the older folks) are conservative by nature (they are against abortion, attend church weekly, are pro-tax cuts and against excessive government social spending, pro death penalty, want to preseve our traditional definition of marriage ...etc). SO WHY IN SAM HILL DO THEY KEEP VOTING FOR THE LIBERALS??? I STILL DON'T GET IT??? Here in the U.S. there is no mystery, you know that the average individual will vote for the party that he/she represents.

Whoa! I don't when's the last time you came to Quebec but the type of conservative people you are describing are pretty rare around here! I think it's pretty safe to say that a strong majority of Quebecers are for the right to abortion. There is literally no social debate on death penalty up here, believe me. Quebec is pretty much the most tolerant province towards homosexuals and quite open on the marriage issue. As for attending church weekly... :lol: HAHAHA! Our churches are literally emptying themselves. Seriously, almost only the old folks go to church and they just keep dying and dying... Unless there is major turn of events, the church in Quebec is heading towards no man's land.

The only significant conservative trend in Quebec has to do with money, money and money. Taxes, social spending etc. Moral conservatism is definetly not strong here in Quebec.

According to your previous posts, I am guessing that the only Quebecers you know are anglophone and probably over 35-40 years old. Not the most representative slice of the province's population...

I have lived in Quebec for over 3 decades so I am somewhat familiar with the territory. I do know that around the Quebec City area, a lot of the older folks living there do share my views on the issues noted above.

Don't get me wrong, you are right in saying that there is a significant conservativism in the Quebec city area, but I insist on saying that this conservatism is a lot more money-oriented than moral-oriented. I am younger than you but I've lived in Quebec city all my life (25 years) and I have the chance to have been raised in a perfectly bilingual environment, giving me the opportunity to grasp two sides of the same story. According to your previous posts, I doubt that you are in a position to feel the pulse and vibe of the Francophone population. The type of moral conservatism you speak of is clearly not very lively in Quebec city, which is predominantly French speaking.

The only form of moral conservativism I can feel right now has to do with teenagers and sexuality. Many are realising the fact that young ones are being exposed to sex a lot earlier than before and their are some serious questionning about that subject.

(To me, being for death penalty is hardly morally conservative but that's another issue...)

 

[LeftistPatriot]

The PQ would form a landslide majority government

A lot can change during an electoral campaign. Will the PQ win? Maybe. But don't forget they will run on a sovereignist agenda and that doesn't reach everyone, not even half the people of Québec.

The ADQ, on the other hand, has their new autonomist agenda that might be able to get a larger support once people learn about it. And their plans are already clearer than the PQ's.

the ADQ would carry the old Union NAZIonal

L'Union Nationale wasn't the best party ever but to say Nazi... and you can thank them for electrifying Québec.

hard time to find a leader ? maybe you should read the news sometimes. right now there is Marois, André Boiclair, Louis Bernard, Hugues Cormier, Jean Ouimet should announced his candidature monday, and probably Richard Legendre later this week...

I don't think any of them has the stature of a leader.

But ADQ will probably get way more votes this time...

It is very likely they'll get the pro-Canada vote and maybe the votes of those who used to see sovereignty as the only way to achieve more autonomy.

He is a much better option than the PQ, I tell you that.

It's not hard to be a better choice than the PQ. PQ is synonymous with poor management.

I hate the liberals but I hate the PQ with a burning passion (and I used to like them when I was sovereignist... silly me )

Have you ever considered the fact that Charest has to fix the problems left over from the PQ?

You mean there were problems when the Saint-Péquistes left office?

Landry & Marois have indebted the province and left some loopholes. Yet, rarely does the media talk about that.

What debt? Do you mean that 118 billion dollars thingy that increases every year and suffocates our public finances?

Eliminating the debt should be one of our top priorities, way above this sovereignty people are tired of hearing about.

Marois is far from winning the leadership of the PQ, i dont like her either...

Nothing is ever certain in politics (except that the Bloc will never take power in Ottawa). She could win. My francophone, autonomist and Canada loving self would like it if she won but I don't think she will.

Maurice Duplessis was a Hitler sympathiser in that he opposed WW2, used much of the same anti-semitic proaganda used by France's Petainistes, and allowed Vichy traitors to gain refugee status in Quebec and escape execution in post-war France.

And that's just foreign policy.

 

[Nascar_James]

I still cannot for the life of me figure out the voting patterns of the folks living in Quebec. I do know a lot of them (especially the older folks) are conservative by nature (they are against abortion, attend church weekly, are pro-tax cuts and against excessive government social spending, pro death penalty, want to preseve our traditional definition of marriage ...etc). SO WHY IN SAM HILL DO THEY KEEP VOTING FOR THE LIBERALS??? I STILL DON'T GET IT??? Here in the U.S. there is no mystery, you know that the average individual will vote for the party that he/she represents.

Whoa! I don't when's the last time you came to Quebec but the type of conservative people you are describing are pretty rare around here! I think it's pretty safe to say that a strong majority of Quebecers are for the right to abortion. There is literally no social debate on death penalty up here, believe me. Quebec is pretty much the most tolerant province towards homosexuals and quite open on the marriage issue. As for attending church weekly... :lol: HAHAHA! Our churches are literally emptying themselves. Seriously, almost only the old folks go to church and they just keep dying and dying... Unless there is major turn of events, the church in Quebec is heading towards no man's land.

The only significant conservative trend in Quebec has to do with money, money and money. Taxes, social spending etc. Moral conservatism is definetly not strong here in Quebec.

According to your previous posts, I am guessing that the only Quebecers you know are anglophone and probably over 35-40 years old. Not the most representative slice of the province's population...

I have lived in Quebec for over 3 decades so I am somewhat familiar with the territory. I do know that around the Quebec City area, a lot of the older folks living there do share my views on the issues noted above.

Don't get me wrong, you are right in saying that there is a significant conservativism in the Quebec city area, but I insist on saying that this conservatism is a lot more money-oriented than moral-oriented. I am younger than you but I've lived in Quebec city all my life (25 years) and I have the chance to have been raised in a perfectly bilingual environment, giving me the opportunity to grasp two sides of the same story. According to your previous posts, I doubt that you are in a position to feel the pulse and vibe of the Francophone population. The type of moral conservatism you speak of is clearly not very lively in Quebec city, which is predominantly French speaking.

The only form of moral conservativism I can feel right now has to do with teenagers and sexuality. Many are realising the fact that young ones are being exposed to sex a lot earlier than before and their are some serious questionning about that subject.

(To me, being for death penalty is hardly morally conservative but that's another issue...)

Quebec city? That is impresessive. I know for a fact that it is almost impossible to grow up in an English only environment there (definitely not like the West Island that's for sure ...), but I had no idea that you can actually grow up in a bilingual environment in Quebec city. Isn't the city over 95% French Speaking?

 

[s_lone]

I still cannot for the life of me figure out the voting patterns of the folks living in Quebec. I do know a lot of them (especially the older folks) are conservative by nature (they are against abortion, attend church weekly, are pro-tax cuts and against excessive government social spending, pro death penalty, want to preseve our traditional definition of marriage ...etc). SO WHY IN SAM HILL DO THEY KEEP VOTING FOR THE LIBERALS??? I STILL DON'T GET IT??? Here in the U.S. there is no mystery, you know that the average individual will vote for the party that he/she represents.

Whoa! I don't when's the last time you came to Quebec but the type of conservative people you are describing are pretty rare around here! I think it's pretty safe to say that a strong majority of Quebecers are for the right to abortion. There is literally no social debate on death penalty up here, believe me. Quebec is pretty much the most tolerant province towards homosexuals and quite open on the marriage issue. As for attending church weekly... :lol: HAHAHA! Our churches are literally emptying themselves. Seriously, almost only the old folks go to church and they just keep dying and dying... Unless there is major turn of events, the church in Quebec is heading towards no man's land.

The only significant conservative trend in Quebec has to do with money, money and money. Taxes, social spending etc. Moral conservatism is definetly not strong here in Quebec.

According to your previous posts, I am guessing that the only Quebecers you know are anglophone and probably over 35-40 years old. Not the most representative slice of the province's population...

I have lived in Quebec for over 3 decades so I am somewhat familiar with the territory. I do know that around the Quebec City area, a lot of the older folks living there do share my views on the issues noted above.

Don't get me wrong, you are right in saying that there is a significant conservativism in the Quebec city area, but I insist on saying that this conservatism is a lot more money-oriented than moral-oriented. I am younger than you but I've lived in Quebec city all my life (25 years) and I have the chance to have been raised in a perfectly bilingual environment, giving me the opportunity to grasp two sides of the same story. According to your previous posts, I doubt that you are in a position to feel the pulse and vibe of the Francophone population. The type of moral conservatism you speak of is clearly not very lively in Quebec city, which is predominantly French speaking.

The only form of moral conservativism I can feel right now has to do with teenagers and sexuality. Many are realising the fact that young ones are being exposed to sex a lot earlier than before and their are some serious questionning about that subject.

(To me, being for death penalty is hardly morally conservative but that's another issue...)

Quebec city? That is impresessive. I know for a fact that it is almost impossible to grow up in an English only environment there (definitely not like the West Island that's for sure ...), but I had no idea that you can actually grow up in a bilingual environment in Quebec city. Isn't the city over 95% French Speaking?

I am indeed very lucky to have been raised in a bilingual family. My father's family originates from Ireland and has been in Quebec city for a few generations now. My real name is Sean Lonergan... Doesn't sound really Quebecois eh... But my mother's family is a typical French Canadian one. So I speak English with my father and French with my mother. When we are all together we pretty much switch from one to another. "Frenglish" if you like...

I am pretty much the only one in my family who is really interested in sovereignty. My father is very much interested in Irish history and he does have a certain sympathy for French Canadian nationalism but would not vote YES. But we would certainly both be happy if Canada officially broke it's symbolic ties to English monarchy!

There is an Anglophone community here in Quebec city but it is obviously not as important as Montreal's.

 

[Nascar_James]

I still cannot for the life of me figure out the voting patterns of the folks living in Quebec. I do know a lot of them (especially the older folks) are conservative by nature (they are against abortion, attend church weekly, are pro-tax cuts and against excessive government social spending, pro death penalty, want to preseve our traditional definition of marriage ...etc). SO WHY IN SAM HILL DO THEY KEEP VOTING FOR THE LIBERALS??? I STILL DON'T GET IT??? Here in the U.S. there is no mystery, you know that the average individual will vote for the party that he/she represents.

Whoa! I don't when's the last time you came to Quebec but the type of conservative people you are describing are pretty rare around here! I think it's pretty safe to say that a strong majority of Quebecers are for the right to abortion. There is literally no social debate on death penalty up here, believe me. Quebec is pretty much the most tolerant province towards homosexuals and quite open on the marriage issue. As for attending church weekly... :lol: HAHAHA! Our churches are literally emptying themselves. Seriously, almost only the old folks go to church and they just keep dying and dying... Unless there is major turn of events, the church in Quebec is heading towards no man's land.

The only significant conservative trend in Quebec has to do with money, money and money. Taxes, social spending etc. Moral conservatism is definetly not strong here in Quebec.

According to your previous posts, I am guessing that the only Quebecers you know are anglophone and probably over 35-40 years old. Not the most representative slice of the province's population...

I have lived in Quebec for over 3 decades so I am somewhat familiar with the territory. I do know that around the Quebec City area, a lot of the older folks living there do share my views on the issues noted above.

Don't get me wrong, you are right in saying that there is a significant conservativism in the Quebec city area, but I insist on saying that this conservatism is a lot more money-oriented than moral-oriented. I am younger than you but I've lived in Quebec city all my life (25 years) and I have the chance to have been raised in a perfectly bilingual environment, giving me the opportunity to grasp two sides of the same story. According to your previous posts, I doubt that you are in a position to feel the pulse and vibe of the Francophone population. The type of moral conservatism you speak of is clearly not very lively in Quebec city, which is predominantly French speaking.

The only form of moral conservativism I can feel right now has to do with teenagers and sexuality. Many are realising the fact that young ones are being exposed to sex a lot earlier than before and their are some serious questionning about that subject.

(To me, being for death penalty is hardly morally conservative but that's another issue...)

Quebec city? That is impresessive. I know for a fact that it is almost impossible to grow up in an English only environment there (definitely not like the West Island that's for sure ...), but I had no idea that you can actually grow up in a bilingual environment in Quebec city. Isn't the city over 95% French Speaking?

I am indeed very lucky to have been raised in a bilingual family. My father's family originates from Ireland and has been in Quebec city for a few generations now. My real name is Sean Lonergan... Doesn't sound really Quebecois eh... But my mother's family is a typical French Canadian one. So I speak English with my father and French with my mother. When we are all together we pretty much switch from one to another. "Frenglish" if you like...

I am pretty much the only one in my family who is really interested in sovereignty. My father is very much interested in Irish history and he does have a certain sympathy for French Canadian nationalism but would not vote YES. But we would certainly both be happy if Canada officially broke it's symbolic ties to English monarchy!

There is an Anglophone community here in Quebec city but it is obviously not as important as Montreal's.

Irish ... your dad must be Catholic then. As a fellow Catholic to another, you are pretty fortunate to have picked up both English and French. Had you grown up in the western part of Montreal, it would have been much harder to pick up French.

 

[s_lone]

Irish ... your dad must be Catholic then. As a fellow Catholic to another, you are pretty fortunate to have picked up both English and French. Had you grown up in the western part of Montreal, it would have been much harder to pick up French.

My dad is catholic indeed. Technically I am too but I can't say I consider myself as an active part of the family. Like I said, dogmatic religion is very weak among Quebecers (especially francophones) and I have not escaped this important social reality. I don't absolutely reject my catholic background though... But I consider myself a christian and that is all. To me, it is a total mystery why christianity is so divided and I just can't accept these divisions. All christians should focus on the very simple and beautiful message of Christ and cut the dogmatic crap that the church has accumulated over the years.

Coming back to the subject of Quebec, one might ask me why my desire for unity isn't reflected in my political beliefs. To that I can only say that ideally, I do not want to leave Canada. What I really want is a total reconfiguration of our Canadian federation which would give Quebec (and all other provinces) the independance it wants. I want Canada to be a confederation, not a federation. The difference is subtle but important. DIfferent nations (I insist on the word nation) can exist within a confederation.

For example, if Canada would have decided to join the US in Irak (thank God it didn't...), I would expect Quebec to be sovereign enough to say: the hell with your war, we're not going.

Today is Quebec's national day so happy St-Jean-Baptiste to all those who care!

 

[Numure]

RE: If Quebec were to hav

I'm still cring cause Duceppe didnt switch

 

[Numure]

RE: If Quebec were to hav

Moral conservatism is none existant in Québec.

 

[Booh]

Re: RE: If Quebec were to hav

Moral conservatism is none existant in Québec.

Morally conservative people are a minority here but they do exist. Their number is probably a lot higher than most people would believe.

 

[Jo Canadian]