If Canada could choose

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Chewy, I agree that Canadians are fascinated by the debates and upcoming election, and for very good reason. Everybody in the world waits with bated breath because we're all far more influenced by the results of the US election than we are by any election of our own.

"Instead we have an epic struggle of the benign and the incompetent." I think you underestimate the strength of Kerry. I might be wrong about him, but I do believe he plays it cautiously because that is what the times demand: milquetoast statements, mediocrity appeals to the public. I think too that Bush is more dangerous than incompetent, not because he has a discernable brain that can cause harm but rather that he is surrounded by very powerful, smart and ruthless men.

An example of what I mean when I refer to mediocrity being the desired trait in politics today: There was a poll (somewhere) which asked, 'who would you rather have a beer with'. Since when did the public start worrying about having their leader be 'one of the guys'?

To poll Canadians is good, yes, if you post the results here for discussion. I maintain that the Americans should vote on the poll in the American forum, rather than dangling the results of the Canadian reaction.

I like what you said, that the US is on the edge of chaos. Strange times, indeed. The US on the brink... of something. Emotions aren't just running high down there, they're at some kind of breaking point.

 

[Chewy]

Re: RE: If Canada could choose

Chewy, I agree that Canadians are fascinated by the debates and upcoming election, and for very good reason. Everybody in the world waits with bated breath because we're all far more influenced by the results of the US election than we are by any election of our own.

"Instead we have an epic struggle of the benign and the incompetent." I think you underestimate the strength of Kerry. I might be wrong about him, but I do believe he plays it cautiously because that is what the times demand: milquetoast statements, mediocrity appeals to the public. I think too that Bush is more dangerous than incompetent, not because he has a discernable brain that can cause harm but rather that he is surrounded by very powerful, smart and ruthless men.

An example of what I mean when I refer to mediocrity being the desired trait in politics today: There was a poll (somewhere) which asked, 'who would you rather have a beer with'. Since when did the public start worrying about having their leader be 'one of the guys'?

To poll Canadians is good, yes, if you post the results here for discussion. I maintain that the Americans should vote on the poll in the American forum, rather than dangling the results of the Canadian reaction.

I like what you said, that the US is on the edge of chaos. Strange times, indeed. The US on the brink... of something. Emotions aren't just running high down there, they're at some kind of breaking point.

I like the question you ask who would you rather have a beer with? I'll post that in the US forum.

I have heard sputtering from the Kerry camp that he has just begun his fight. That they folks that churn his spin have just begun winding it up but however I don’t see him as in the same league as JFK or even Bill Clinton. I have serious reservations that the Democrats have cultivated strong leadership within their ranks.

I don’t see Bush a mindless fool but I do see him as being an incompetent President, he isolated his country and waged a needless war. I don’t necessarily oppose Bush as much as I do his war.

I have made a number of posts asking young people to sign up a conscientious objectors and look into their GI Rights.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Re: RE: If Canada could choose

I have heard sputtering from the Kerry camp that he has just begun his fight. That they folks that churn his spin have just begun winding it up but however I don’t see him as in the same league as JFK or even Bill Clinton.

Look at it this way, if Kerry had come out swinging early in the game it would not have had nearly the effect that it is now having. We're nearly at the election, now is the right time for Kerry to seize the imagination of a jaded electorate, and he is showing signs of doing just that.

Another thing to consider: Would JFK stand a chance of being elected if he was running today? I think not. It is hard to present yourself as strong and inspirational to an audience stunned by the modern day malaise of reality tv and shock-and-awe. Firstly, if you come across as strong you are suspect and somehow strange (ie Dean and his primal scream). Secondly, if you voice a strong opinion of any kind, the spin doctors change it into something evil, sick and wrong. You cannot win. Kerry is doing an admirable job with the arena in which he must play.

 

[fubbleskag]

the real question is, does a brick of cheese know that osama bin laden attacked us, and not saddam hussein?

 

[Chewy]

Re: RE: If Canada could choose

Look at it this way, if Kerry had come out swinging early in the game it would not have had nearly the effect that it is now having. We're nearly at the election, now is the right time for Kerry to seize the imagination of a jaded electorate, and he is showing signs of doing just that.

I see that however I still contest that Kerry's best selling feature is that he is not Bush. Folks in the Nader flock are willing to sacrifice their vote from who they would be wanting to have in the Oval office to voting to oust Bush. Bush on the other hand as a very strong base of support, most incumbents do in the US but the time its is a little different. It’s amazing to witness the high level of rationalizing and excuse making the Bushies do. It is very reminiscent of behavior of an abused spouse, they work very hard to insure that Bush is shielded from accountability.

Another thing to consider: Would JFK stand a chance of being elected if he was running today? I think not. It is hard to present yourself as strong and inspirational to an audience stunned by the modern day malaise of reality tv and shock-and-awe. Firstly, if you come across as strong you are suspect and somehow strange (ie Dean and his primal scream). Secondly, if you voice a strong opinion of any kind, the spin doctors change it into something evil, sick and wrong. You cannot win. Kerry is doing an admirable job with the arena in which he must play.

I totally agree it’s the spin doctors that win these wars for Presidency, with a combination of peripheral attacks and promotions direct promotions. The Media in the US I have found is also part of this machinery, it is very difficult for the average voter to find a reliable source of information.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Re: RE: If Canada could choose

I see that however I still contest that Kerry's best selling feature is that he is not Bush. Folks in the Nader flock are willing to sacrifice their vote from who they would be wanting to have in the Oval office to voting to oust Bush. Bush on the other hand as a very strong base of support, most incumbents do in the US but the time its is a little different. It’s amazing to witness the high level of rationalizing and excuse making the Bushies do. It is very reminiscent of behavior of an abused spouse, they work very hard to insure that Bush is shielded from accountability.

Very nicely put. I think, though, that the Bushies have always known what Dubya is (in)capable of being/doing. I suspec that it is a feature, not a bug.

Here's a notion, one that struck me during the debate: Bush started out as nothing more than a puppet for the party, but it seems to me that he has slowly started to believe his own spin and now sees himself as a Great Leader. This is getting everybody in trouble, because he is not always taking orders, he is beginning to resent being treated as a child by the President-in-Reality, Dick Cheney. He might be getting out of control, and this is a good thing, it lets the public see the real Bush in his bright primary crayon colours.

The Media in the US I have found is also part of this machinery, it is very difficult for the average voter to find a reliable source of information.

Yes, I think the media is by far the biggest culprit here. The wise voter is, for balance, looking out of the country for his news, or taking a look at a wide variety of media, and sifting through the sometimes good but sometimes suspect 'alternate' news sources online. Yet the bulk of voters, sadly, is getting the news from one highly dubious source: FoxNews. The spin doctors have done a good job of convincing the public that other media is liberal-leaning and Fox is (gag) 'fair and balanced'. Amazing times.

 

[passpatoo]

After the first Bush/ Kerry debate, a Globe and Mail article reported that the language used by the two was at approx. a grade 6 to 7 level and that this is what thier handlers would have advised them to do.

Reading this article, it occured to me that simple mindedness is encouraged and even lauded in North American society, and especially the US. A few months ago I watched part of an interview with the president and his wife, and he took great pride in being a "plain and simple guy". If you know anything about him, you know this is far from the truth, but it is nevertheless the image he wanted to portray in order to be seen favourably by the public. Similarily, I've read other articles criticizing Kerry for being too intelectual!! We, north of the border are not immune to this attitude, I've seen similar criticisms regarding Canadian public figures. What have we come to when we cherish dumness and consider intelligence a fault?

I know that I'm echoing what is already being said here, but it struck a chord with me when first read the Globe article, then saw this discussion dancing around the same subject, from the same source. (presidential debate)

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: If Canada could choos

It's all part of the anti-intellectualism of the corporate structure, passpatoo. Look at what has happened to universities since the time of Reagan...they've become much more task-based. Arts programs are frowned on, business programs are lauded, science programs are funded (and largely controlled) by industry.

None of that is an accident. Corporations have always been threatened by people who think for themselves. Starting in 1980 they had their boys in charge though, and two things became stylish...to be greedy and to be stupid.

The USA's founding fathers couldn't get a gig as White House aids today, Abe Lincoln would stay in his law practice, JFK and RFK would be relegated to the outer fringes of the Democrats. They would all be too intellectual for American politics.

Canada is going the same way under the same influences. Remember Trudeau? He wouldn't have a shot today because he thought too much, actually considered things. It's got a lot to do with how and why Joe Clark got run out of politics. Nobody would give Tommy Douglas a microphone in today's world.

Look who we have at the top though...Martin, Harper, Bush, Cheney, Kerry...corporate lackeys to a man. None are intellectuals in any real sense of the word. They all promote a version of the corporate line and they all get funding because they will not ever come up with ideas that might threaten corporations.

 

[Andem]

LOL. Looking at that poll is amusing. What was the reaction on your posting at your American forum, Chewey? Let us know

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: If Canada could choos

Somebody actually chose Bush though...I'm a little surprised.

 

[undergradNITZ]

i chose the brick of cheese...mmmm cheese...

 

[Chewy]

Re: RE: If Canada could choose

LOL. Looking at that poll is amusing. What was the reaction on your posting at your American forum, Chewey? Let us know

It was oddly well received, I mean there was some folks that felt it was abrasive however I reminded them it was not an attack on the US but how we here see those running for office. I also attached some comments that were posted. Over all I think that is was pretty positive Republicans and Democrats agreed that better care needs to be taken in grooming future Presidents. There were a few conflicts about whether Canadians should have much of a say in US politics. That was until two rather interesting points were made, one tat the US president is seen by the US as the leader of the “Free world” and that the US Constitution has an open clause that lets Canada become part of the US unconditionally at any time. No other country has this option. Pretty interesting stuff. Questions were also raised as to Canada would support Kerry with troops in Iraq. Over all it was rather good thanks for the help.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: If Canada could choos

When they start questioning our say in US politics, I always like to point out the pressures exerted on our politicians by them. Generally just posting whatever bit of hog swallop came out of Cellucci's mouth last is enough to gain at least some support.

 

[undergradNITZ]

so...what, the birck of cheese is gona win?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: If Canada could choos

Well, Noam Chomsky ain't runnin' , so the brick of cheese is the world's best hope.

 

[Chewy]

Re: RE: If Canada could choos

Well, Noam Chomsky ain't runnin' , so the brick of cheese is the world's best hope.

Amen to that. Noam should be Canadian.