Human Wrongs, Not Rights Abused Here By the Veil
- Thread starter dumpthemonarchy
- Start date
A witness' character and actions are assessed by the judge. Not just anybody's testimony is accepted. The testimony of two women equals that of one man in contract cases since generally it is men who are involved in these matters and have their minds on these issues, whereas women and very busy dealing with children and have other worries and therefore may forget. And as I said before, you don't necessarily need the testimony of four male witnesses in adultery or (in particular) rape cases when there is solid evidence that proves a defendant's guilt or innocence. So your argument falls flat, and shows how little of Shari'ah you know. If you sincerely would like to learn about Shari'ah, I can recommend some reading material.
Edit: Sorry, but I wanted to add something else. There are two verses from Surat al-Noor that I think are relevant to this issue, and they are:
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]"And for those who accuse their wives, but have no witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies (i.e. testifies four times) by Allâh that he is one of those who speak the truth.[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial] And the fifth (testimony) (should be) the invoking of the Curse of Allâh on him if he be of those who tell a lie (against her)."
[/FONT]
- Surat al-Noor, Ayaat 6-7
And in reference to these two verses is this hadith:
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]On Friday night we were staying in the mosque when one of the Ansar came there and said: If someone finds his wife with a man, and he speaks about it, you lash him, and if he kills, you kill him, and if he keeps quiet, he has to consume his anger. By Allah, I shall definitely ask about him from Allah's Messenger [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial][FONT=Helvetica, Arial]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial]. On the following day he came to Allah's Messenger [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial][FONT=Helvetica, Arial]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial] and asked him thus: If a man were to find a man with his wife and if he were to talk about it, you would lash him; and if he killed, you would kill him, and if he were to keep quiet, he would consume his anger. Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: Allah, solve (this problem), and he began to supplicate (before Him). Then the verses pertaining to li'an were revealed: "Those who accuse their wives and have no witness except themselves" (24:6). Then he and his wife came into the presence of Allah's Messenger [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial][FONT=Helvetica, Arial]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial], and they invoked curses (in order to testify their claim). The man swore four times in the name of Allah that he was one of the truthful and then invoked a curse for the fifth time, saying: Let there be the curse of Allah upon him if he were among the liars. Then she began to invoke a curse. Allah's Messenger [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial][FONT=Helvetica, Arial]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial] said to her: Just wait (and curse after considering it), but she refused and invoked a curse. When she turned away, he (Allah's Apostle) said: It seems that this woman shall give birth to a curly-haired black child. And so she did give birth to a curly-haired black child.[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]-[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial]Sahih Muslim #3564, Narrated Abdullah[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]There is also a hadith that describes an incident during the time that 'Umar ibn Khattab (radiy 'Allahu anhu) was the Khalif, where four men were testifying that they saw two people commit adultery, and 'Umar (radiy 'Allahu anhu) asked them again if they swore by their testimonies, and one of them faltered and said he wasn't a hundred percent sure, so 'Umar (radiy 'Allahu anhu) either beat that one guy or all four (I can't remember which) for almost slandering the two Muslims in question.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Amatullaah..... illuminate us from your perspective. I would suggest though that you try to without relying too heavily on the Koran aside from dispelling misquotes. Injecting too much "religion" into the debate will quickley religate you to the sidelines as a religious zealot. There are quite a few athiests/agnostics here that consider anything religious, be it Islam or Christianity, to be nothing more than superstition.
it is men who are involved in these matters and have their minds on these issues, whereas women and very busy dealing with children and have other worries and therefore may forget.
With respect Amatullaah, that argument is pure, unadulterated tripe. But I have heard it before; I wonder if you get your talking points from Imams and Mullahs. Women will forget? How about if a woman is unmarried, doesn’t have any children? Will she still forget? How about the man is a single dad, looking after three children. Will he still remember?
Indeed, this argument, that a woman will forget relegates women to permanent subhuman status. So what you are saying is that it doesn’t matter how educated, how sophisticated a woman is she will still forget, whether she has any children or not. Somebody like Hillary Clinton or Michelle Obama (or Mrs. Thatcher, former PM of UK, or Mrs. Gandhi, former PM of India) will forget.
On the other hand, a man may be busy looking after children and holding a full time job, when he has any time, he may be fond of his drink, he may be 90 years old, none of that matters, he won’t forget. If that does not establish permanent superior status of man, permanent inferior status of a woman, I don’t know what it does.
With respect Amatullaah, that argument is pure, unadulterated tripe. But I have heard it before; I wonder if you get your talking points from Imams and Mullahs. Women will forget? How about if a woman is unmarried, doesn’t have any children? Will she still forget? How about the man is a single dad, looking after three children. Will he still remember?
Indeed, this argument, that a woman will forget relegates women to permanent subhuman status. So what you are saying is that it doesn’t matter how educated, how sophisticated a woman is she will still forget, whether she has any children or not. Somebody like Hillary Clinton or Michelle Obama (or Mrs. Thatcher, former PM of UK, or Mrs. Gandhi, former PM of India) will forget.
On the other hand, a man may be busy looking after children and holding a full time job, when he has any time, he may be fond of his drink, he may be 90 years old, none of that matters, he won’t forget. If that does not establish permanent superior status of man, permanent inferior status of a woman, I don’t know what it does.
gerryh, I'm not sure what you would like me to 'illuminate' you on, and morever, I'm not sure how you can expect me to respond from my perspective as a Muslim without referencing Islam or my Islamic beliefs, central to which is the Qur'an. Could you be more specific, please?
Also I'm still waiting for the moderators to approve that post.
SirJosephPorter, I will continue to respond to you as long as you're not simply looking for an argument. I don't like arguing for argument's sake, and I'd like that to be clear before I respond to your latest post.
First of all, I don't take talking points from anyone in particular, but especially Mullahs, who are Shi'ite clerics, and therefore obviously in opposition to my Islamic belief(s). I generally take my knowledge of Islam and belief in it from the Qur'an and the Ahadeeth, a lot of which is explained by a multitude of Islamic scholars, each with their own opinion on certain things, which I enjoy reading, analyzing, and contrasting. But at the base of that there is a certain fundamental Islamic belief that all Muslims share, despite differences of opinion on certain matters, and that is Tawheed. And I acknowledge as a former non-Muslim that wihout Tawheed, it is hard for a person to understand Islam and Shari'ah, and to have a certain predisposition to refer to anything Islamic as "tripe".
Secondly, the application of Shari'ah also includes rules on society, whose foundation is the family unit. In an Islamic society, which you can read about in books of history detailing life under the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and the Khulafat Rashidun (radiy 'Allahu anhum), women generally stay at home and take care of the kids, while men work to provide for their family and protect the women. Therefore the situations that you mentioned are generally something you would see in non-Islamic societies, and hence, Shari'ah would most likely not work there, or they would be exceptions to the rule. Yes, not all men have superb memories nor are women vapid creatures. However, when a woman's focus is her home and her children in particular, it is easy to forget the details of contract she may have witnessed some time ago, whereas the men would likely be more involved in the matter.
Here are two fatawa relating to the issue of a woman's place in Islamic society, but judging by the tone of your last post, I need to warn you that they may anger you.
It is not permissable to appoint a woman as a judge.
Ruling on appointing a woman as a judge.
Also, here is some information on the role of women in Islam.
That aside, I don't particularly respect any of the women you mentioned, so I don't think that was such a good example. Speaking from personal experience, all the Muslim women I know, including myself, agree with the stance of Shari'ah on this issue. So if you want to be indignant about it, that's okay, but don't assume that all people agree with you. I know many people who don't agree with me.
Edit: It's not my intention to be derailing this thread, so maybe we should just stick to the topic at hand and how it may affect Muslim women in Canada.
Also I'm still waiting for the moderators to approve that post.
SirJosephPorter, I will continue to respond to you as long as you're not simply looking for an argument. I don't like arguing for argument's sake, and I'd like that to be clear before I respond to your latest post.
First of all, I don't take talking points from anyone in particular, but especially Mullahs, who are Shi'ite clerics, and therefore obviously in opposition to my Islamic belief(s). I generally take my knowledge of Islam and belief in it from the Qur'an and the Ahadeeth, a lot of which is explained by a multitude of Islamic scholars, each with their own opinion on certain things, which I enjoy reading, analyzing, and contrasting. But at the base of that there is a certain fundamental Islamic belief that all Muslims share, despite differences of opinion on certain matters, and that is Tawheed. And I acknowledge as a former non-Muslim that wihout Tawheed, it is hard for a person to understand Islam and Shari'ah, and to have a certain predisposition to refer to anything Islamic as "tripe".
Secondly, the application of Shari'ah also includes rules on society, whose foundation is the family unit. In an Islamic society, which you can read about in books of history detailing life under the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and the Khulafat Rashidun (radiy 'Allahu anhum), women generally stay at home and take care of the kids, while men work to provide for their family and protect the women. Therefore the situations that you mentioned are generally something you would see in non-Islamic societies, and hence, Shari'ah would most likely not work there, or they would be exceptions to the rule. Yes, not all men have superb memories nor are women vapid creatures. However, when a woman's focus is her home and her children in particular, it is easy to forget the details of contract she may have witnessed some time ago, whereas the men would likely be more involved in the matter.
Here are two fatawa relating to the issue of a woman's place in Islamic society, but judging by the tone of your last post, I need to warn you that they may anger you.
It is not permissable to appoint a woman as a judge.
Ruling on appointing a woman as a judge.
Also, here is some information on the role of women in Islam.
That aside, I don't particularly respect any of the women you mentioned, so I don't think that was such a good example. Speaking from personal experience, all the Muslim women I know, including myself, agree with the stance of Shari'ah on this issue. So if you want to be indignant about it, that's okay, but don't assume that all people agree with you. I know many people who don't agree with me.
Edit: It's not my intention to be derailing this thread, so maybe we should just stick to the topic at hand and how it may affect Muslim women in Canada.
As a Moderator, I can say that we're still trying to figure
out what happened ourselves. None of us "human" Mod's
touched that post, but there's an automated feature that
tries to catch SPAM & swear words that is recognizes,
and something must have triggered it. To be honest, for
a while we "human" Moderators didn't notice that it had
even happened...and now we're trying to figure out why
it happened.8O
out what happened ourselves. None of us "human" Mod's
touched that post, but there's an automated feature that
tries to catch SPAM & swear words that is recognizes,
and something must have triggered it. To be honest, for
a while we "human" Moderators didn't notice that it had
even happened...and now we're trying to figure out why
it happened.8O
Amatullaah: The post you are missing should be reposted shortly.....I contacted the mods when you mentioned that it was being "moderated" as that is not the way things are usually done around here. I have been told that the "problem" has been found and hopefully rectified....welcome to CC, and I for one look forward to your views.
Here are two fatawa relating to the issue of a woman's place in Islamic society, but judging by the tone of your last post, I need to warn you that they may anger you.
Now why would that anger me, Amatullaah? It simply confirms my opinion of Islam, as being absolutely vicious to women and non believers (like me).
And I acknowledge as a former non-Muslim that wihout Tawheed, it is hard for a person to understand Islam and Shari'ah, and to have a certain predisposition to refer to anything Islamic as "tripe".
What is difficult to understand about the concept that one man equals two women? Sounds quite simple to me.
That aside, I don't particularly respect any of the women you mentioned
You, a Muslim woman, don’t respect independent minded, intelligent, articulate successful career women. Now there is a big surprise.
Speaking from personal experience, all the Muslim women I know, including myself, agree with the stance of Shari'ah on this issue.
I don’t doubt that, Amatullah. Women cooperating, willingly helping in their own subjugation by men is nothing new, there are several examples in history. Thus, during suffragette movement, many women argued passionately that women do not deserve the vote, as passionately as you argue for the proposition that one man is equal to two women.
In Hinduism, there have been several examples of women who willingly went suttee after the death of their husbands. So the fact that as a Muslim woman you believe that men are superior to women, that women are inferior, doesn’t surprise me in the least. But that doesn’t change my belief in equality of genders and that doesn’t’ change my opinion of Islam.
Now why would that anger me, Amatullaah? It simply confirms my opinion of Islam, as being absolutely vicious to women and non believers (like me).
And I acknowledge as a former non-Muslim that wihout Tawheed, it is hard for a person to understand Islam and Shari'ah, and to have a certain predisposition to refer to anything Islamic as "tripe".
What is difficult to understand about the concept that one man equals two women? Sounds quite simple to me.
That aside, I don't particularly respect any of the women you mentioned
You, a Muslim woman, don’t respect independent minded, intelligent, articulate successful career women. Now there is a big surprise.
Speaking from personal experience, all the Muslim women I know, including myself, agree with the stance of Shari'ah on this issue.
I don’t doubt that, Amatullah. Women cooperating, willingly helping in their own subjugation by men is nothing new, there are several examples in history. Thus, during suffragette movement, many women argued passionately that women do not deserve the vote, as passionately as you argue for the proposition that one man is equal to two women.
In Hinduism, there have been several examples of women who willingly went suttee after the death of their husbands. So the fact that as a Muslim woman you believe that men are superior to women, that women are inferior, doesn’t surprise me in the least. But that doesn’t change my belief in equality of genders and that doesn’t’ change my opinion of Islam.
Here is the link back to the message that disapeared on you. Just click on your name and it will take you back to it.....it is message #68.
Well, I'm not trying to change your opinion of Islam, SirJosephPorter. I'm just trying to do my best to explain Shari'ah to you. I got the impression that perhaps you were a bit hot-headed, but obviously I was wrong. However, it seems to me that you cannot see past your (I'm assuming) Canadian-instituted mindset, and therefore have to conceptualize everything through that viewpoint. The fact that you stereotype Muslim women isn't surprising, but you shouldn't go around putting words in my mouth. I don't respect the women you used as an example not because they are "independent minded, intelligent, articulate successful career women", but because I view them as enemies of Muslims and Islam. I don't believe men are 'superior' to women, nor are we women 'inferior' to men. We are simply different, and Allah Ta 'Ala has given men a certain degree of strength and power over women. But that is only in this life, as in Jannah (heaven) everyone will be happy and there will be nothing to blemish our souls. In terms of Islam, women and men are equal under the eyes of Allah Ta 'Ala, and the only thing that matters to Allah Ta 'Ala (as per verse 97 of Surat an-Nahl) is the intentions and actions of each individual.
On that note, I'll leave you with a couple more links, and I think this little sidetrack between us two can be closed. If you want to continue it, may I suggest opening a new thread? Nevertheless, please don't ever put words in my mouth again, nor speak untruths against me.
Are women equal with men in reward and punishment?
Does Islam regard men and women as equal?
On that note, I'll leave you with a couple more links, and I think this little sidetrack between us two can be closed. If you want to continue it, may I suggest opening a new thread? Nevertheless, please don't ever put words in my mouth again, nor speak untruths against me.
Are women equal with men in reward and punishment?
Does Islam regard men and women as equal?
Thank you, gerryh, but I just tried to do a quick reply to SirJosephPorter, and I got this message:
Amatullaah
Thank you for posting! Your post will not be visible until a moderator has approved it for posting.
I'm confused as to what I'm doing that setting off the automatic modding system.
Edit: Nevermind, the quick reply is showing up now for me now. Is it (#92) and post #68 (the one I suggested that you read first) showing up for you?
Amatullaah
Thank you for posting! Your post will not be visible until a moderator has approved it for posting.
I'm confused as to what I'm doing that setting off the automatic modding system.
Edit: Nevermind, the quick reply is showing up now for me now. Is it (#92) and post #68 (the one I suggested that you read first) showing up for you?
Amatullaah....I'm one of the Moderators here and I have no idea why
your posts keep tripping the Auto-Mod. I just noticed a minute or two
ago that you'd made another post. I think it might be that you're fairly
new and are posting links. Bear with us...it's a learning process for
all of us. Post # 93 hit the thread with no problem, so I'm thinking
that's the issue. Still ironing things out. Sorry.
What's happening is new to me too.:lol:
your posts keep tripping the Auto-Mod. I just noticed a minute or two
ago that you'd made another post. I think it might be that you're fairly
new and are posting links. Bear with us...it's a learning process for
all of us. Post # 93 hit the thread with no problem, so I'm thinking
that's the issue. Still ironing things out. Sorry.
What's happening is new to me too.:lol:
Yes..... if you click on your name in my post at the top of this page it will take you directly to post 68 and you can see it is there in it's entirety.... keep in mind that the automod robot can put posts on hold that have obviously racist words in them...such as the word n**ger.... that is probablt what happened to post 68 even though you did not use it in a racist manner.... robots are not very smart
Also..... if you click "settings" in the top right corner of your screen and then control panel you will see when people give you a "rep point" (red for bad, green for good) for a post that you have made.
Amatullaah, this might sound strange, but this might be a solution.
The auto-mod tripped (for whatever reason) back on post # 68 in this
thread...and now it's holding some of your posts for approval until a
Moderator checks them.
Once you get over 25 (maybe it's 50, but we'll find out) postings, this
issue should leave you alone. a quick way is with a game. Word
association is a quick way to get another 10-15 postings in, and then
we can see if that's the issue. Here's a link to click on to take you
right to it:
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/forum-games/33459-word-association-game.html
The auto-mod tripped (for whatever reason) back on post # 68 in this
thread...and now it's holding some of your posts for approval until a
Moderator checks them.
Once you get over 25 (maybe it's 50, but we'll find out) postings, this
issue should leave you alone. a quick way is with a game. Word
association is a quick way to get another 10-15 postings in, and then
we can see if that's the issue. Here's a link to click on to take you
right to it:
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/forum-games/33459-word-association-game.html
Thanks for the links, Amatullaah. If you want to discontinue the discussion, that is all right by me. But let me leave you with what I think of Islam and how the links given by you reinforce my opinion.
No one who knows the religion of Islam would say that it is the religion of equality.
I knew Islam regard women as inferior to men. This website confirms it.
the man is in charge of the woman, i.e., he is the leader and head of the household, the one who disciplines her if she goes astray.
Again, I knew that Islam says that a man has the right to beat his wife (I assume Sharia specifies the details, whether he may beat her with strap, cane, belt, how wide the cane or the strap should be etc.). But again, this website confirms it.
The Qur’aan states that the testimony of one man is equivalent to the testimony of two women.
Of course. One man is equal to two women, a woman is equal to only half a man, or subhuman.
Two women are to take the place of one man because women are lacking in reason, as Muslim narrated in his Saheeh
Indeed. Women are less intelligent, dumber, more stupid than men, hence their subhuman status in Islam.
A man has the right to issue a divorce and it is valid if he does so, but a woman does not have the right to issue a divorce.
This is I believe ‘talaq’. A man can say ‘talaq’ three times and he is divorced from the woman. Actually they use this in prostitution in Islamic countries, so I am told. Customer gets married to the prostitute, has sex with her, says ’talaq’ three times and he is on his way. A prostitute in an Islamic country may get married and divorced 20 or 25 times in a day.
And men are different in intellectual terms, for men are known for their strength of understanding and their memory as compared to women. Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men do.
Again, this confirms the subhuman status of women in Islam. I am glad to know that women like Michelle Obama or Hillary Clinton are poorer in understanding than me and have poorer memory than me.
Anyway, thanks for the links. It confirmed my opinion of Islam.
No one who knows the religion of Islam would say that it is the religion of equality.
I knew Islam regard women as inferior to men. This website confirms it.
the man is in charge of the woman, i.e., he is the leader and head of the household, the one who disciplines her if she goes astray.
Again, I knew that Islam says that a man has the right to beat his wife (I assume Sharia specifies the details, whether he may beat her with strap, cane, belt, how wide the cane or the strap should be etc.). But again, this website confirms it.
The Qur’aan states that the testimony of one man is equivalent to the testimony of two women.
Of course. One man is equal to two women, a woman is equal to only half a man, or subhuman.
Two women are to take the place of one man because women are lacking in reason, as Muslim narrated in his Saheeh
Indeed. Women are less intelligent, dumber, more stupid than men, hence their subhuman status in Islam.
A man has the right to issue a divorce and it is valid if he does so, but a woman does not have the right to issue a divorce.
This is I believe ‘talaq’. A man can say ‘talaq’ three times and he is divorced from the woman. Actually they use this in prostitution in Islamic countries, so I am told. Customer gets married to the prostitute, has sex with her, says ’talaq’ three times and he is on his way. A prostitute in an Islamic country may get married and divorced 20 or 25 times in a day.
And men are different in intellectual terms, for men are known for their strength of understanding and their memory as compared to women. Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men do.
Again, this confirms the subhuman status of women in Islam. I am glad to know that women like Michelle Obama or Hillary Clinton are poorer in understanding than me and have poorer memory than me.
Anyway, thanks for the links. It confirmed my opinion of Islam.
Stopped reading right there. There is no such right.
Usually, you are only guaranteed to see the crown prosecutor. Ever here of crime stoppers? If you call them up they do not force you to testify.
In fact it is the opposite right, the right to protect witnesses which has been fought for over centuries. You want to go back to feudalism? How ironic.
